Joshi Puroresu Discussion Thread

[Kang]

The focus for Stardom will be about attractive women doing good games, matches, bouts or whatever you want to call them.

[Jiji]

4 minutes ago, D.Z said:

The focus for Stardom will be about attractive women doing good games, matches, bouts or whatever you want to call them.

Wildly deviating from their usual formula. 

[quackhell]

7 hours ago, D.Z said:

The focus for Stardom will be about attractive women doing good games, matches, bouts or whatever you want to call them.

So are you implying they should focus on something else? Also...why wouldn't they simply be referred to as matches? 

[Kang]

No I am just stating what was stated.

[quackhell]

Fair enough. 

[Eivion]

9 hours ago, D.Z said:

The focus for Stardom will be about attractive women doing good games, matches, bouts or whatever you want to call them.

The emphasis on attractive is disappointing if legit.

[Jiji]

Wait, why? With few exceptions, Stardom has always been this way. 

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

It's not like Rossy Ogawa didn't book like that in Arsion too. Looks + gaijin = Rossy Ogawa's vision of joshi. Bushiroad's just continuing it.

[quackhell]

It is an interesting talking point I suppose, but to me it hasn't effected the in ring quality. Even the more model-like workers Mina and Unagi have stepped up there game. Have their been workers who fall victim to preference for more "attractive" members of the roster?

Edited August 5, 2021 by quackhell

[Kang]

Everyone in Stardom is attractive so it's ok.

[Eivion]

15 hours ago, Jiji said:

Wait, why? With few exceptions, Stardom has always been this way. 

Not really, its just been a weird fan assumption, like the idea that they are an idol promotion. There are plenty of women who fit the general idea of attractive, but they didn't shy away from those that didn't per say. This makes me slightly worried they will now.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Eivion

[Jiji]

11 minutes ago, Eivion said:

but they didn't shy away from those that didn't per say

I would ask "literally who?" but that would lead us down an unpleasant road. But I think it's safe to say they've always been more after the Cosmic Angels than the Chihiro Hashimotos* of the world, and it feels like they've only leaned more into that over time.

*I think she's cute**! But she's primarily where she is because she's an incredible wrestler.

**(not that it matters)

I know you can't replicate her because she's GOATed and one of a kind, but I think the joshi scene would be tremendously helped if more rookies looked to Hokuto than Toyota for inspiration. Maybe less so the physical destruction aspect and more so the Dangerous Queen persona (which... was significantly built up by her "victory through guts" mentality). 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Jiji

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

1 hour ago, Jiji said:

I would ask "literally who?" but that would lead us down an unpleasant road. But I think it's safe to say they've always been more after the Cosmic Angels than the Chihiro Hashimotos* of the world, and it feels like they've only leaned more into that over time.

*I think she's cute**! But she's primarily where she is because she's an incredible wrestler.

**(not that it matters)

I know you can't replicate her because she's GOATed and one of a kind, but I think the joshi scene would be tremendously helped if more rookies looked to Hokuto than Toyota for inspiration. Maybe less so the physical destruction aspect and more so the Dangerous Queen persona (which... was significantly built up by her "victory through guts" mentality). 

I mean, you brought up Chihiro Hashimoto, so I wouldn't mind seeing more like her. Give me more joshi hosses that could probably suplex two people at once.

Where's our new Bull Nakanos? Should we get Totoro Satsuki to learn a guillotine legdrop?

... I now want Totoro Satsuki to learn a guillotine legdrop.

[quackhell]

To me Tora and Ruaka do channel some of that energy, but it does seem to be something of a dying breed. Not sure that is completely down to companies not signing talent in that mold.

[Eivion]

4 hours ago, Jiji said:

I would ask "literally who?" but that would lead us down an unpleasant road. But I think it's safe to say they've always been more after the Cosmic Angels than the Chihiro Hashimotos* of the world, and it feels like they've only leaned more into that over time.

The only wrestler like Cosmic Angels before was Aikawa. No one else was a former model.

4 hours ago, Jiji said:

I know you can't replicate her because she's GOATed and one of a kind, but I think the joshi scene would be tremendously helped if more rookies looked to Hokuto than Toyota for inspiration. Maybe less so the physical destruction aspect and more so the Dangerous Queen persona (which... was significantly built up by her "victory through guts" mentality). 

