YOUR ALL-NEW WRESTLING BOOK THREAD

[Mister TV]

20 hours ago, zendragon said:

Yhea Vince had the smallest geographical area but the most people in is territory, plus he immediately got LA to start his expansion. 

When did Nascar blow up nationally? I feel like it was a few years after WCW's death that it really got big and we started hearing "Soccer is the new NASCAR" or whatever, same with Country music. Maybe WCW's collapse predated Southern culture going mainstream by a few years and if it could have hung on it could have found a different audience 

The WWF territory when Vince took over wasn't the smallest, it was actually pretty big, New England, the Eastern half of New York State, New Jersey, Maryland, Washington DC and Pennsylvania. They ran the big cities in all of those places, but also ran the medium sized ones all the way down to random high schools in small towns.

NASCAR never really "blew up nationally" it built up its popularity from when ABC started showing races on Wide World of Sports in the early 1960's to the mid-90's when Indy Car racing shot itself in the dick and split into two leagues, by 1999 it was the only auto racing average Americans cared or even knew about.

Edited May 19, 2025 by Mister TV

[SirSmUgly]

6 hours ago, SovietShooter said:

Im not sure I buy in to any theory that WCW was too "southern", as compared to any other 80s & 90s wrestling product. Like, if you're some random person from Peoria, and you watch an episode of Nitro, what exactly screams out that it was "southern"?  Even going back to JCP or GCW before that, not even the announcers had thick typical southern accents or anything like that. 

I feel like there was a strain of what once was JCP winding through WCW all the way to the end with the exception of when Russo was in charge. The West Texas Rednecks getting over as babyfaces in 1999 would be my prime example, but even something like Dusty and Flair feuding at the death of the company got way over in front of mostly Southern towns and ended with Ric and Jeff Jarrett having their faces smushed up against a donkey's hindquarters. I feel that stuff like Barry Windham and Dean Malenko attacking each other with belts came off very Southern, especially in a chairs-and-tables era of weapon spots.

WCW also never did stop touring smaller Southern towns all the way to the end. 

That stuff is sprinkled throughout, but I think it's still there as part of the promotion's backbone. Your mileage may vary. 

Russo certainly tried to excise every bit of JCP-ness, though even his feud with Flair was about him being a New Yorker who hated Southern pro wrestling with a passion, so he didn't quite manage it. I feel that WCW in the Nitro Era went back again and again to this idea of heels trying to destroy "tradition," tradition being represented by Flair, Dusty, etc. Obviously that was true of the nWo vs. WCW, but also stuff like Russo/Flair, Bischoff/Flair (to a lesser extent than Russo/Flair), or Arn being convinced to reconstitute the Horsemen by JJ Dillon showing Arn footage of one of Arn's early JCP promos. I don't know where else I typed this, but I feel that Jeff Jarrett and Vince Russo get along so well because Jarrett sees what Russo is doing in 1998 and 1999 as a modernized version of what he knew in Memphis, so Jarrett's execution of some of that stuff feels particularly Southern to me. 

But I also think that your point about executives seeing it it as "poor and rural" is correct. 

[SovietShooter]

1 hour ago, SirSmUgly said:

even something like Dusty and Flair feuding at the death of the company got way over in front of mostly Southern towns and ended with Ric and Jeff Jarrett having their faces smushed up against a donkey's hindquarters. I feel that stuff like Barry Windham and Dean Malenko attacking each other with belts came off very Southern, especially in a chairs-and-tables era of weapon spots.

But, are these things "southern" or just a fundamental part of pro wrestling?  How much of the fiber of pro wrestling is built on "southern" traditions/concepts, versus things from other regions?  Sure, things like tar & feather, or bull rope matches can kinda seem southern, but conversely, is a "street fight" or a "TLC" match particularly metropolitan and sophisticated? 

Tangently, I hate that a lot of the regional flavor of wrestling has been homogenized out of the business.

