NXT [NXT SPOILERS] For OCTOBER 19, 2016

[Kyuubi]

Ugh. Roderick Strong? He was the worst. Still is the worst. Dude is the absolute dregs. Fake ass Dean Malenko.

Yes, this is going to be a thing. If I had a choice between watching Eva Marie wrestle or Roderick Strong, I'm choosing Eva because it would actually be hilarious versus Roderick Strong who is just infuriating. Dude is the drizzling shits.

[Matt D]

Anti-grapplefuck crowd-enraging spoiler heel 2015 Roderick Strong from Evolve was awesome. Malenko could have never in a thousand years portrayed that character. I don't really have anything else to say about him than that though.

[Niners Fan in CT]

8 hours ago, The Z said:

With the AoP, these guys and Big Damo coming in they actually have quite a few hosses now. I'm ready for the Hoss Classic '17.

You should check out Progress. They have a Hoss Classic and it's awesome.  Think it's called the Atlas tournament.

[cool arrow]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Anti-grapplefuck crowd-enraging spoiler heel 2015 Roderick Strong from Evolve was awesome.

Sounds great.  Any specific shows you'd recommend?

[The Z]

32 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

You should check out Progress. They have a Hoss Classic and it's awesome.  Think it's called the Atlas tournament.

PROGRESS is actually one of my favorite promotions. I just bought a ticket for the show in Germany next year.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

3 hours ago, Peck said:

My favorite part of the show was Aries mocking Otis's walk at the beginning of the match before the Test of Strength. Had me laughing out loud. 

Aries is awesome. I loved his pre-match promo about not wanting to reveal his partner, but rather talk about the power of potassium. 

Roderick is great when he's playing the cocky, frat boy jock. He really got to show that off during his 2007-2008 run with the NRC.

[sydneybrown]

6 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Aries is awesome. I loved his pre-match promo about not wanting to reveal his partner, but rather talk about the power of potassium. 

Well, he pretty much DID reveal his partner by saying he was teaming with the "strongest."

[SorceressKnight]

11 hours ago, Eivion said:

I kind of get this argument, but in the current age where much of the NXT audience is aware of these guys before they came into WWE it doesn't really make much sense to start them completely over. Also some of the names you picked weren't the best examples. Sami sort of had to start over as he spent his career as a masked wrestler. Lynch had been out for years and not achieved much since she left before the women's indy scene really took off. Owens didn't really start at ground zero. Going beyond them Samoa Joe & Nakamura didn't remotely start over with both using the same names, gimmicks, & history they had before WWE. Going beyond NXT, AJ Styles, Anderson, & Gallows didn't start over either. All get good reactions with just enough of their history being explained.

Even then, the problem is still there.

The issue is never "In 1996, people would have said not to push Stone Cold Steve Austin because it was unfair to Skip because of his indy experience", or "in 1996, people would say to not push Stone Cold Steve Austin because it was unfair to Duke Droese." Neither of those are fair- sometimes homegrowns are better, sometimes indy standouts are better.

The issue...is that if the NXT viewpoint happened in 1996, Stone Cold wouldn't happen and we'd have gotten "OH MY GOD, KING! IT'S STUNNING STEVE AUSTIN! HE'S THE HOTTEST FREE AGENT IN PRO WRESTLING TODAY, AND HE'S FINALLY HERE ON WWF TELEVISION!"- and that would have had as many issues. Instead of the possibility of taking a star people like further with a new gimmick (like Sami and Lynch are good examples of, as both have managed to become big stars with only the bare minimum of having to know who El Generico or Rebecca Knox were to appreciate Zayn/Lynch now), people are just cashing out at "what they were as of right now"...and by and large that level's just selling the talent short more than anything else.

[kiguchi]

10 hours ago, Goodear said:

Cross is on the drugs.  I think she needs to dial it down maybe 10% so it doesn't become too cartoonish.  She should always chew gum and ride Sawyer to the ring.  That should be a thing. 

Like this?

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

Cross was overdoing it, but she'll fix that.

Swann and Jose should definitely be a team full-time. Jose's doing well (much than I ever expected with that gimmick), but he's not likely to get a bigger push than he already has on NXT. As long as keeps trying, I think he's ready for a tag-team on Raw or Smackdown post-Wrestlemania.

