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elizium

By elizium
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supremebve

supremebve

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, J.T. said:

It took one of the best assassins on the planet to get the drop on him and lots of people died providing the distraction that gave that person the opportunity to make the strike.

The time lapse devoted to the war wasn't as long as I'd have like it to have been, but I wouldn't say the White King was a pushover.  I just think that the event crunch killed the gravitas of the moment.

I've heard the Arya killing the Night's King criticism and I honestly don't understand how anyone who watched the show feels that way.  Arya is pretty much the most deadly person on the entire show by the end, who else in the entire show was better equipped to kill him?  Seriously, Jon was the leader that they needed, but he wasn't a killer.  Arya was the killer, it was her job to clean his ass up.

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Raziel

Raziel

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Arya singlehandedly wiped out an entire House, which happened to be one of the largest in Westeros.  Yeah, her beating a zombie after a ton of other stuff going on and her barely getting there as is doesn't make the Night King a pushover.

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Craig H

Craig H

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The problem is that just moments before Arya killed the Night King she was on the verge of tears, visibly shaken, and running scared throughout the stronghold. She put on a good show at first and then completely lost it. Then all of a sudden she infiltrates all of the other white walkers standing around the Night King, not a single one of them stops her, she's caught by the throat by the Night King and his grasp doesn't kill or even burn or hurt her, and then he's dead after getting combat tricked. 

This, after showing how cunning, capable, and deadly the white walkers and the Night King were and after playing up how there would be some sort of a battle between Jon and the Night King. I'm almost ok with us not getting that fight because none of the other white walkers would let that happen anyway and the Night King probably wouldn't be like, sure, I'll give you a fair fight. It's just that the way it ended smacked of the writers backing themselves into a corner and hand waving all of that away by going, well, how about Arya leaps at him, the other walkers are uncharacteristically surprised and caught off guard, and then she pulls off a combat trick to kill the Night King with a stab. And then if anyone questioned that they just had no better way of getting themselves out of that corner.

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supremebve

supremebve

Posted
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8 minutes ago, Craig H said:

The problem is that just moments before Arya killed the Night King she was on the verge of tears, visibly shaken, and running scared throughout the stronghold. She put on a good show at first and then completely lost it. Then all of a sudden she infiltrates all of the other white walkers standing around the Night King, not a single one of them stops her, she's caught by the throat by the Night King and his grasp doesn't kill or even burn or hurt her, and then he's dead after getting combat tricked. 

This, after showing how cunning, capable, and deadly the white walkers and the Night King were and after playing up how there would be some sort of a battle between Jon and the Night King. I'm almost ok with us not getting that fight because none of the other white walkers would let that happen anyway and the Night King probably wouldn't be like, sure, I'll give you a fair fight. It's just that the way it ended smacked of the writers backing themselves into a corner and hand waving all of that away by going, well, how about Arya leaps at him, the other walkers are uncharacteristically surprised and caught off guard, and then she pulls off a combat trick to kill the Night King with a stab. And then if anyone questioned that they just had no better way of getting themselves out of that corner.

I couldn't disagree more.  The scariest thing about the Wights is that they are a pretty much a horde of unfeeling zombies that will not be satisfied until they extinguish all life in their path.  There is a reason she's on the verge of tears, visibly shaken, and running scared...she's surrounded by more of them than she could possibly kill before they overwhelmed her.  She didn't infiltrate the Others, she ran in and attacked them as they were trying to kill her paralyzed little brother.  At that point, why would The Others be on the look out for a flying teenager with a knife?  They pretty much just walked through and killed everyone in their path on the way to the God's Wood.  They won, they murdered their way through the castle, put a fucking ice dragon in front of the entrance to the God's Wood.  So, Arya, who knows the Night King's goal, who knows Winterfell like the back of her hand, who trained for years to kill people who were physically larger and more capable than her, get's the drop on someone who has no reason to believe that anyone could be coming and kills him.  It makes perfect sense.  There is literally no other way that would make sense for him to be killed.  Is the army of the living supposed to kill the dead so dead that they stop coming back to life, then kill the dragon, and then kill the Others before they can kill a kid in a wheelchair?  Is Jon, who is more than capable, but not the most creative of fighters supposed to just come up with a plan to kill a dragon and then kill multiple Others before he can kill the Night's King before he can kill the kid just sitting there in the wheelchair?  No, the only way it could happen is if someone did something he didn't expect, and he didn't expect a flying girl with a knife to be a killing machine...except we all know that she's a killing machine.  What would be the point of Arya becoming a fucking world class assassin if she wasn't going to use those skills when they were needed most?  