[zendragon]

regarding the "poor and rural" context. being poor and/or from the south is still some what an acceptable form of prejudice. It also didn't help that Russo was fixated on mocking southern stereotypes with a promotion that had a largely southern and rural audience (going into the first episode of TNA you have a tag team of two guys who are dating their cousin)  

[porksweats]

2 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

I feel like there was a strain of what once was JCP winding through WCW all the way to the end with the exception of when Russo was in charge. The West Texas Rednecks getting over as babyfaces in 1999 would be my prime example, but even something like Dusty and Flair feuding at the death of the company got way over in front of mostly Southern towns and ended with Ric and Jeff Jarrett having their faces smushed up against a donkey's hindquarters. I feel that stuff like Barry Windham and Dean Malenko attacking each other with belts came off very Southern, especially in a chairs-and-tables era of weapon spots.

WCW also never did stop touring smaller Southern towns all the way to the end. 

That stuff is sprinkled throughout, but I think it's still there as part of the promotion's backbone. Your mileage may vary. 

Russo certainly tried to excise every bit of JCP-ness, though even his feud with Flair was about him being a New Yorker who hated Southern pro wrestling with a passion, so he didn't quite manage it. I feel that WCW in the Nitro Era went back again and again to this idea of heels trying to destroy "tradition," tradition being represented by Flair, Dusty, etc. Obviously that was true of the nWo vs. WCW, but also stuff like Russo/Flair, Bischoff/Flair (to a lesser extent than Russo/Flair), or Arn being convinced to reconstitute the Horsemen by JJ Dillon showing Arn footage of one of Arn's early JCP promos. I don't know where else I typed this, but I feel that Jeff Jarrett and Vince Russo get along so well because Jarrett sees what Russo is doing in 1998 and 1999 as a modernized version of what he knew in Memphis, so Jarrett's execution of some of that stuff feels particularly Southern to me. 

But I also think that your point about executives seeing it it as "poor and rural" is correct. 

You bring up a solid point about the Jarrett/Russo synergy, is Jarrett the only one who was able to deal with Russo post WWF?

[odessasteps]

I had forgotten until hearing Zellner bring it up recently was that Fox’s first nascar race was the Daytona 500 when Dale died. What a way to start a new era of coverage. 

[zendragon]

26 minutes ago, porksweats said:

You bring up a solid point about the Jarrett/Russo synergy, is Jarrett the only one who was able to deal with Russo post WWF?

I'd guess Dustin as Russo came up with a lot of the questionable Golddust stuff and then jumps to WCW in 99. I kinda wonder if Pillman would have jumped back as well.

[SirSmUgly]

1 hour ago, SovietShooter said:

But, are these things "southern" or just a fundamental part of pro wrestling?  How much of the fiber of pro wrestling is built on "southern" traditions/concepts, versus things from other regions?  Sure, things like tar & feather, or bull rope matches can kinda seem southern, but conversely, is a "street fight" or a "TLC" match particularly metropolitan and sophisticated? 

This is the million dollar question. I think taking your belt from around your Wranglers and choking a guy with it is at least 77% Southern pro wrestling, but if you disagree, I understand. 

I don't ever want my wrestling to be metropolitan or sophisticated, though!

Since you mentioned it, I'd say that TLC matches are a WWE-ized version of ECW garbage brawls (with all the ladders and table spots played for maximum spectacle), so I place them as firmly Northeastern in style, at least originally.

I personally see a big difference between a NYC/Philly-birthed TLC-style garbage brawl (chairs, stairs, tables, stuff pulled from under the ring) and a quintessentially Southern one in my view (stuff like the Tupelo Concession Stand brawl or Nastys vs. Cactus and Payne) where the brawl heads over to some area in the arena that is still viewable without needing a backstage camera or having to be shown on the big screen and they throw punches and toss each other into shit for the bulk of it, which makes something like Knobbs swinging a shovel at Cactus particularly impactful. In a TLC match, a big dive off a ladder or through a table wouldtypically be the impactful spot, not a weapon shot.