[zev]

I wonder what'll happen if at the next Takeover they tell Cross to dial it UP a notch. Or several notches actually, just tell her to go past both Tye's 10 and Nigel Tufnel's 11.

[Eivion]

45 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Even then, the problem is still there.

The issue is never "In 1996, people would have said not to push Stone Cold Steve Austin because it was unfair to Skip because of his indy experience", or "in 1996, people would say to not push Stone Cold Steve Austin because it was unfair to Duke Droese." Neither of those are fair- sometimes homegrowns are better, sometimes indy standouts are better.

The issue...is that if the NXT viewpoint happened in 1996, Stone Cold wouldn't happen and we'd have gotten "OH MY GOD, KING! IT'S STUNNING STEVE AUSTIN! HE'S THE HOTTEST FREE AGENT IN PRO WRESTLING TODAY, AND HE'S FINALLY HERE ON WWF TELEVISION!"- and that would have had as many issues. Instead of the possibility of taking a star people like further with a new gimmick (like Sami and Lynch are good examples of, as both have managed to become big stars with only the bare minimum of having to know who El Generico or Rebecca Knox were to appreciate Zayn/Lynch now), people are just cashing out at "what they were as of right now"...and by and large that level's just selling the talent short more than anything else.

First, I was never talking about homegrowns vs. indy standouts so I'm not sure what the point of that was. Second, you're argument kind of fails when taking into account Chris Jericho & the Radicalz. Third, its not so much selling talent short as it is not treating your audience as ignorant/stupid and telling said talent the work/experience they put into previous gimmicks that got them over means nothing. Basically if ain't broke, don't fix it. Also while commenting on selling talent short you're also not to take into account whether or not guys wanted to change their gimmicks. Pretty sure its been a choice on their part to some degree. Also I'm not saying everyone should come into WWE as who they were, but that its a bit ridiculous to argue everyone should start over from the ground up discounting completely who they were before. For some it make sense, for others not so much.

[SirSmUgly]

It really bums me out that the team I want to win the Classic is getting killed by the AoP next round.

I'm glad to see that even this jaded Full Sail crowd gets excited for fat-guy double-team moves. 

Patrick Clark from Paisley Park has potential, I think? Maybe. 

[SorceressKnight]

1 hour ago, Eivion said:

First, I was never talking about homegrowns vs. indy standouts so I'm not sure what the point of that was. Second, you're argument kind of fails when taking into account Chris Jericho & the Radicalz. Third, its not so much selling talent short as it is not treating your audience as ignorant/stupid and telling said talent the work/experience they put into previous gimmicks that got them over means nothing. Basically if ain't broke, don't fix it. Also while commenting on selling talent short you're also not to take into account whether or not guys wanted to change their gimmicks. Pretty sure its been a choice on their part to some degree. Also I'm not saying everyone should come into WWE as who they were, but that its a bit ridiculous to argue everyone should start over from the ground up discounting completely who they were before. For some it make sense, for others not so much.

First, Chris Jericho and the Radicalz are examples of that as well, though. Of the five of them, the two biggest stars in WWE by far- Jericho and Eddie- ended up getting to that point after a complete rebuilding- Eddie doing it first and eventually making it to the top because he got repackaged, Jericho making it to be a bonafide longterm main eventer by eliminating everything about his WCW self and being repackaged (while Jericho had made it to the World Title being close to his WCW persona, but even he thought he exploded when he became the super-serious heel in 2008 and was solidified as a true main eventer.) 

