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UFC on Fox 22: VanZant vs. Waterson (12/17/2016) - Sacramento, CA (Golden 1 Center)


Elsalvajeloco

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In two UFC fights, she's only been in there with fighters she was way more polished than even as a natural 105er. I think Waterson vs. Angela Hill when Hill's USADA testing pool period is up would be an awesome fight. Waterson versus the winner of Grasso vs. Herrig would be nice. There are some options to get her into the mix.

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25 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

In two UFC fights, she's only been in there with fighters she was way more polished than even as a natural 105er. I think Waterson vs. Angela Hill when Hill's USADA testing pool period is up would be an awesome fight. Waterson versus the winner of Grasso vs. Herrig would be nice. There are some options to get her into the mix.

Seems like a mismatch for Angela Hill if she's being brought back.

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12 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Seems like a mismatch for Angela Hill if she's being brought back.

In favor of Hill or Waterson? Hill has improved so much since her UFC run. Andrade was a way tougher matchup especially on short notice. Kaline Medeiros would be a very tough 115er to beat in the UFC, and Hill dominated her. Hill is making the strides that you would want fighters like Kailin Curran or Paige VanZant to make. Given how good Hill has looked since going to Invicta, I would imagine she would be the slight favor in terms of betting odds against Waterson. I dunno who would win right now, but it would be a great fight style wise.

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4 minutes ago, Hail Sabin said:

Waterson would beat Hill.

Hill is a big strawweight. In the cage tonight, Paige's shoulder span compared to Waterson was insane. That's what gives me pause about Waterson competing at 115. PVZ wasn't able to to use size because the skill (and game planning) deficit was way too big. I think that's a great fight because whoever wins that fight can truly enter that fray at strawweight.

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What is next for VanZant? She is young and attractive, plus at least moderately well known after doing well in DWTS, but this loss definitely set her back a bit in the rankings. At her age its not the end of the world, and she's not a bad fighter, but skill-wise I think she has a ways to go to be any type of threat in the division. Course there are so many strawweights I'd consider in that range that finding her another opponent shouldn't be hard, although I assume they'll pick someone where she'd be the favorite.

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8 hours ago, Kevin Wilson said:

What is next for VanZant? She is young and attractive, plus at least moderately well known after doing well in DWTS, but this loss definitely set her back a bit in the rankings. At her age its not the end of the world, and she's not a bad fighter, but skill-wise I think she has a ways to go to be any type of threat in the division. Course there are so many strawweights I'd consider in that range that finding her another opponent shouldn't be hard, although I assume they'll pick someone where she'd be the favorite.

She should be opening up the main cards instead of headlining them.  I think she expected to improve tenfold going from Reno to Sacramento but it didn't happen. Most of her time at TAM, there was a lot of turnover (and disarray) there before they decided on Justin Buchholz as head coach just months ago. I think she has a better shot going to like AKA where there are plenty of coaches to help her develop. I think she needs to work on her striking and her ground game. Of course, she is already talking about pursuing other opportunities but that comes off losing. They should be allowing her to step gradually instead of throwing her in there with people far more mature than her and expecting her to step up big time.

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20 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

She should be opening up the main cards instead of headlining them.  I think she expected to improve tenfold going from Reno to Sacramento but it didn't happen. Most of her time at TAM, there was a lot of turnover (and disarray) there before they decided on Justin Buchholz as head coach just months ago. I think she has a better shot going to like AKA where there are plenty of coaches to help her develop. I think she needs to work on her striking and her ground game. Of course, she is already talking about pursuing other opportunities but that comes off losing. They should be allowing her to step gradually instead of throwing her in there with people far more mature than her and expecting her to step up big time.

