Raw 11-23-15 is Dream Sequences and Jamborees

[The Comedian]

There's so many individual things that people point out as being wrong.  I wonder which one would be the most important:

 

- overscripting the workers not allowing them to become unique

- not letting heels work as heels

- keeping a massive stew of 50/50 midcarders that is basically everyone not in the main event storyline

- bringing in guys hot and then immediately grinding them into that midcard stew

- not bothering to write an real stories for the tag division

- too much t.v. to fill which leads to feuds stretching on endlessly and making us hate guys for working the same match 15 times on t.v.

- too much corporate double speak

 

Don't forget the moveset-based matches. I guess that's part of the larger "obsession with branding" issue too though; doing a rope-hung DDT every match is part of the Randy Orton Brand, regardless of how stupid the required set-up is. Thus the matches are rarely about telling a story; they're more about letting you know which 7 or 8 moves a guy does on a regular basis. Chances are good one of those moves will be a superkick...

[The Nature Boy]

Not to sound cliche but the product also feels sterile and way overproduced. 

[SirSmUgly]

They've had mostly the same stage setup since the late '90s except for the brief time when they moved the announce tables to the top of the stage. 

 

They need a different look. It's not the most important thing in the world, but for as out of touch as Vince McMahon is creatively, Kevin Dunn probably is just as out of touch as a producer after twenty years. 

[The Nature Boy]

They've had mostly the same stage setup since the late '90s except for the brief time when they moved the announce tables to the top of the stage. 

 

They need a different look. It's not the most important thing in the world, but for as out of touch as Vince McMahon is creatively, Kevin Dunn probably is just as out of touch as a producer after twenty years. 

 

At this point, I'd take any kind of change. Put the announce table above the entrance, put them in the announce booth where the TV announcers sit during sporting events at the venue, just change SOMETHING. 

[Charlie M.]

At least we're finding out that it's not just the WWE brand that draws. Who they push still has a significant impact on numbers.

[MGFanJay]

Did they just debut a new Euro stable or nah?   One time thing?  I know they've all teamed together frequently over the past couple months.

 

 

I don't know about this..

That Charlotte action figure has some fantastic articulation.

[Sammo~!]

I guess that makes sense.  But the end result is, if there's a company where the boss comes out from the back room to the main floor and says to the customers "I'm never going to give you assholes anything you like." and you're like "Why?  You're a business right?" and the boss says "Fuck you, that's why."  and then another guy says "No way.  We'll fix this."

 

and so you hang around hoping the good guy wins and the company stops overtly sucking on purpose for some bizarre reason...and it doesn't because that 2nd guy just loses and loses and loses and then gets taken out permanently.

 

And then two years later, you check back in and the same boss is still boss and is still promising to never let you have anything you want and another guy is saying "Don't worry.  We'll fix this."

 

Man...I don't think I'm going back.  I mean, they eventually even got rid of Dov Charney, didn't they?

Today I learned that piranesi shops at Radio Shack 

[The Nature Boy]

 

Did they just debut a new Euro stable or nah?   One time thing?  I know they've all teamed together frequently over the past couple months.

 

 

I don't know about this..

That Charlotte action figure has some fantastic articulation.

 

 

 

 

Your dad is Ric Flair and you haven't seen him do the strut enough to be able to accurately imitate it?

[piranesi]

 

I guess that makes sense.  But the end result is, if there's a company where the boss comes out from the back room to the main floor and says to the customers "I'm never going to give you assholes anything you like." and you're like "Why?  You're a business right?" and the boss says "Fuck you, that's why."  and then another guy says "No way.  We'll fix this."

 

and so you hang around hoping the good guy wins and the company stops overtly sucking on purpose for some bizarre reason...and it doesn't because that 2nd guy just loses and loses and loses and then gets taken out permanently.

 

And then two years later, you check back in and the same boss is still boss and is still promising to never let you have anything you want and another guy is saying "Don't worry.  We'll fix this."

 

Man...I don't think I'm going back.  I mean, they eventually even got rid of Dov Charney, didn't they?