Second, part of the big time IS telling said talent any work and experience they put into a previous gimmick that got them over means almost nothing once you enter the big leagues.  It's been a whole point and it's only a recent development in wrestling that "everything a worker has done is the same exact character from the moment they started training to the moment they main event Wrestlemania, even if they're playing different gimmicks"- and an even MORE recent thing where people demand "any promotion that people would see- not even obvious rivals like New Japan or possibly TNA/ROH, but even smaller indies like CHIKARA/SHIMMER/PWG/CZW where even the people behind those promotions would agree they're not equal to WWE by a long shot- ARE in fact equal to them, and a contender for the CHIKARA Grand Championship could walk in and instantly challenge AJ Styles for the WWE World Championship and it makes perfect sense". If it's "not treating your audience as ignorant/stupid" it's one thing, but on the other side it's the same problem every other geek culture has where it makes it harder to access pro wrestling- instead of accepting fans liking a top star as that top star from what they saw in WWE, it ends up forcing newer fans to do too much homework at best, is the same "Fake Fan" crap in other cultures of "Oh, you love [thing]? Well, then who was [super-obscure stat]? I knew it- you're just a CASUAL" stuff that just drives fans away at worst.

[Eivion]

Jericho was doing well enough before the gimmick change. WWE just didn't take advantage of it. Benoit made it w/o any change whatsoever to his character. Like I said before for some change is needed, others not so much.

Also the problem with you're argument in the second paragraph is that WWE isn't saying those guys are the same level. They just aren't discounting experience and that at least some of those promotions (NJPW) are a big deal even though they aren't at WWE's level. And the whole fan vs. fan thing feels like a bit of a push. Like I sad WWE and NXT do usually tell you just enough to get them as characters. Beyond that is a problem they have no control of that would likely happen regardless of whether not wrestlers changed gimmicks.

[Jenalysis]

Some of those changes were also due to age and evolving over time.  It's hard to be stunning when you're getting old and going bald, and Jericho's WCW gimmick only had so much shelf life before it needed to get serious.

 

 

[Matt D]

14 hours ago, cool arrow said:

Sounds great.  Any specific shows you'd recommend?

It's been a while but I want to say vs Thatcher at Evolve 37?

[Jamal]

Nice to see Billie and Peyton move past the Mean Girls insults and into "kick your ass" territory. That was a nice and brutal beatdown on Liv.

Nikki Cross is out of control lol 

[Go2Sleep]

The Sanity gimmick is so good. It makes me want to see a bunch of people I wasn't interested in previously (sort of like the Wyatt Family sans Harper), just for the entrance if nothing else. So good job whoever came up with that. The shelf life of the gimmick will be determined by how well they back it up in the ring, but it's a great start.

I also love the Swann/Jose team. Heavy Machinery was good also. Between those two and Gen Next, the NXT tag division is absolutely loaded right now.

TJP is an ok replacement for Itami I guess. Not nearly as cool, but it keeps the team credible and they can still have solid matches.

[Greggulator]

I don't necessarily want a new gimmick for each new guy making the leap to NXT. I get there are reasons why guys want to keep their names and existing characters. I'd absolutely prefer for them to have a new everything because that's more fun to watch. But I get why Joe wants to remain Joe.

But just debuting people as a new shock partner or "I CAN'T BELIEVE HE'S HERE!" is so dumb. I have no idea who Roderick Strong is. I know him in passing. But I don't watch indies or TNA. Any form of storytelling needs to assume the audience does not know w.ho this new person is. I don't. Why should I care?

I really loved the Bobby Roode debut. That was so great. His introduction let me know who he is and what he stands for (on top of it being a great slow-burn heel promo). Or KO's debut was great. There was some build to him coming in so I know his name and he's a prizefighter. He has his first match. And then he turns on Sami who they established as his best friend. Perfect.

The Jericho debut in the 90s was also perfect. I knew who he was because I watched both shows and ECW. But you can't assume everyone knows. He comes out, interrupts the rock, and gave a wonderful delusional promo about his self-importance. Boom.

A strong debut is so important to getting and keeping someone over if they're billed as being from somewhere else. Some guys can just show up and not have a great debut and have it work. Samoa Joe had a "WHAT IS HE DOING HERE???" thing to prevent KO from injuring Sami. It was sorta lame. But his character slowly built up and now he's the star of the show pretty much. But Austin Aries? He didn't have anything too great. He showed up and Corbin took him out. There was nothing early on to establish who he is, his motivations, etc. I still give zero craps about him.

Someone from the indies/TNA showing up unannounced at Full Sail is the new cheap pop. It's so lazy. I'm glad everyone at Full Sail knows who these dudes are but it's super lame and boring if you don't.