My read of these differences could be totally off, though. 

Quote

Tangently, I hate that a lot of the regional flavor of wrestling has been homogenized out of the business.

I can't agree more with you. You get insight into regional cultures by watching their shows.

On another note, and I should probably grab the book instead of writing this off the cuff, but I also recall Scott Hudson being quoted in Beyond Nitro as saying something about WCW not adapting to reflect the styles that are so popular today, which is a comment one could only make if they completely failed to acknowledge WCW centering high-paced matches with lots of flying via emphasizing the cruisers. Guys from Rey Misterio Jr. to Blitzkrieg influenced a whole generation of wrestlers. Hell, you can draw a line from Chris Kanyon's WCW run right to AEW's existence. 

[RazorbladeKiss87]

2 hours ago, SovietShooter said:

But, are these things "southern" or just a fundamental part of pro wrestling?  How much of the fiber of pro wrestling is built on "southern" traditions/concepts, versus things from other regions?  Sure, things like tar & feather, or bull rope matches can kinda seem southern, but conversely, is a "street fight" or a "TLC" match particularly metropolitan and sophisticated? 

Tangently, I hate that a lot of the regional flavor of wrestling has been homogenized out of the business.

No, but maybe a tuxedo match is?

[odessasteps]

In that era, most of the times heels wore tuxedos because it was to show they were better/richer than the fans. 

Although, tuxedo jacket and no shirt with bow tie was for your heartthrob babyfaces (fabs, fantastics). 

[AxB]

I think the main difference between "Northern USA style" pro-wrestling and "Southern USA style" pro-wrestling is, Northern Style is based around the Immortal Unstoppable dominant babyface, and Southern style is based around the scrappy underdog Babyface who survives a beating.

Consider the way that not only does every Hulk Hogan match feature a spot where he simply stops selling all of the accumulated offence he's taken and gets all fired up and unbeatable... so does every Bret Hart main event ("He was playing possum!"), every Shawn Michaels main event (the kip up of Health bar restoration), and every John Cena main event (although for some reason the WWE fans didn't accept his Super Cena routine, the way they did with every other WWE Ace).

Whereas your big babyfaces in Southern promotions, they get less shine at the start, the heel heat segment goes longer, and they typically are selling accumulated damage during their comebacks and their victory celebrations. Think like the Rock n Roll Express, or JYD in Oklahoma, or every Terry Funk babyface match ever. Think like Dusty Rhodes.

Basically the Northern style is about giving you a Superhero to admire, while the Southern style is about giving you an underdog you can relate to, and suffer alongside. 

[zendragon]

except Hogan got his routine from seeing Lawler do it in Memphis

[Hamhock]

To me, that “the underdog face is wronged” aspect of Southern-style largely is due to the touring NWA champion needing to be a constantly-traveling, just-out-of-reach heel, visiting your territory to tussle with the local hero. The same-era WWF was a self-contained universe - Bruno/Pedro/Backlund is *always* there, not disappearing for months at a time.

But when that touring heel NWA champion isn’t there, I’d argue that the various Southern territories functioned as self-contained universes with strong main-event babyface superheroes fending off armies of heels. Dusty might get screwed out of Harley’s title, but he was also a 12-time Florida champion, the 10-time Southern champion, etc.

And how would we classify any of the Texas territories in their style? And I think Memphis was just chaos-based depending on whether Lawler was a hero or a villain each year.

 

[Curt McGirt]

NWA champs were all heels (IMO even Thesz) and WWWF champs were all faces (except in transition) is something else. WWWF's champs were also (gasp) "ethnic" which... yeah, not in the NWA. Sheik even broke from them, and was of course, a northern territory-only guy after awhile.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

NWA champs were all heels (IMO even Thesz) and WWWF champs were all faces (except in transition) is something else. WWWF's champs were also (gasp) "ethnic" which... yeah, not in the NWA. Sheik even broke from them, and was of course, a northern territory-only guy after awhile.

