UFC 198: Werdum vs. Miocic (5/14/2016) - Curitiba, Paraná, Brazil (Arena da Baixada)

[J.T.]

That crowd in Curitiba can kiss my ass.

[AxB]

Brazilian crowds are always awful. Just a bunch of xenophobes. They don't come to watch the fights, they come to watch Brazilians win, and when the Brazilians don't win, they don't respect whoever bested them. UFC should just book every match as Brazil vs Brazil on those shows, just to make the fans be less shit.

[J.T.]

That's why I always mark the fuck out when the foreigner wins the main event on a card in Brazil.  You could've heard a pin drop when OSP beat Nog but did anyone in that crowd really expect one of the washed up Nog brothers to beat an up an coming fighter like OSP?

Stipe knocking Werdum the fuck out was also a magical moment.

[J.T.]

I am mixing up OSP knocking out Rua with Rumble knocking out Nog in the first round.  Is there some reason I can't edit posts in this forum?

[Elsalvajeloco]

You have to ask one of the admins.

[J.T.]

Chael Sonnen is an idiot.

This was no fault of the competitors, they went and did their job, but the referee did what we call an early stoppage. There was no historical, justifiable, reputable placement for this referee to place his decision. And outside of us commenting on it on SportsCenter, there will be no form of discipline done so we might as well not even talk about. He will be back in the ring next wee with no explanation given. And that's just the reality. This was terrible I am upset about this. They came to fight, one girl went down and she never stopped moving. The rule book says she has to stop moving or be in danger and the referee stopped it. They might as well go and break you and I up right now. It was that ridiculous."

No historical placement for the ref to place his decision?  Have you not seen any Cris Cyborg fights, Chael?

[Elsalvajeloco]

It was an early stoppage. Egrerious? Probably not considering the combatants. However, you have to let fighters in the top fights have a bit of leeway. Shit, if Pat Cummins who has a notoriously bad chin can get an extra 25-30 seconds, Smith can get the same treatment in a fight third from the top.

Medeiros probably got concussed three times against Massaranduba, and it didn't get stopped. That was a fight stuck in the middle of the prelims.

I kinda figured the women's fight was going to get to stopped early. Not because it's Cyborg and she causes that. First off, Herdy is a really shit referee. Maybe that's something that Smith should have protested before the show because anyone who knew about Herdy's proclivity for bad stoppages would have went to CABMMA to get him remove from their bout. However, fighters rarely ever do that so that's that. Second, it's a women's fight in front of 45,000 Brazilian people and there is that false responsibility from a Brazilian official not to allow the fight to reach a certain level. If Big Dan was reffing like he did for Massaranduba vs. Medeiros, Smith would gotten her death wish and it would have ended with no controversy. I am not against the stoppage really, but I am against letting shitty referees be allowed to run amuck with impunity. If he does this for fights where the stoppages doesn't mean much, chances are he will do this for fights that mean a whole lot. This very last thing we need is someone losing their belt because of a horrendous Eduardo Herdy stoppage.

 

[J.T.]

Shayna Bazler wishes she had a shit ref in her fight with Cyborg that kept her from getting brain damage.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Baszler's losses all end via her going down on her shield. Considering her personality, I think she would want it that way.

Smith is the same type of person if the almost losing an ear part didn't convince folks.

[J.T.]

Warrior's Pride will get you CTE as well as championships, but I suppose it is not my place to gauge whether or not it is worth it to a fighter.

I've always thought that "intelligent defense" is a suspect term because it leaves the fight up to the refs discretion and the definition of ID will vary from ref to ref, but refs are there use their judgment to enforce rules and protect fighters.

Having a ref say you're done (even if you won't admit to yourself that you're done) is preferable to the tap or sleep or tap or snap alternatives of submission finishes where a fighter's hubris or refusal to accept defeat can get him seriously injured.

 

 

 

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

16 minutes ago, J.T. said:

Warrior's Pride will get you CTE as well as championships, but I suppose it is not my place to gauge whether or not it is worth it to a fighter.

I've always thought that "intelligent defense" is a suspect term because it leaves the fight up to the refs discretion and the definition of ID will vary from ref to ref, but refs are there use their judgment to enforce rules and protect fighters.

Having a ref say you're done (even if you won't admit to yourself that you're done) is preferable to the tap or sleep or tap or snap alternatives of submission finishes where a fighter's hubris or refusal to accept defeat can get him seriously injured.