A symptom of UFC's constant effort to create marketable (read: white, attractive, well-spoken) stars.  It's an unfortunate truism, but it is what it is. Why else bring in a 30-something ex-pro wrestler? Why else push the obviously not ready PVZ and Sage? UFC doesn't want a smartass Irishman or a black guy that gets busted for coke (even if he is the best fighter in the world), or an attractive Brazilian woman as the face of the company. They're pushing Gall, (also not ready, the kid is an awesome grappler, his stand-up weak), but they are definitely being forced to push him as a heel. Gall did a great job of forcing that. UFC should give up the attempts to give us their hand-picked stars and push the people that win the fucking fights. I don't watch UFC to see the runner-up of DWTS get her pretty little ass handed to her, I watch to see Joanna destroy opponents, I don't care about her looks or her English, she's a fucking warrior and they should push her to the moon. I don't watch to see a more or less part-timer (Sage) get outclassed by a hungry young fighter, I watch to see the likes of Nick Diaz and Conor knock people the fuck out.

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10 minutes ago, OSJ said:

UFC doesn't want a smartass Irishman or a black guy that gets busted for coke (even if he is the best fighter in the world), or an attractive Brazilian woman as the face of the company.

Don't think that's a fair assessment at all of what drives UFC event programming.

Michelle looked very silky indeed but agree with the earlier comment that she looked small out there -- dispatched PVS with ease but don't see Joanna making the basic errors PVS was and frankly don't see that being a pretty fight for Michelle given Joanna's physicality.

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3 minutes ago, A_K said:

Don't think that's a fair assessment at all of what drives UFC event programming.

My friend, I think that you need to take the blinders off. 

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23 minutes ago, OSJ said:

My friend, I think that you need to take the blinders off. 

Objectively, its just not true. The organisation have bent over backwards to accomodate McGregor's whims & wishes. Jones is the prodigal child that has been - and seemingly will continue to be - embraced back into the fold again & again however grave or damaging his indiscretions. Chiefly its a business that is driven by the popularity of its stars. To suggest there's much racial / cultural undertones to their event planning is, I think, off.

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I don't think it's so much who it is as it is they have been trying to put the weight behind everyone possible. I mean I still remember the UFC's announcement at UFC 126 after Jones-Bader where Rogan told JBJ that he was stepping in for his then teammate Rashad Evans against Shogun at UFC 128. Keep in mind, those Versus events months prior were basically a platform to build Jon Jones. Once they notice who is the real, legitimate talent, they go full bore. The same with McGregor because they were told a year or so in advance while he was in Cage Warriors that they HAD to sign McGregor. Bellator had a shot to sign him. WSOF could've signed him. A lot of things could have went different and changed MMA completely because he sat in CWFC for a hot minute. Once the UFC signed him and he then beat Brimage, they went all in despite all the criticism and there was a lot. When he got the main event, blackout entrance against Holloway on the first ever FS1 show in Boston, I knew there was no turning back. 

I think the Zuffa era was full of calculated risks. Some of them worked and some of them didn't work at all. I think it was more or less, when they were going to take those risks. I think last night was different in that Paige and Sage are left over from the Zuffa era and not exactly WME-IMG products. The new regime isn't beholden to keeping those two people in the main event. The overnight ratings were pretty good, but that doesn't mean the show will go on as usual. I see WME-IMG doing what Bellator has failed to do since Kimbo passed, and that's trying to make notable fights separated from the main contendership fights. If PVZ is a ratings draw, why put her against a top 10-15 strawweight just because Paige is a ranked strawweight. If you're a strong A side, you don't have to be fighting a strong B side. She should be having more Kailin Curran type fights instead of "Hey, Rose Namajunas who is a much better fighter than Paige's original opponent...why not her as a replacement?". That's very shortsighted booking even if you feel like you need a big fight for Fight Pass.

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31 minutes ago, A_K said:

Objectively, its just not true. The organisation have bent over backwards to accomodate McGregor's whims & wishes. Jones is the prodigal child that has been - and seemingly will continue to be - embraced back into the fold again & again however grave or damaging his indiscretions. Chiefly its a business that is driven by the popularity of its stars. To suggest there's much racial / cultural undertones to their event planning is, I think, off.

Maybe I'm not being clear... I didn't say that this had as much to do with matchmaking or event planning, but everything to do with who is pushed outside of the octagon as the face(s) of the company. Please tell me how many talkshows and commercials you've seen Jon Jones on? How about Nick Diaz? Hell, during the time (admittedly short) that it seemed Cain was the future at HW, he was in ONE commercial, oh yes, guess who else was in the commercial? Rhonda. 

