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9 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

If you still truly believe the fans are completely infallible after this, then you are the problem. 

For fucks sake - you know she was getting hate from fans of a Netflix show she was on and not wrestling fans, right? 

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Fandom has its assholes in every group. To say that "well, THOSE fans are assholes, but not us!" is cheap bullshit. I'm sure the fans of Terrace House are saying "well, it couldn't possibly be us too, it was probably those sick 'rasslin fans who did it!" and saying they're innocent of this too. 

If there's some people who are fuckheads pulling this shit and crossing the line into flat-out bullying, then all of them need to be called out on it...and that includes the fans on this side.

Edited by SorceressKnight
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Psychological abuse is evil; fans disliking an entertainment product is not. That should be clear, and let’s not conflate the two for the sake of a weird message board crusade. It’s intellectually dishonest at the best of times, and gross at this time specifically.

This is brutally sad, and I hope everyone who cares for her are able to get the support they need. This is a tough, isolated world right now, with people unable to lean on a shoulder or get a hug in many cases. 

And sure, questions need to be asked about fandom culture writ large, and answers given. Maybe joshi needs to model itself less on idol culture (especially when so many featured wrestlers are so young); maybe twitter needs to empower users without blue checks to block abuse better. A lot of things need to improve. I don’t know half of them, I’m sure. 

But people can—and should—be better. Hopefully that manifests towards Hana’s loved ones.

Edited by Beech27
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45 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

Maybe joshi needs to model itself less on idol culture (especially when so many featured wrestlers are so young)

My general understanding is that its not modeled after idol culture. The fans don't generally have anywhere near that thought of ownership towards the wrestlers, and the companies don't seemingly try to encourage that thought process. Not to say they can't be as toxic. For exampl,e this was more from the international side than Japanese, but apparently Toni Storm got similar type of hate and death wishes from western fans when she was World of Stardom champ.

Edited by Eivion
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Guest Edwin

People who tell others to kill themselves are absolutely horrible regardless if they are a wrestling, Terrace House, F-1, football, basketball or any other kind of fan. It's just a horrible thing to do and it's ridiculous you folks are even talking about that.

Edited by Edwin
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1 hour ago, christopher.annino said:

For fucks sake - you know she was getting hate from fans of a Netflix show she was on and not wrestling fans, right? 

Meltzer has implied it was from both groups.  

He's made a couple comments, but this is what he wrote in the article about her passing.

Quote

Since that incident aired, she had been getting hate messages from people all over the world and it sent her into depression. It was getting worse in recent weeks. Because she had big shoulders for a Japanese woman because of her athletic background, even before the incident she was getting some negative reactions.

It sounds like the reality show incident was more significant.  On the other hand, mental health issues don't develop overnight.  It seems reasonable to think she had some sort of esteem/self-image issue prior to the reality show.

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There is actually a clip from that Terrace House show where she is talking to Konami and Kyona about how none of them really reveal they are pro wrestlers to men, and she even mentions how her "big shoulders" are turn off to men. I assume people picked on that and used it against her.

EDIT: Remembered that incorrectly. She mentioned wanting someone to wrap their arms around her broad shoulders. That is likely where the big shoulders insult some were using came from.

Edited by Eivion
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Making fun of someone's shoulder width. What the fucking hell? That has to be more of a cultural thing, but I'm sure there's plenty of equivalents in the US, hell maybe even that.

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2 hours ago, Ryan said:

Making fun of someone's shoulder width. What the fucking hell? That has to be more of a cultural thing, but I'm sure there's plenty of equivalents in the US, hell maybe even that.

In Japan, people comment on each other's physical appearance all the time. They'll tell you things about your appearance straight to your face. 

What happened to this girl is awful, but Terrace House is a worked reality show. That was a staged scene. I don't understand how things escalated to this point. 

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19 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

EDIT: Maybe it's harsh, but this time it is hard not to when the fans cyberbullied a wrestler into death. <Tried to delete>.

Go away. 

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13 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

In Japan, people comment on each other's physical appearance all the time. They'll tell you things about your appearance straight to your face. 

What happened to this girl is awful, but Terrace House is a worked reality show. That was a staged scene. I don't understand how things escalated to this point. 

I don't understand either. You would think the she would be laughing at the marks for getting so upset at a work.

I feel so bad for Kyoko now. I hope the best for her.

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A big part of depression is losing perspective and becoming trapped in a loop that feeds into it. I can only speak from personal experience, but I know negative things that I’d totally ignore most days can suddenly become the only thing that seem to matter, and there’s a compulsion to just keep focusing on it until it consumes me. It’s very hard to pull yourself out of that kind of tailspin alone. 