 

 

 

 

Not really when there is stuff at stake. And stakes change as you go bout from bout on the card. This is prizefighting. This is their chosen profession. If folks want to get knocked or choked unconscious, sometimes you have to oblige them. For someone like Leslie Smith, who will most likely be a career journeywoman and certainly needs that win bonus, this is her biggest career bout. She knows something seriously bad could happen. She's been at this awhile. If all fights were decided by delusion, this fight would've never happened in the first place. If she wants to get knocked out, let her get knocked out. That's an option given (or should've been given) to pretty much everyone on this show.

[J.T.]

And what happens when you "oblige" someone and the injury they suffer puts them out of the sport that is supposed to pay the bills?  Passing out for a second or two after a choke and wobble legs from strikes are one thing but knees popping out of socket from calf slicers and heel hooks and concussions from having your head bounce off of the mat are whole 'nother monsters.

Got to be a happy medium somewhere.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, J.T. said:

And what happens when you "oblige" someone and the injury they suffer puts them out of the sport that is supposed to pay the bills?  Passing out for a second or two after a choke and wobble legs from strikes are one thing but knees popping out of socket from calf slicers and heel hooks and concussions from having your head bounce off of the mat are whole 'nother monsters.

Got to be a happy medium somewhere.

It's fucking MMA. They know what could happen. Dude that is same shit people were saying in 2000 and 2001 when they began regulating the sport.

WHAT IF SOMEONE WAS BREAKING BRICKS GOT INTO MMA AND START THROWING ELBOWS?!

Everything is what if until you step in there. That's the assumed risk. That anything can happen.

Also, we can't seriously talk about CTE when Shogun Rua who has documented concussions inside the cage and surely several undocumented ones outside the cage was on the same show. In addition, Nate Marquardt who has 4x or 5x the fights as Leslie Smith was allowed to fight someone who was going to 99.8% melt him in devastating fashion and add to the incredible amount of damage he has amassed. Leslie Smith can't take 5 or 6 more punches? LMAO.

[Elsalvajeloco]

If someone gets seriously hurt in Brazil on something other than a checked leg kick or posting with their arm on a takedown (how Shogun broke his arm against Coleman), I am like 90 percent sure it's going to be at the hands of Osiris Maia, Eduardo Herdy, or one of Osiris Maia's other regional acolytes.

[J.T.]

It's fucking MMA and Its fucking Boxing is the stupid shit that people say when they want to kick the can down the road or avoid it altogether.  Then we'd be treated to an elder statesman Ali that could speak in coherent sentences.

Risk is not a fucking desirable thing.  That is why you have classes in everything from business to sports that go into the concept of mitigating risk.  This is why we have refs that impose themselves when they should, otherwise you really do have human cockfighting instead of a competitive sport.

[Elsalvajeloco]

14 minutes ago, J.T. said:

It's fucking MMA and Its fucking Boxing is the stupid shit that people say when they want to kick the can down the road or avoid it altogether.  Then we'd be treated to an elder statesman Ali that could speak in coherent sentences.

Risk is not a fucking desirable thing.  That is why you have classes in everything from business to sports that go into the concept of mitigating risk.  This is why we have refs that impose themselves when they should, otherwise you really do have human cockfighting instead of a competitive sport.

Dude, we're talking about the same referee who stopped a fight when a dude's head was like 85% out of a guillotine choke and called that a submission that had to be overturned because of his ineptness. He don't know anything about a happy medium.

Risk is what comes with contact sports. No one told Ali to fight Larry Holmes or fight on after the Thrilla in Manila. No one did. That was on him. Years before we had concussion studies, Ferdie Pecheco TOLD HIM point blank not to fight anymore. That was his choice. It's MMA fighters choice to fight in a sport where you can have a variety of exotic techniques to either win OR lose a fight decisively. You know what keeps the sport from human cockfighting? Not just regulation because the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation proves that not be true. It's good regulation. There is a reason why CABMMA deferred to UFC on several officiating calls in the past. If UFC was still making those calls, let me tell you what terrible referee wouldn't be reffing Cyborg vs. Smith. Marc Ratner, who got in Herdy's ass over the shitshow of Silva/Dober, ain't choosing Eduardo Herdy. That's for damn sure.

[J.T.]

9 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Dude, we're talking about the same referee who stopped a fight when a dude's head was like 85% out of a guillotine choke and called that a submission that had to be overturned because of his ineptness. He don't know anything about a happy medium.

We're way past the talking point of the shitty ref in that fight.  We're talking about Leslie Smith on the business end of a beating from a known headhunter and ruthless finisher out to prove a point in her debut fight in UFC in front of a hometown crowd that loves to see foreign fighters get smashed.