If you don't think that sponsors call up Dana and say "Can you send someone for a shoot?" and leave it to UFC as to who they send, you really don't know how advertising works. After an initial success with someone, of course they'll ask for that person again, but at the start it's up to who the company wants representing them.

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14 minutes ago, OSJ said:

Maybe I'm not being clear... I didn't say that this had as much to do with matchmaking or event planning, but everything to do with who is pushed outside of the octagon as the face(s) of the company. Please tell me how many talkshows and commercials you've seen Jon Jones on? How about Nick Diaz? Hell, during the time (admittedly short) that it seemed Cain was the future at HW, he was in ONE commercial, oh yes, guess who else was in the commercial? Rhonda. 

If you don't think that sponsors call up Dana and say "Can you send someone for a shoot?" and leave it to UFC as to who they send, you really don't know how advertising works. After an initial success with someone, of course they'll ask for that person again, but at the start it's up to who the company wants representing them.

Before Jon Jones' most recent issues, he's been in quite a few.  UFC was always keen to push him hard before he started consistently fucking up.  Also, Anderson Silva as well when he was the king of middleweight.  Jon Jones was undoubtedly on his way to being the face of the organization.

Phil Davis was in some commercials as well.

 

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Cain got a heavy push in the Hispanic markets before that loss to JDS. That's the reason why that first Fox show was in Anaheim. Cain had the health issues plus his Spanish isn't that good. In addition, Cain really doesn't give shit about doing a ton of press. He likes to stay to himself and whatnot. If you wanna believe sprewellrimz, he was making a lot from Milwaukee Tools (like in the 1/4 million dollar range or more) in sponsorship. He was doing fine just being Cain Velasquez so it's not like he was under obligation to be a company spokesman.

Even now, with everything that's happened, Jon may still be the on the verge of being that guy for the UFC. Dana isn't really part of the decision making anymore. It's not his call no matter what he says. They don't have a ton of great options at 185 or above. There is a ton of potential drama and intrigue in the redemption story. It's just on Jon to capitalize on that. When he was at one of those pressers either late last year or this year, it's still clear he was one of the most popular fighters in the company. People would rather cheer for Jon than DC, and that's just how it goes. The UFC has never really promoted a big fight in a begrudging manner. Whether it's a fight with a black Brazilian, two white people, a white Brazilian and a Mexican, or two black guys, a big fight is a big fight. They're going to spend a $1 million on the commercial for the event regardless. When Diaz-McGregor II fell off the 200 card, they went straight into trying to make Cormier-Jones II the main event. There was no "Well, there isn't a WASP Irishman and/or a white Latino here.. can't do it." They went out of their way to make that fight even though Cormier wasn't even cleared at that point and Jon suffered a few injuries in that OSP fight. There have been a few questionable racial moments in the UFC but cash rules everything at the end of the day.

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Perhaps I'm being too sensitive to something that isn't really there. I'm just going by my perception... Again, there's a difference between pushing a fight and pushing an individual as the face of the company.  That's all I was getting at. But yes, cash is king, always has been always will be, my whole point originally was that UFC (and granted, Paige and Sage are leftovers from the Zuffa era) delights in trying to create stars that will be (they think) more marketable in the mainstream as they perceive it to be (read: white, middle-class). Keep in mind, I'm saying this stuff as a fucking Irish-American, about as whitebread as it gets.

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To add to all the detail above -- in terms of talk shows, off the top of my head youve got Conor on Conan, Nate Diaz & Jones w. Kimmel. Nick has served a lengthy suspension and has, what, 2 fights in almost 4 years? He is not going to be the "face" of any company with that record. So its not an arguement that holds much weight -- but thats fine. Everything Ive seen from the UFC & associated media suggests ambivalence to race / culture -- as elsa says, "a big fight is a big fight". Make the numbers & theyll push you -- pretty much regardless of where youre from or what youve done outside MMA.

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3 minutes ago, OSJ said:

Perhaps I'm being too sensitive to something that isn't really there. I'm just going by my perception... Again, there's a difference between pushing a fight and pushing an individual as the face of the company.  That's all I was getting at.