Today I learned that piranesi shops at Radio Shack 

 

 

I really thought Marwan was going to shake things up.  But then Kevin reminded him who the manager really is and that the Sprint kiosk would be the main focus of attention.  MAKE THE SPRINT KIOSK LOOK STRONG, MARWAN!!!  IT'S BEST FOR BUSINESS!!!!

[Spritenaut 32]

Oops.  Never mind.

[joseph2112]

Thing is, it seems like they have an issue letting guys get over. If a guy is getting hot, strap a rocket to him and see where it goes. This always seemed so strange to me with Punk and DB. Ambrose seemingly getting hot, and they turn him into a hot dog vendor. Which leads me to my second point; PG era. I don't think Vince has any idea what that means or how to deal with it. One of the top grossing films(like 24th) of all time was The Lion King, a kids movie. The premise of the movie is second born lion forms a heel faction of hyenas and kills his older brother to take over the kingdom. Now I am not suggesting there should be people killing each other in pro wres, but there are plenty of ways to tell a story that resonates with kids and adults. 

I mean listen, I am no writer by any means but look at Bray Wyatt. The easiest god damn story in the world to write is "cult leader" guy. Read a Charles Manson book, ffs. Him and his flock prey on a persons weakness to join the cult. Sometimes this actually works and this person joins the flock, creating multiple ways to create story lines and make people interesting. Instead, he's never really been anything except a gimmick, that has been pounded into the ground and is pretty much dead at this point. 

[The Comedian]

But of course if the Wyatts had lived up to their potential, they'd have outshone The Authority. Can't have that now, can we?

[Jiji]

They've given Bray so little. The closest we get is his crew carrying somebody to the back. The only time that went anywhere was with Bryan and it lasted two weeks and ended in (an admittedly magnificent moment - all-time Raw moment) Bray being made to look the chump once again. The worst cult leader ever.

[Charlie M.]

They've kept Strowman strong at least.

 

I want Brock vs Braun at Mania with their dueling fat shady advocates on the mic.

[Godfrey]

I would add that the WWEs half commitment to kayfabe isn't helping. Bray is a cult leader who eats people's souls but he's jobbing to a broken down old man who they admitted more than a decade ago is just a guy with a gimmick. Charlotte and Paige have a blood feud brewing but then Paige tells Lana not to book herself a story on Twitter. This kind of middle ground 3 and a 1/2 walls reality can't work long term.

[The Comedian]

Sadly the best they've made Bray look was the build-up months to last year's Mania, when they were feeding Ambrose and Ziggler to him. Which was wrong on two different levels, since they were being fed to him to try to kill their momentum so Roman could outshine them, and Bray was only being fattened for the kill against Taker...

[joseph2112]

And the thing with Bray: It is easy because he wouldn't always have to win. But if he convinced somebody to join the family every now and then, every time he feuded with someone it would create a compelling story. Instead nobody knows what the fuck he's talking about and it goes nowhere. 

 

Edit: Wine. 

[SirSmUgly]

I miss pre-Cena feud when the Wyatt Family had the crowd believing in their bad-assed-ness. 

 

They dismantled people and left the crowd quiet in a good way. See: The crowd after the Bryan match at the '14 Rumble and after the Shield match at the '14 Elimination Chamber. They got to out-Shield the Shield. 

 

Bray should have been feuding with Bryan over the title in the one month that Bryan was able to work post-WM on the basis of having beaten him cleanly at the Rumble. Instead, he was getting his mystique dashed by Cena while Bryan wrestled Kane. 

 

I don't even like Bray very much, but he does have a weird sort of charisma and they probably missed a trick by not replacing the Authority with the Wyatts as the dominant heel group that the faces have to try and overcome. That would have been different in a good way. 

[JCM]

This week on Raw there was a really good lineup of matches that would probably be WWE show of the year if it happened in NXT with their creative team booking it.

 

The main roster just takes the life out of everything right now. Sasha and Becky is my most anticipated rematch in NXT. I fucking loved their match at Takeover, and yet I can't be bothered to even care about them having a match on Raw. I heard it was a short match with a shit finish. I heard Folley saying it was a disgrace they only got 4 minutes, but they need to be built up as characters and they need to give the fans a reason to want to see them wrestle before they go out there and have a long match. The WWE just can't seem to make many people care at this point which is pathetic given the talent they have.