Why the fuck do you allow Leslie to take an asswhooping she doesn't have to?  Because of her pride?  And if Dana thinks Leslie got robbed due to early stoppage, then him speak up and book a rematch in the states and Leslie get her brains caved in there.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, J.T. said:

We're way past the talking point of the shitty ref in that fight.  We're talking about Leslie Smith on the business end of a beating from a known headhunter and ruthless finisher out to prove a point in her debut fight in UFC in front of a hometown crowd that loves to see foreign fighters get smashed.

Why the fuck do you allow Leslie to take an asswhooping she doesn't have to?  Because of her pride?  And if Dana thinks Leslie got robbed due to early stoppage, then him speak up and book a rematch in the states and Leslie get her brains caved in there.

We're also talking about there being other fighters on this show who are way more in the need for protection than Leslie Smith. Where is this passionate plea for Nate Marquardt, who should have retired several fights and concussions ago? Shogun Rua? Lil Nog? Cummins? Vitor Belfort, who was allowed by Osiris Maia to get his head caved in? Yancy Medeiros, who has suffered concussions in the past, who got concussed at least 3x against Massaranduba? Rob Font, who took like hella punishment against John Lineker?

If all those fighters got their day in court, Leslie Smith should get hers. All of them are UFC fighters the same. Just because one fighter has a reputation doesn't give you automatic permission for a shitty stoppage for an irrelevant bout. If fighters choose to go out on their shield, it's something that should not be ignored. If Holly Holm doesn't want to tap to a RNC, let her not tap. Her passing out is as good as a tapout or a verbal submission. That was her choice. Tate wants her arm broken against Ronda? You know what? Let her do it because that's her title and she wants to fight for it. You see Tate complaining about that four or five years later? Nope! If you don't want to give women the same latitude as men, don't have female fights. Herdy is still a terrible referee who made a bad call.

[TheVileOne]

I don't think anyone was happier to get out of Curitiba on Saturday night than Matt Brown.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, TheVileOne said:

I don't think anyone was happier to get out of Curitiba on Saturday night than Matt Brown.

Well, Sunday evening or Monday morning when fighters usually leave town.

[twiztor]

11 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

We're also talking about there being other fighters on this show who are way more in the need for protection than Leslie Smith. Where is this passionate plea for Nate Marquardt, who should have retired several fights and concussions ago? Shogun Rua? Lil Nog? Cummins? Vitor Belfort, who was allowed by Osiris Maia to get his head caved in? Yancy Medeiros, who has suffered concussions in the past, who got concussed at least 3x against Massaranduba? Rob Font, who took like hella punishment against John Lineker?

this has absolutely nothing to do with your quote, but i just wanted to point out:

are we seriously in 2016 and both Shogun Rua and Lil Nogueira got a victory? and both fought a younger fighter than themselves. and both were underdogs. i don't even understand mma sometimes.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Even though Cummins has less miles on him, he is still 35. Cummins is a good wrestler, but if you got one working hand, his chin is there to be hit. Minotoro was a solid enough boxer to do that.

Shogun's problems are not really the same as when he went on that small run before he fought Machida the first time. His problem is that he runs headlong into punches. His chin has fallen just enough to where he can't do that anymore. He was winning the 2nd Henderson fight decisively before he got caught. I think he would probably beat OSP if he didn't jump directly in the line of fire. I think that problem is still going to be present as long as he continues to fight. What helped his cause was that Anderson isn't a big puncher like Hendo or OSP and can't stop a left hand to save his life. Plus, Anderson is on the smallish size for 205. Watching the Embedded earlier in the week, he looked like a giant welterweight who they made to fight at light heavyweight. I think if the opponents were swapped, Cummins would give Shogun a slightly tougher time. If Cummins takes you down, he has the frame like a Bader to keep you down for the entirety of the round. Anderson's wiry frame couldn't keep a wider Shogun from maneuvering himself back up easily. Unless you're someone like Jon Jones who can carve someone up on the ground, that's going to be super tough as a wrestler with so-so striking (offense and defense).

I think in both fights you saw that both Minotoro and Shogun are depreciated as fighters. However, Cummins and Corey Anderson have problems that have been prevalent their entire UFC career show up in spades last Saturday. The same things that caused them to lose other bouts (in the case of Anderson, almost lost him the Lawlor bout as well) caused them to lose those fights.

[The Natural]

[The Natural]