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3 hours ago, Eivion said:

Translation of a tweet from Kyoko Kimura.

As a parent, this tweet just crushes my soul. 

And Ohtani's Jacket is correct.  Ridicule of physical characteristics and body consciousness is common in Japanese culture. 

Physical deformity is something to be shunned or hidden.  They even have a word for the fear of being deformed (Shubo-kyofu), so it is regrettably understandable from a cultural standpoint why Hana didn't just shrug off dumb comments about her shoulders. 

Edited by J.T.
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56 minutes ago, (BP) said:

A big part of depression is losing perspective and becoming trapped in a loop that feeds into it. I can only speak from personal experience, but I know negative things that I’d totally ignore most days can suddenly become the only thing that seem to matter, and there’s a compulsion to just keep focusing on it until it consumes me. It’s very hard to pull yourself out of that kind of tailspin alone. 

Thanks for this. Depression of that level is not something I'm sure I have ever felt so I never quite know where those who do are coming from.

6 minutes ago, J.T. said:

As a parent, this tweet just crushes my soul. 

And Ohtani's Jacket is correct.  Ridicule of physical characteristics and body consciousness is common in Japanese culture. 

Physical deformity is something to be shunned or hidden.  They even have a word for the fear of being deformed (Shubo-kyofu), so it is regrettably understandable from a cultural standpoint why Hana didn't just shrug off dumb comments about her shoulders. 

Honestly, whenever I think of how Kyoko feels it makes me tear up inside. Same for poor Kyona who apparently was with Hana when she passed. 

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I haven't listened to WOR in forever but Dave summed up the likely outcome from this all too well (in Daveism, so I'll just paraphrase):

Quote

The problem is the people who are going to learn from this already knew the lesson and those that needed to learn the lesson probably won't. Maybe some will hopefully.

He then went on to say that the abuse he faced on Twitter was the same or more since this has happened. There is talk of people in Japan pushing for a law to criminalize cyberbullying. Laws here in Canada are present but hard to enforce and not enforced enough. I usually lean towards letting bad ideas die in sunlight but threats and wishing death upon others are less ideas and more just being awful human beings and we are getting to the point where people are just so ingrained in their mindsets that there is no willing to learn or compromise despite obvious reasons. Legal ramifications are the only way to deal with some people sadly. Having to use your actual name and location in certain forums or comment sections hasn't stopped all abuse and awful shit but I imagine it has made at least some people think twice. While we can say "we gotta do better" and move on, there are actual concrete things that need to be done like significant legal outcomes for wishing/threatening death or sending bigoted statements at people online or in person, as well as removing anonymity on social media. The last one is tricky and would have a lot of unintentional negative consequences but I think it's a price I'd be willing to pay until the day "we can be better".

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Between Shad Gaspard dying and remembering Owen last week was already depressing when thinking about wrestling.  Hana's death took it to the next level where I've just been really bummed out since finding out and watching stuff just feels hollow right now.  The only time it wasn't was when having friends over for DoN which took my mind off of it for a bit.  But major kudos to AEW for addressing it.

I won't say that I knew what Hana was all about because I only saw whatever pics and gifs that were posted here.  But she seemed really charismatic and being only 22 the world was hers for the taking.  I did appreciate the likes of Jim Valley letting us know about her and that plus many tweets showed just how sweet a person she was.  It's one of those deaths where the more you find out about it the more depressing it was.  I feel horrible for Kairi for seeing the since deleted pictures Hana put up and also feel for those that raced to try and save her.  And I saw in the Joshi thread that some here noticed at that time too so it was sad seeing the timeline for all this.

As for social media it can fuck off forever for all I care.  I rarely post on Twitter and just see people I like post their thoughts on things.  I couldn't care less about responses unless it's people I like going back and forth on something.  One thing I do like is that Japan is considering making tweets like the ones Hana received to be illegal and up for prosecution.  I'm sure there's a lot of red tape to go through but I hope they get that done.  It'll be too late for her but if it helps to ensure others there don't go through the same shit then good.  I would love to see that happen in the US but for many reasons don't see that happening.

EDIT:  Since it seems she was getting a lot of shit due to that moment on the reality show has anybody from the show said anything about this?  I feel they should definitely address it in some way and maybe reconsider how they do things with the rest of the show (assuming it's still going to air at some point)

Edited by NikoBaltimore
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