I agree with this, but I've also never been a Toyota fan. I appreciate that Giulia wants to go this route though I've yet to really believe her in it.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

I mean, call me crazy, but I don't much care from where people come from if they turn out to be good wrestlers. Tsukasa Fujimoto and Hikaru Shida only got into wrestling because of an acting/idol gig, and they turned out really good. Getting worried because a promotion is going after models or former idols as a recruitment tool seems odd, because if you get good matches out of it, I'm not quite sure what the concern is.

Also, I guess I'll just say it, I have access to 1990s Zenjo if I wanted to watch 1990s Zenjo matches, so I'm totally okay if people didn't try to totally emulate wrestlers from then. (Outside of that guillotine legdrop. C'mon, Totoro. You can do it.)

[Jiji]

I believe it was Ohtani's Jacket that talked last summer about how Hokuto broke into Zenjo hoping to be an idol wrestler. Origins don't matter much but variety is good and there is a lot of sameness going on in the joshi scene right now. I appreciate Tora doing something different even if it's a poor Dump cosplay. 

[Eivion]

1 hour ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I mean, call me crazy, but I don't much care from where people come from if they turn out to be good wrestlers. Tsukasa Fujimoto and Hikaru Shida only got into wrestling because of an acting/idol gig, and they turned out really good. Getting worried because a promotion is going after models or former idols as a recruitment tool seems odd, because if you get good matches out of it, I'm not quite sure what the concern is.

I think you are missing something. I don't really care if they are models or idols. Never have. I just like variety.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

6 hours ago, Eivion said:

I think you are missing something. I don't really care if they are models or idols. Never have. I just like variety.

What am I missing here? You've said that Stardom isn't a promotion that focuses on "attractive" as a recruiting base, but then you moved the goalposts to "well nobody aside from Yuzupon was a former model until the Cosmic Angels showed up". We're talking Stardom here, the promotion that used to have lingerie modeling pictures on their roster's profile pages. This is absolutely in their wheelhouse, and again, ever since Arsion, this is Rossy Ogawa's playbook. Rossy just wasn't as blatant about it in Arsion, and Bushiroad may not care about being as obvious about it.

If you're looking for body type variety, I'm not really sure what you're expecting out of Stardom. That's not what they do unless they can bring gaijin into the country. They might have a couple of folks that don't meet the criteria one would expect, but this is just what they've done pretty much since they were founded. It's like complaining that Tokyo Joshi Pro starts their shows with Up Up Girls.

I'm not sure why people think that "idol promotion" means "bad matches". Like @Jijialluded to, Zenjo was basically an idol promotion in the 1980s. (Let's not act like the Crush Girls, who put out several albums to a screaming teen girl fanbase, weren't treated like idols.) I guess this is residual from when JD Star tried the "athtress" thing in the late-1990s, and people assumed idols in wrestling = automatically bad?

I dunno. I watch a mixture of promotions anyway, that's how I get my variety. (Watch more Ice Ribbon, y'all.)

[Jiji]

Ice Ribbon is fun. That is all. 

[Eivion]

4 hours ago, Stefanie the Human said:

What am I missing here? You've said that Stardom isn't a promotion that focuses on "attractive" as a recruiting base, but then you moved the goalposts to "well nobody aside from Yuzupon was a former model until the Cosmic Angels showed up".

How is talking about a specific comment someone made is moving goalposts?

4 hours ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I'm not sure why people think that "idol promotion" means "bad matches". Like @Jijialluded to, Zenjo was basically an idol promotion in the 1980s. (Let's not act like the Crush Girls, who put out several albums to a screaming teen girl fanbase, weren't treated like idols.) I guess this is residual from when JD Star tried the "athtress" thing in the late-1990s, and people assumed idols in wrestling = automatically bad?

