goodhelmet Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Moving forward, we have had a healthy and strong discussion on the merits of kicking girl fighters in their girlie parts. Brienne vs. The Hound ruled. With that said, lets move on and leave that discussion behind because it would be a shame that the only available GoT thread was the Maesters thread where we drop spoilers liberally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clayton Jones Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I think you may be reading too much into Shae from that scene. Tyrion showed no signs of wanting to kill her or anything else until she forced his hand by going for the dagger which was practically an immediate response. Maybe, although I agree with pretty much everything else in your post. I want to believe Shae truly loved Tyrion, and I think the logical conclusion based on her actions until he sent her away is that she did. Shae didn't fear death when she still had Tyrion, she was willing to risk everything to continue their relationship. It was only after she knew they were finished that her survival instinct kicked back in and she betrayed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 So do you think this finale opens up a door to more fantasy elements or do you think we will still have a lot of political chess? Or both. I like that we are moving in a direction where we are seeing things that most people in Westeros have only heard about as legend.. but I do hope we don't lose the straight politics and backstabbings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I think you may be reading too much into Shae from that scene. Tyrion showed no signs of wanting to kill her or anything else until she forced his hand by going for the dagger which was practically an immediate response. Maybe, although I agree with pretty much everything else in your post. I want to believe Shae truly loved Tyrion, and I think the logical conclusion based on her actions until he sent her away is that she did. Shae didn't fear death when she still had Tyrion, she was willing to risk everything to continue their relationship. It was only after she knew they were finished that her survival instinct kicked back in and she betrayed him. OK, this is one of those things that was changed from the books that makes everything make much less sense. First of all Shae in the books is much less defined of a character. The show made her a much more fully realized character that it feels like a betrayel of the character for her to turn on Tyrion. In the books she doesn't live in the Tower of the Hand, she has an apartment that Varys set up that can be accessed through the hidden tunnels built into the Red Keep(The city is King's Landing, the castle is the Red Keep). Throughout the books her loyalty is much more easily questioned, because she is a whore who seems to be completely dependent on Tyrion. On the show she is fairly independent. She shows much more agency, especially with how she relates to Sansa, who she flat out hates in the books. So when you read about Shae, you hear her say all this shit to Tyrion, but we also know she is a whore and her job is to make her clients feel like she actually has feelings for them. When she testifies against Tyrion she just seems like a treacherous whore who never cared about Tyrion and not a victim of some sort of threat from Tywin. OK, so another deviation from the books that makes this turn of events a little hard to understand are the secret passages under the Red Keep. The Targaryen king Maegor The Cruel was like many Targaryens a crazy person, and he built the tunnels under the castle so he could escape if his enemies attacked. Not many people know that these tunnels even exist, but Varys seems to have a level of expertise when it comes to how to get around the castle unseen. In the books Jaime doesn't return until after Joffrey is dead and Tyrion's trial is over. The first time they speak is when Jaime frees Tyrion. Varys sneaks Jaime into the dungeon so he can free Tyrion and Tyrion follows Varys through the tunnels to freedom. On the way Tyrion sees a ladder and asks Varys where it leads, and he tells him it leads into the Tower of the Hand. Tyrion decides right then and there that he is going to climb the ladder and confront his father. He gets there and Shae is laying in the bed and Tyrion strangles her out of anger. Then kills Tywin much like he does in the show. Tyrion killing Tywin was probably going to happen, but I think it was guaranteed as soon as he seen Shae in his bed. Do you guys remember the story Tyrion told about his first wife? How Tywin had all of the Lannister house guard have sex with her in front of him for a gold coin a piece as a lesson for Tyrion about whoring around. Tywin spent years lecturing Tyrion about whores and how he would kill any whore that he seen him with, and blah blah blah. When Tyrion seen Shae in that bed, he couldn't let the hypocrisy slide. It was just too much for him to handle. He would have probably killed everyone in King's Landing at that point. The questions that get brought up is whether Tywin was as big of a whore monger as Tywin, and when and where Tywin became involved with Shae. Was it when Tyrion married Sansa or could she have been a plant from the very beginnig when Tywin made Tyrion fight in the Vanguard back in the first book/season. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Spanish Waiter Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Your posts are ace dude thank you so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 If I am not mistaken, I heard on the Grantland podcast that Tywin referenced the wife story (or the other whore from season 1) before he met his demise and they didn't do it on the show. Is this correct or are they a bit off on their analysis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bink_winkleman Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The podcast is right, and book readers won't stop bitching about it, from what I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buy Me a Burrito Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 It makes for a better story for Tyrion. I'm not bitching loudly, because I know that TV and books are different mediums altogether, but it's still a better moment. Tyrion loved Tysha, the girl he stumbled upon. After the incident that Tywin set up, where all of the camp guys took turns on her paying her a silver each, he made Tyrion pay one gold coin. When Tyrion meets Jamie in the tunnels, the girl comes up and Jamie tells her that she wasn't a whore after all, that she was a normal person (smallfolk or whatever they refer to her as). Tyrion gets enraged and tells Jamie about all of the people Cersi has fucked in his absence and splits. He kills Shae and then when he talks to Tywin about everything, he asks what happens to Tysha. Tywin tells him that she went "wherever whores go". That's when the shot happens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Tywin tells him that she went "wherever whores go". That's when the shot happens. I assume Weiss & Benioff cut that line so they wouldn't be forced to have Tyrion repeat it over and fucking over next season. "Words are wind" is the meme, but fuck, "wherever whores go," and its variations, are right up there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I'm kind of glad they left it with Tyrion still having one member of his family he doesn't hate. That way I can still entertain my fantasy of next season ending with Tyrion and Jaime sitting in that "loan me money" room at the Iron Bank in Braavos featuring the following exchange: "The coffee and local singer/songwriters will bring in the crowds and from there the used books should sell themselves!" "Don't forget the screenings of indy video art, Tyrion." "Right...thanks for bringing that up, Jaime." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Thanks for those clarifications supremebve. It explains so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Your posts are ace dude thank you so much 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Spanish Waiter Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 A missed opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clayton Jones Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 So do you think this finale opens up a door to more fantasy elements or do you think we will still have a lot of political chess? Or both. I like that we are moving in a direction where we are seeing things that most people in Westeros have only heard about as legend.. but I do hope we don't lose the straight politics and backstabbings. This is something I'm curious about as well. The Bran scenes were the hardest for me to swallow of any of the fantasy ground the show has covered so far. I enjoy a fantasy, and especially mythological feel to fiction (obviously was a huge Carnivale fan for example), but I think if it's something that isn't a constant part of the universe then you need to be consistent with the pace those aspects are introduced and depicted. So Bran's scenes in the finale just felt like a lot all at once, and it also had a very deus ex machina feel with how they were saved and the explanations we're starting to hear from the one-eyed raven. At the same time the old gods VS the new gods has been an important aspect of the show since the beginning and I am excited to see it explained a bit more. I just also hope they maintain a balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Regardless of the fantasy elements, Bran is ALWAYS horrible and the worst. Jaime has been a babyface since Ep 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Regardless of the fantasy elements, Bran is ALWAYS horrible and the worst. There is no good actor to hold that storyline up. Burn Gorman (Karl) was the best actor involved in it and he wasn't even directly involved until he took the kids hostage. They are really testing the audience's love of Hodor and visions inspired by 1992 alternative rock music videos. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Karl was a fookin LEGEND compared to these goofs, but it's more than that. It's the worst part of the books as well. If you could recast all involved, what sort of actor would it take to prop up the Bran part of the story? It might be impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LooseCannon Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 If you could recast all involved, what sort of actor would it take to prop up the Bran part of the story? It might be impossible. Someone who could provide sexposition in the role of Meera. Also, the Children of the Forest as naked nubile women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 So do you think this finale opens up a door to more fantasy elements or do you think we will still have a lot of political chess? Or both. I like that we are moving in a direction where we are seeing things that most people in Westeros have only heard about as legend.. but I do hope we don't lose the straight politics and backstabbings. This is something I'm curious about as well. The Bran scenes were the hardest for me to swallow of any of the fantasy ground the show has covered so far. I enjoy a fantasy, and especially mythological feel to fiction (obviously was a huge Carnivale fan for example), but I think if it's something that isn't a constant part of the universe then you need to be consistent with the pace those aspects are introduced and depicted. So Bran's scenes in the finale just felt like a lot all at once, and it also had a very deus ex machina feel with how they were saved and the explanations we're starting to hear from the one-eyed raven. At the same time the old gods VS the new gods has been an important aspect of the show since the beginning and I am excited to see it explained