I was under the impression NWA champs were never out-and-out heels until Terry won the belt. Thesz, Brisco, Dory etc worked subtle heel... maybe leaving holds on a bit longer than usual, working the refs etc. Gene Kiniski would probably be the only touring NWA champ who was more outright heelish, then once Terry won the dynamic began to morph permanently.

[Curt McGirt]

Yeah, looking at the lineage, I guess you're right. I retract my statement. Buddy Rogers was kind of more the exception than the rule.

[Hamhock]

Yeah, I think subtle heel/tweener is close enough for what we're all saying - the touring champ was adaptable as needed.

[zendragon]

Also Flair was the heel who would make the local hero look good, pre that (and probably Race) the NWA champ represented LEGITIMACEY , like this was a real wrestler compared to what ever else was presented on the card. Which is partially why you had so many amateur champs get the belt

[zendragon]

https://www.facebook.com/1299845179/videos/1648330649347178/

Trailer and Cover reveal for IRRESISTIBLE FORCE: THE LIFE AND TIMES OF GORILLA MONSOON

[zendragon]

Let's talk Nature Boys ; one a Master of The Ring and one the Last Real World's Champion, Two books on Ric Flair and Buddy Roger respectively both around 300 pages and by Tim Hornbaker. What is there to say about Ric Flair that hasn't been said, the parts that I found most interesting where Flair's early pre-world title work in the 70's, it's just a case where if you've been on this board for a while you know most of the big stories and a lot of his career has been covered in his own book, DVDS and other books like Nitro (which probably goes in to much more depth of his WCW run). Some interesting coverage of his (technically) 2nd WWF run from 91-93 (he worked at least one squash match back in his Thicc Ric days in the 70's).

The book on Buddy Roger's is more interesting in that he's before most of our time, I've seen the title switch with Pat O'Connor but only really new him as one of four men to hold the NWA/WCW and WWF title (Flair, Rogers, Savage and Hogan until you get Russo booking the belt in the late 90's) and the first WWF/WWE champ. The book takes its sweat time telling his story spending what feels like an inordinate amount of time on his early years and becoming a big draw working his way up to the NWA belt. (The first non-shooter to hold the title), What's interesting to me is the material about Vince Sr. maneuvering the NWA title onto him then pulling out making him the first WWWF champ (first by claiming that the Thesz lose was non title then later the fictional Rio win). He played a huge role in Capitol Wrestling becoming WWWF and then the behemoth that we are all familiar with today, and sometimes get treated as a footnote. Lots of coverage of the Bruno angle that really allowed him to become a huge draw.

Ultimately neither of these books are on my must read list but both have their moments and would recommend them if you have a particular interest in the principles. 

[odessasteps]

I didn’t know a lot of Flair’s younger life, so I thought that was interesting. 

[zendragon]

[Curt McGirt]

God I have to get that book. And if you haven't read the Sheik book, go get it. 

Really it's surprising nobody's done a Gino book yet, but even moreso, a documentary from WWE. That sounds like a no-brainer.

[odessasteps]

I thought there was a Gino book. Thought the author had been on Greg’s pod. Maybe it was just a Von Erich book. 

[Cobra Commander]

1 hour ago, Curt McGirt said:

God I have to get that book. And if you haven't read the Sheik book, go get it. 

Really it's surprising nobody's done a Gino book yet, but even moreso, a documentary from WWE. That sounds like a no-brainer.

yeah if his health had held up for even a little bit longer, Gorilla probably could have picked up at least a few nostalgia appearances

or we could pretend that the stars would have aligned to give us WWF Confidential episodes hosted by Gorilla and Bobby doing Prime Time Wrestling in-between real sportz features (although Gene was a fine host for what they originally wanted that show to be)