With that said, if you want to argue about whether or not the Others having a single leader is the worst writing mistake in the entire series, I'd listen.

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cwoy2j

cwoy2j

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On 11/1/2019 at 10:42 AM, supremebve said:

100% that might have been my tipping point.  That is when I stopped defending the mishaps and started wondering if these people understood the story they were telling.  Barristan getting killed by a bunch of noname randos is about as nonsensical of a death in any show/movie/book/play/telenovela/puppet show/kabuki theater...

Ser Barristan, one of the most legendary knights ever, just wandering around in a city under siege with no armor or back-up. I thought that was f'n ridiculous too.

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OSJ

OSJ

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On 6/4/2020 at 2:45 PM, cwoy2j said:

Ser Barristan, one of the most legendary knights ever, just wandering around in a city under siege with no armor or back-up. I thought that was f'n ridiculous too.

Yeah, this was the same guy who without armor faced down the entire King's Guard warning the five of them that he could cut through them like butter and meant it. The idea that he'd be stupid enough to wander around in alleys without armor or backup is just silly. Leaving aside the stupidity, Selmy should have been able to take the Sons of the Harpy apart piece by piece. A bunch of no-names with daggers against the greatest swordsman who ever lived? Please. 

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cwoy2j

cwoy2j

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5 hours ago, OSJ said:

Yeah, this was the same guy who without armor faced down the entire King's Guard warning the five of them that he could cut through them like butter and meant it. The idea that he'd be stupid enough to wander around in alleys without armor or backup is just silly. Leaving aside the stupidity, Selmy should have been able to take the Sons of the Harpy apart piece by piece. A bunch of no-names with daggers against the greatest swordsman who ever lived? Please. 

I guess the only plausible excuse there is that he had a longsword and was in an fairly enclosed area. Like Oberyn said to the Lannister guard he stabbed through the hand, "longsword? Bad choice of weapon for close quarters." But yeah, he should've cut through those idiots like a knife. Especially seeing as how Grey Worm was there too. I know he was hurt but he had pulled himself up enough to help Barristan a bit.

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username

username

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I mean, to play devil's advocate if part of the book/show was about taking down certain fantasy tropes (see how being good and dumb is often rewarded) then the greatest swordsman in the land falling to a somewhat untrained mob because there's just too bloody many of them doesn't leap out as inconsistent.

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cwoy2j

cwoy2j

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, username said:

I mean, to play devil's advocate if part of the book/show was about taking down certain fantasy tropes (see how being good and dumb is often rewarded) then the greatest swordsman in the land falling to a somewhat untrained mob because there's just too bloody many of them doesn't leap out as inconsistent.

That works to an extent but they also made the greatest swordsman in the land a moron for the sake of subverting a fantasy trope. Just tromping around a shit city unarmored without back-up where half of the population are assassins in disguise who hate you and your queen. That's out of character for a guy who's supposed to be as good and experienced of a warrior as Barristan was.

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TheVileOne

TheVileOne

Posted
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

That works to an extent but they also made the greatest swordsman in the land a moron for the sake of subverting a fantasy trope. Just tromping around a shit city unarmored without back-up where half of the population are assassins in disguise who hate you and your queen. That's out of character for a guy who's supposed to be as good and experienced of a warrior as Barristan was.

Clearly, TV Ser Barristan didn't go to the Goblin Slayer school of strategizing on how to live through a fantasy world when you're not a high-level protagonist.

Short sword for battling in caves and closed spaces. Chain mail, light plating and leather armor. Buckler shield. A torch can also act as an improvised weapon.

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OSJ

OSJ

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On 11/1/2019 at 10:13 AM, supremebve said:

I couldn't disagree more.  The scariest thing about the Wights is that they are a pretty much a horde of unfeeling zombies that will not be satisfied until they extinguish all life in their path.  There is a reason she's on the verge of tears, visibly shaken, and running scared...she's surrounded by more of them than she could possibly kill before they overwhelmed her.  She didn't infiltrate the Others, she ran in and attacked them as they were trying to kill her paralyzed little brother.  At that point, why would The Others be on the look out for a flying teenager with a knife?  They pretty much just walked through and killed everyone in their path on the way to the God's Wood.  They won, they murdered their way through the castle, put a fucking ice dragon in front of the entrance to the God's Wood.  So, Arya, who knows the Night King's goal, who knows Winterfell like the back of her hand, who trained for years to kill people who were physically larger and more capable than her, get's the drop on someone who has no reason to believe that anyone could be coming and kills him.  It makes perfect sense.  There is literally no other way that would make sense for him to be killed.  Is the army of the living supposed to kill the dead so dead that they stop coming back to life, then kill the dragon, and then kill the Others before they can kill a kid in a wheelchair?  Is Jon, who is more than capable, but not the most creative of fighters supposed to just come up with a plan to kill a dragon and then kill multiple Others before he can kill the Night's King before he can kill the kid just sitting there in the wheelchair?  No, the only way it could happen is if someone did something he didn't expect, and he didn't expect a flying girl with a knife to be a killing machine...except we all know that she's a killing machine.  What would be the point of Arya becoming a fucking world class assassin if she wasn't going to use those skills when they were needed most?  

With that said, if you want to argue about whether or not the Others having a single leader is the worst writing mistake in the entire series, I'd listen.

The Others having a single leader may not be entirely logical, but it is certainly understandable. The Night King has had fucking centuries to buy into his own hype. The dude falls hundreds of feet to the ground, bounces a couple of times and gets up none the worse for the experience. He has dragonfire blown at him at point-blank range and just laughs it off. Yeah, on some level he knows that Dragon glass or Valaryian steel can kill him, on the other hand he probably regards the danger the same way that I am concerned about hammerhead sharks.  I live in the high desert and we have the majority of the States of New Mexico and Texas between us and the nearest hammer-heads. It's real simple, I don't swim in the ocean and last time I checked the hammerheads weren't fond of the desert so the likelihood  of meeting up with  any seems pretty remote.

 

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J.T.

J.T.

Posted
Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Raziel said:

So, we're gonna find out of one can fail to stick a landing on a prequel then, are we?

GoT stuck the landing so hard that it was ridiculous.

Evil undead horde defeated, two psychotic noble bloodlines severed, world weary ruler with oracle powers and wise beyond his years sitting on the throne and advised by more than adequate council, peace in the North and relative peace everywhere else, invading army placated by the exile of a hero, badass assassin wanders the world like Caine from Kung Fu...

Talk about being tied up with the prettiest bow as could be expected.  I think that it was the best of all possible outcomes.  

I think that the reason that the series finale was met with so much venom is that it was the best of all possible outcomes.

Edited by J.T.
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Eivion

Eivion

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17 hours ago, J.T. said:

I think that the reason that the series finale was met with so much venom is that it was the best of all possible outcomes.

Pretty sure it had more to do with how things ended for a certain Mother of Dragons.

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AxB

AxB

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I wonder, if someone just watched the show but didn't watch the Inside The Episode shit, they might think it's less bad. But seeing inside what the writers were thinking really made it clear what complete idiots they were.

Dany just kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet and all that.

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supremebve

supremebve

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22 hours ago, J.T. said:

GoT stuck the landing so hard that it was ridiculous.

Evil undead horde defeated, two psychotic noble bloodlines severed, world weary ruler with oracle powers and wise beyond his years sitting on the throne and advised by more than adequate council, peace in the North and relative peace everywhere else, invading army placated by the exile of a hero, badass assassin wanders the world like Caine from Kung Fu...

Talk about being tied up with the prettiest bow as could be expected.  I think that it was the best of all possible outcomes.  

I think that the reason that the series finale was met with so much venom is that it was the best of all possible outcomes.

My problem had nothing to do with any of this, but had everything to do with what led up to this.  

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J.T.

J.T.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/29/2021 at 3:30 AM, Eivion said:

Pretty sure it had more to do with how things ended for a certain Mother of Dragons.

You mean from the folks who were in denial about Dany being batshit insane? 

I am in the camp that is bummed about Jon not being king but after he did the right thing and kept yet another tyrannical Targaryen from ascending to the Iron Throne, banishment was the only sensible solution to the problem of preventing the Unsullied and the Dothraki from finishing what Dany started.

Jon is still alive and most likely unites the wildling tribes and forms yet another kingdom in the North.  That is my wish for him.

On 4/29/2021 at 8:25 AM, supremebve said:

My problem had nothing to do with any of this, but had everything to do with what led up to this. 

GRRM only had so much blueprint to give the showrunners and after that, they were fucking winging it.  Like most people, I didn't particularly care for the time crunched showdown with the White Walkers, but the actual ending of the series had a pretty fair resolution.  Almost too fair if you ask me, but I suppose a land that has seen so much conflict was finally due for an extended peace.

Edited by J.T.
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