a bit more. I just also hope they maintain a balance. This is basically where the books left off with Bran so I'm going to just speculate that they are going to use Bran as the conduit to tell the parts of the books that are hard to tell on TV. We've seen that Bran has the ability to see through the weirwoods, and I think those visions are going to be used to explain a lot of things that we couldn't see elsewhere. I remember a couple of weeks ago you guys were having issues trying to figure out where everyone was from and how they related geographically(is that a word?). I'm going to try to explain these over the next few days/weeks if I have the time. Let's start with our friends in the North, the real north. The lands beyond the wall are sometimes refered to as the Land of Always Winter, because it is as cold as week old polar bear shit. Most of the Land of Always Winter is uncharted, but there are some geograpical features that are worthy of note. The Frostfangs is a huge mountain range that provide the Night's Watch with protection from the west. The Fist of the First men is the plateau that the Night's watch used to set up camp before the Wights came and damn near wiped them out. The people who live beyond the wall are called Wildlings by the people south of the wall, but they call themselves Free Folk, because they don't want to follow any stupid rules. There is no telling how many people live beyond the wall, but their are at least a hundred thousand. There many different types of Free Folk, but occasionally they come together under one King Beyond the Wall to invade Westeros. Before Mance Rayder there were a few notable Wildling kings. One of the most famous Kings Beyond the Wall was Bael the Bard, who took offense to Brandon Stark(There are approximately 5184915618941951951911781781 Brandon Starks) calling him a coward. Bael climbed the wall, snuck into Winterfell under the guise of a singer named Sygerrik of Skagos and impressed Brandon with his singing. Lord Stark asked Sygerrik what he wanted for a reward and he replied the most beautiful flower in Winterfell. Brandon gave him a blue winter rose and the next morning Stark's only virgin daughter was gone, and a blue winter rose was in her bed. Being that Brandon had no other children, the Stark's could have lost the North when Brandon died, but one day Brandon's daughter was back...with an infant. About 30 years later Bael decided he wanted to invade Westeros and eventually ran into his son who had taken over as Lord of Winterfell. Bael decided that he couldn't kill his own son and let his son kill him at The Frozen Ford. Bael's son, unbeknownst to him, took daddy's head home to show his mother. She was so happy to see the love of her life's head she jumped out of a tower and died. Bael's son was eventually killed by a Bolton, never forget that the Boltons are assholes. Since then the Starks get a certain level of respect beyond the wall because all Starks decend from Bael. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Yeah, Bran's plot line is, by far, the worst part of the books. Just so very dull and uninteresting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigertooth Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Oops, started this reply a while back and never finished it... So with Tywin dead, Cersei is pretty much in charge. She'll be Queen Regent with no one to overrule her. Without Tyrion's brain or Tywin's connections and experience or Varys' spy network. She'll refuse to marry Loras, thereby pissing off the Tyrells. And the Tyrells are the ones keeping the ship afloat, moneywise -- right? I bet the Iron Bank is pretty happy they listened to Davos about now. So do we know what happened between episodes 9 and 10 with Arya and the Hound? They hear that Lady Arryn is dead and they just turn around and leave? Wouldn't the Hound ask who's in charge and keep trying to sell Arya off? I mean, I guess he had grown fond of Arya, but you'd think he'd make more effort to complete his mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I think we're supposed to assume that whoever is keeper of the Gates of the Moon now refused them entry into the Vale (not a book spoiler, none of this happened in the books). That's why Brienne and Pod were able to catch up with them - because Arya and Hound were actually headed back towards the Kingsroad (probably planning on going North to find some Stark bannerman who'd recognise her). But this is all guesswork because the show didn't tell us. It does make sense that the Vale would close it's borders in the aftermath of a tragedy like that. Being as it's the perfect time to attack them and all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino_Not_Deuce Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Just finished Season 4 and enjoyed it well enough but this whole thing is slowly crossing over into "silly action" fare with the, quite frankly, ridiculous levels of violence whenever there's something sharp around. The Brienne/Hound fight was the best one in the season because it was just two tough people, punching and kicking the piss out of each other. Brienne always the best character 4eva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigertooth Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Interesting. To me, the most significant moments of violence (off the top of my head) were not what I'd call ridiculously violent (Tywin's death, Ygritte's death, the dude Arya stabbed after asking his name, the Hound committing the mercy killing) or didn't involve a sharp object (deaths of Joffrey, Shae, Oberyn, and Lyssa plus dragon mayhem). I guess there was some stuff at Craster's Keep and Reek's spy mission ending in a gnarly axe to the head. Oh, and the dude who got launched into orbit by the giant's crossbow. What am I forgetting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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