Feels like a bit a stretch to say 1980s Zenjo was an idol promotion when it was basically down to a handful of women doing idols roles. Crush Girls were idols, but I wouldn't say the promotion itself was. JD Star and AWG are what I think of when people talk idol promotions. 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Eivion

[Jiji]

Whatever '70s and '80s AJW was, they were at their hottest when they had Dump and her group of thugs beating the piss out of the idols. Then Bull and Hokuto were key pieces in the early 90s when they were doing massive ticket sales, after the Crush Gals set such a high bar in terms of tv ratings. You have a small taste of that with Oedo Tai but the Joshi scene is 99% of cute, slim girls wrestling a similar style, in similar gear, wrestling similar matches. I would love more deviations from those norms. I understand that they've pretty much lost the teenage girl audience at this point (I appreciate Kidani trying at least) so they lean into the creepy old dude in a tank top viewership and get those fuckers to pay a shit load of money on merch, but I'd love to see more variety. Even Iroha's style and presentation is noticeably different and she's fucking incredible. Give me more of that. Miyuu in TJW carries herself like a badass and I love it. 

I'm really enjoying the Mio/Chihiro stuff we've been getting lately. Great contrast of styles that works so well. Mio is so easy to pull for with her stature and determination but Chihiro is on another level right now. 

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

48 minutes ago, Eivion said:

How is talking about a specific comment someone made is moving goalposts?

Because you went from proclaiming that people saying Stardom recruiting based off looks was a weird fan assumption to saying that they aren't recruiting former models because Cosmic Angels are the first ones since Yuzupon. If your point is saying that their recruitment strategy isn't looks-based because they haven't hired former models in almost a decade... kinda goalpost moving, to me, anyway.

That said, I have lost my interest to keep discussing Stardom's recruitment strategy further, because it's reminding me why discussing practically anything about Stardom that's not either Jungle Kyona's inevitable and fantastic return or how cocky heel Starlight Kid is depresses me.

15 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Whatever '70s and '80s AJW was, they were at their hottest when they had Dump and her group of thugs beating the piss out of the idols. Then Bull and Hokuto were key pieces in the early 90s when they were doing massive ticket sales, after the Crush Gals set such a high bar in terms of tv ratings. You have a small taste of that with Oedo Tai but the Joshi scene is 99% of cute, slim girls wrestling a similar style, in similar gear, wrestling similar matches. I would love more deviations from those norms. I understand that they've pretty much lost the teenage girl audience at this point (I appreciate Kidani trying at least) so they lean into the creepy old dude in a tank top viewership and get those fuckers to pay a shit load of money on merch, but I'd love to see more variety. Even Iroha's style and presentation is noticeably different and she's fucking incredible. Give me more of that. Miyuu in TJW carries herself like a badass and I love it. 

I'm really enjoying the Mio/Chihiro stuff we've been getting lately. Great contrast of styles that works so well. Mio is so easy to pull for with her stature and determination but Chihiro is on another level right now. 

That's why I vary up my viewing and give Ice Ribbon most of my time, because they have probably the most varied roster in joshi in a fun environment. Plus they regularly bring in Rina Yamashita, so how can you go wrong there? But realistically, a lot of joshi falls into the idol-esque trope because that's really what keeps promotions afloat with their target markets, as you mentioned. I don't think we're going to see too many deviations until groups like Stardom or TJPW stop having the levels of success they do. That's not to say I'd love to be wrong, because like I mentioned up thread I'd love to see more hosses, but I think this is what joshi's going to look like for at least the next few years. It might not be a bad thing, because then those who stand out REALLY stand out, but I can understand why some might blanch at the thought of it. (Though I wouldn't mind if more went the Tsukushi route. More stompy little gremlins, please.)

[John E. Dynamite]

I wouldn't mind if some ex-judokas with crew cuts & two-tone singlets showed up and starting kicking the Stardom roster in the face. I think it would help out everybody.

[Eivion]

21 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

Because you went from proclaiming that people saying Stardom recruiting based off looks was a weird fan assumption to saying that they aren't recruiting former models because Cosmic Angels are the first ones since Yuzupon. If your point is saying that their recruitment strategy isn't looks-based because they haven't hired former models in almost a decade... kinda goalpost moving, to me, anyway.

I was saying it wasn't only looks based, and that I prefer variety. Honestly, at the beginning the recruiting was based more on getting younger women to join. The CA/Aikawa comment was just talking about something specific. It wasn't goalpost moving, and I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion unless you are looking for an excuse to.