[SirSmUgly]

You're not the target audience for NXT, Gregg. People who are aware of the Nakamuras and Roddy Strongs are. 

And yes, I know that this is different than how it was in 2013 NXT, but 2016 NXT might not be for you if you're not the type of fan that follows the indies and Japan enough to know these guys who come over. 

[Eivion]

53 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

But Austin Aries? He didn't have anything too great. He showed up and Corbin took him out. There was nothing early on to establish who he is, his motivations, etc. I still give zero craps about him.

At this point that is kind of more on you. Who Aries is and what his motivations are have been explained. If you don't give a crap about Aries at this point, its probably more that you just don't like him.

[SorceressKnight]

41 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

You're not the target audience for NXT, Gregg. People who are aware of the Nakamuras and Roddy Strongs are. 

And yes, I know that this is different than how it was in 2013 NXT, but 2016 NXT might not be for you if you're not the type of fan that follows the indies and Japan enough to know these guys who come over. 

And THIS is the whole problem- not just with NXT, not just with WWE, but with all geek cultures in a nutshell- right here. This attitude by fans, this belief "you're not GOOD ENOUGH to be a fan of this if you aren't hyper-obsessed over this thing. Go be a CASUAL somewhere else and root for *scoff* ROMAN REIGNS or *spits* JOHN CENA like the rest of the normies" is the biggest issue that NXT stars have to deal with, and it IS the reason that the NXT stars are mostly struggling on the main roster. There are success stories now starting to take place in NXT like Kevin Owens (and even in Owens's case, he couldn't be a superstar until they dispatched the flailing Sami Zayn/Kevin Owens feud that only served to hold Owens back, completely arrest Sami Zayn's development and turn the most dynamic, most pure babyface in NXT into 'this dude really, really, REALLY doesn't like Kevin Owens' and in the process make ZAYN look like the jerk, not Owens...but the smarks really really liked Kevin Steen (NOT! Kevin Owens!) and El Generico (TRAINER! at the orphanage of Sami Zayn!) on the indies and demand they be destined to do this forever...), but by and large the biggest issue NXT performers are having is this: Even if NXT is a target audience to be our little smark clubhouse like people claim it is, it's still a WWE developmental promotion, and so one day...those people will be on the main roster, and when they're on the main roster they MUST make the casual fans love them too or else they will fail miserably. 

[SirSmUgly]

4 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

And THIS is the whole problem- not just with NXT, not just with WWE, but with all geek cultures in a nutshell- right here. This attitude by fans, this belief "you're not GOOD ENOUGH to be a fan of this if you aren't hyper-obsessed over this thing. Go be a CASUAL somewhere else and root for *scoff* ROMAN REIGNS or *spits* JOHN CENA like the rest of the normies" is the biggest issue that NXT stars have to deal with, and it IS the reason that the NXT stars are mostly struggling on the main roster. There are success stories now starting to take place in NXT like Kevin Owens (and even in Owens's case, he couldn't be a superstar until they dispatched the flailing Sami Zayn/Kevin Owens feud that only served to hold Owens back, completely arrest Sami Zayn's development and turn the most dynamic, most pure babyface in NXT into 'this dude really, really, REALLY doesn't like Kevin Owens' and in the process make ZAYN look like the jerk, not Owens...but the smarks really really liked Kevin Steen (NOT! Kevin Owens!) and El Generico (TRAINER! at the orphanage of Sami Zayn!) on the indies and demand they be destined to do this forever...), but by and large the biggest issue NXT performers are having is this: Even if NXT is a target audience to be our little smark clubhouse like people claim it is, it's still a WWE developmental promotion, and so one day...those people will be on the main roster, and when they're on the main roster they MUST make the casual fans love them too or else they will fail miserably. 

What in fuck are you talking about?

I sure didn't claim that Gregg was good enough to be a fan of NXT. I'm just saying that NXT is specifically catering to niche wrestling fans at this point. Gregg isn't a niche wrestling fan, which is fine, but that means that he'll be a bit put off by guys like Roddy Strong showing up and being over because of what he did in Ring of Honor.

This was a particularly random, whacked-out rant even for you, SK.

[EVA]

I gave up at the neverending Owens/Zayn parenthetical.