The thing is...what does that actually mean though? This isn't really pro wrestling so no MMA fighter has had this John Cena decade long run as the face of the company. Shit, Urijah Faber was the face of fighting below 155 pounds. However, Jose Aldo was the still the guy at 145 pounds and DJ being the other most dominant fighter below lightweight. They gave Faber title shot after title shot, but no one is going to say he's the best fighter below lightweight. He's not even really in the discussion anymore. Is he a pioneer? Yes, but only after Jose Aldo supplanted him and then became one of the best fighters of all time.

It's understood that things are going to change. Moreover, the fans are going to decide who stands where. It's like the ridiculous notion Bellator chooses which events are their tentpole events. No, the fans decide what events are the tentpole events because the ratings reflect that. Organizations can do whatever Jedi Mind Trick they feel works, but if the people aren't buying, they have to switch to something else. No one at the UFC is forcing people at gunpoint to buy McGregor or Rousey PPVs. If people aren't interested in something, they're not going to buy it. Keep in mind, McGregor has been a PPV attraction for only a year and five months. It just seems like an eternity because of everything associated with him, and McGregor being very active as a fighter. That's still not very long. They've been trying to push Jon Jones for more than half a decade (and counting) even with legal issues and drug suspensions. If McGregor retired tomorrow and Jones continued, they're going to push him as that guy since they're not replete with other viable options. If the Rumble and Cormier II fights are still worth 1 million buys, fuck yeah Jon Jones is the man for them. He's a familiar face who has already show some ability to draw. The UFC's success has been so much about the next man up, and I think people underrate that because we've gotten comfortable with the idea of having megadraws. I remember saying this two years ago: The UFC isn't going to pack it in because the most familiar faces leave or lose. GSP retires? Anderson Silva is out for a long time? Brock Lesnar is back with WWE? It doesn't matter because fans will find someone else to be connected to eventually if you always have high level talent. It could take several months or even years. Does said person or people sell 1 million + on PPV? Likely no just because that's an absurd standard. Do you get a few big PPVs or TV ratings? Yeah because the UFC knows how to promote even when they fuck up royally. The thing going forward is does the new regime's philosophy align with talent development and scouting? The whole thing about who is the face of the company doesn't matter. At all. The face of the company isn't fighting every show. Three or four shows is only a small fraction of the number of events put on. 

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As I recall Paige VanZant was already getting a lot of hype and buzz online before she came into the UFC.  And part of it was that yeah, she was hot.  And let's also not forget, she came in and made a big impact very quickly and won her first three fights.  Not to mention, she was looking very good in those fights, and yes, I'm sure her marketable looks helped her get a lot more attention as well.  They worked in Ronda Rousey's favor as well.  But I doubt it's because, "UFC's racist and hates black people and only want to push other white folk as big stars."  Though Dr. Johnny Benjamin has tried to push that narrative before as well.  

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15 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

"Well, there isn't a WASP Irishman... 

Irish people (from the Republic at least) aren't Anglo-Saxon or Protestant. 

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

Irish people (from the Republic at least) aren't Anglo-Saxon or Protestant. 

Does McGregor even practice any religion since he went on that tangent last year about fuck religion?

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3 hours ago, AxB said:

Irish people (from the Republic at least) aren't Anglo-Saxon or Protestant. 

Thank you, I grew up in a totally Scandinavian neighborhood in Seattle. If your last name didn't end with "son" or "sen", you best be prepared to fight, EVERY DAY. That's why I exempted Conor as someone that UFC would want as face of the company, we Irish are a minority, we just blend in really well. ;-)

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2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Does McGregor even practice any religion since he went on that tangent last year about fuck religion?

Dunno, doesn't really matter, I don't practice any major religion and you don't get much more Irish than "John Francis Conall Pelan". 

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9 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Does McGregor even practice any religion 

From Scottish comedian Fred Macauley: "In Glasgow, people come up to you and say 'Which church do you go to?' and you say 'I don't go to church'. So they say 'Aye, but which one don't you go to?'".

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