 

I can honestly say I'm looking forward to Eva Marie vs Bayley more than any main roster match that's on the horizon. There may be 50 main roster matches better than Eva/Bayley between now and the end of the year, but none will have the investment of the audience that match will. It all comes down to having faces that are over. You can't book a wrestling show without over baby faces. The heels are fucking over some guys we don't care about oh well. Some guy we don't like is coming for revenge on a dastardly heel good luck but I think I'm going to check out the game. Roman Reigns is crying in ring after failing yet again fuck that guy Stone Cold would never be such a big pussy. This is what the casual fans are saying to themselves as they watch this shit.

[Curt McGirt]

 

 

Ambrose seemingly getting hot

 

Sheeeeeyit, seemingly?! You remember that Raw where he was beating up Rollins and stood on the barricade looking at the crowd and got an Austin-level pop? Them not running with that, just so they could stick his ass in a WWE Films Presentation, shows above all that they don't know where their bread is buttered.

[Patrick B.]

The solution is clear:  The ratings slump is Charlotte's fault.

 

P.S. Never said that, the dirtsheets did.

[Vincey Greene]

Don't worry guys, the ratings always slump when they are building new guys. Like Sheamus?!

On a more legit level, they're boned. Much has been made about how previously when their backs were against the wall, Vince has not been afraid to throw the baby, the bathwater and the tub out and how he has seemingly lost that. It's different. The stock is at a good level. Everything's OK on a business level. Not great, but OK. Now you know and I know they're in trouble. If the product isn't over, nobody is over and I'd imagine they're shedding long time viewers right and left. But I find it fully conceivable that VKM isn't conscious of them being in trouble.

The fun part is that they've ruined literally everybody. From a kayfabe perspective, who's a reasonable face of the company besides Cena?

[Goodear]

Well they've protected Undertaker, The Rock, Daniel Bryan and Triple H.  You know, the most important people to keep strong.

 

Typically, I'm sort of an apologist for WWE's brand of crazy but the product is off the cliff right now and needs a top level shake up.  Continuing to go to the Authority angle when it is so completely dead and buried is so tone deaf at this point.  Compare that to NXT where the company is in a paternal secondary role where the talent drives the angles and it hurts how bad WWE prime is.  NXT would never do to Tyler Breeze what WWE main roster has and he was the midcard gatekeeper there.  In WWE, he is already just another guy.  

[MORELOCK]

They *will not* take Triple H and Stephanie off TV. USA Network pays them money not to do that.

 

And it isn't necessary, anyway. Their presence is not the issue - the way that they're written is the problem. They could easily use them in compelling angles. They just aren't doing it.

[Vincey Greene]

Honestly, they're not the issue. The angle is wack but there were wack angles in the glory days. Remember PMS? THE issue is the 50/50 booking has made everyone the same. Roman is somewhat protected but tough shit, the people don't buy him to the degree they need. Everyone else - besides Cena and Orton - is fucked. Both of them are remarkably stale. They have had multiple organic opportunities to elevate guys who got themselves over and they said no. It's been happening a long long time but for the longest time, it all worked out somewhat anyway because they had other options. And now the chickens are coming home to roost.

 

 

 

I know he's no great shakes, but look at Zack Ryder! Definitely shouldn't be a world champion, but he could be a valuable asset had they just TAKEN WHAT THE PEOPLE GAVE THEM. Same with Cesaro, same to some degree with Owens. Tell me with just minimal build, Bray Wyatt wouldn't be a better champ than Sheamus. Dictating instead of listening doesn't work in any business.

 

 

I worked in telecom for years. Blackberry for the longest was The Phone. Apple dropped the iPhone, people immediately responded positively. Did Blackberry note that, say "hey, this iPhone thing is perhaps where the business is going"? No. They said "They don't know what they really want, they want a shinier Blackberry! With more secure email! And an even better keyboard!" Fast forward a couple years, do you know anyone with a Blackberry?