Raw 3-2-15

[Craig H]

HE'S READY!

 

We need Gregg to weigh in on this and explain why this was a good thing. Or maybe his absence is his way of saying, "no, no, that was pretty dumb, even I can't defend that."

[Rehabilitated Rick]

I got my haircut at the barbershop today by this pretty cute girl and we were exchanging the usual media influenced bullshit small talk topics and then we got onto the topic of my hair, my hair was pretty long as a teenager due to wanting to be Shawn Michaels, well I brought that up not thinking she would know he is or anything. Well turns out this chick is a massive wrestling fan, but wasn't satisfied with the current storylines and the treatment of Cena (she also hates Daniel Bryan, because of his hair) but she was stoked that Randy was back and couldn't wait for him to put Rollins in his place at 'Mania. So yeah, Orton/Rollins isn't a nothing feud, it's actually been built for months and in the eye of the casual it's maybe a big deal?

[Dewar]

Either way, Reigns should not be eating a pin to continue the Orton/Rollins narrative. If anything, Orton's interference should have "backfired" into a Rollins loss, just like when he came out for the Stewart segment.

[Rehabilitated Rick]

Either way, Reigns should not be eating a pin to continue the Orton/Rollins narrative. If anything, Orton's interference should have "backfired" into a Rollins loss, just like when he came out for the Stewart segment.

Oh yeah I agree with you. I would argue against the Rollins/Orton feud being a ''nothing'' feud, though. The booking since Orton's comeback (bar Fastlane) has been totally overly complicated bullshit. Orton should have been all guns blazing last Monday, my interest is waning. But in the eyes of the casual, Orton's inevitable turn will be pretty huge.

[caley]

I understand the logic of continuing to go someplace that pays money to tell you suck ass. I get it, you already got those fucking idiots' money. But tap dancing Jebus H Chris on a cracker, wrestling fans are the worst. It really doesn't help they were in Jersey.

Vince isn't going to kill the business like said fucking idiots are proclaiming. It's jackasses that ruin the shows for the rest of us. Just fucking leave if you're bored as shit. I don't care how much Adderall or Ritalin that gets needllessly pumped into people, use your fucking heads.

It's baffling really.  I would be curious if people's reactions - the "they have the write to cheer/boo/hijack the show if their favourite wrestler isn't winning every single match handily" crowd - would be the same if they were booing a NJPW/NXT show and chanting for more Mojo, or more Jeff Jarrett, when other guys were having good matches.

 

 

I understand the logic of continuing to go someplace that pays money to tell you suck ass. I get it, you already got those fucking idiots' money. But tap dancing Jebus H Chris on a cracker, wrestling fans are the worst. It really doesn't help they were in Jersey.

Vince isn't going to kill the business like said fucking idiots are proclaiming. It's jackasses that ruin the shows for the rest of us. Just fucking leave if you're bored as shit. I don't care how much Adderall or Ritalin that gets needllessly pumped into people, use your fucking heads.

 

What would happen for you to be disgusted with stuffing instead of potatoes and apathetic? What if one of your all time favorites returned after a long absence? What if this guy quickly picked up the IC strap and it looked like he was in line for the big push he always deserved. Then he dropped a fall to Sin Cara. Then he dropped a fall to R-Truth. Next thing you know random people are just walking off with his title.  This guy has inexplicably become one of the biggest jokes on the roster for no reason.

 

 

How has he been turned into the biggest joke on the roster?  He's the champion and everyone is trying to steal his title, in other words, everyone WANTS his title.  Now he's a joke?  Was Dean Malenko a joke when X-Pac stole his title?  I'm fascinated that people shit on WWE for months for not making the IC Title important.  Then they decide to do that with people so determined to take the title that they are literally taking the title, and now it's a joke.

 

 

If that's how you feel, how about not going in the first place?  At some point, you have to realize that your'e just punishing yourself.

 

That's true, but chances are these are people who bought tickets months ago. They had the expectation (and rightfully so) that this would be an exciting show only a few weeks from Wrestlemania. I doubt anyone bought a ticket to boo or not react to what was happening.

 

If the ticket holders to last nights show decided to just not show up as a sign of protest, the usual players would be criticizing them for ruining the show for them.

 

When/who has ever criticized people for not showing up?  Is this a WWE thing?  Also, if you HATE WWE so much that you want to protest it, why would you be offended by them criticizing you?  I mean, if Justin Bieber comes to town to play a concert, do you buy a ticket then go and sit on your hands on the off-chance Justin Bieber might call you out afterwards for not attending?!  No, that's a terrible idea.  So, why would you do it when WWE comes to town?

And I understand the "they bought tickets months ahead of time" argument, but this path has been pretty much set ever since Ambrose lost to Rollins via Bray interference; Ambrose was, realistically, the only possibility to take Roman's spot and that angle made it clear it wasn't happening.

 

Are we back to blaming fans for WWE putting on a product they don't like? Right now the Rollins/Stewart stuff is the only thing I find interesting heading into Mania. How are people supposed to get excited about a show where the 3 top matches feature 3 guys who don't even show up to promote their feuds, and 5 of the 6 people in the 3 headline matches won't even wrestling on Raws or house shows afterwards?

 

How is promoting a bunch of old part timers at the biggest show of the year supposed to make people excited to see the jobber mid carders the other 99% of the time?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's two old part-timers, right?  Sting and Undertaker?  The rest of the card is made up of people who the show has been built around for the bulk of the past year.

[Brysynner]

Either way, Reigns should not be eating a pin to continue the Orton/Rollins narrative. If anything, Orton's interference should have "backfired" into a Rollins loss, just like when he came out for the Stewart segment.

 

For some reason this makes me like the way the finish was booked. Orton wants to screw Rollins but not be so blunt about it, so he lightly grabs Roman's legs and is incredulous that he caused Roman to lose. They needed a reason for Reigns to be pissed enough after the match to do a top rope plancha on the Authority. Of course they could have done about 30 other things to get to that point w/o Reigns losing though....yeah the finish was dumb. I get what they were trying to do but it was dumb (which sadly are also my comments about the 2015 Royal Rumble)

[JohnnyJ]

 

 

I understand the logic of continuing to go someplace that pays money to tell you suck ass. I get it, you already got those fucking idiots' money. But tap dancing Jebus H Chris on a cracker, wrestling fans are the worst. It really doesn't help they were in Jersey.

Vince isn't going to kill the business like said fucking idiots are proclaiming. It's jackasses that ruin the shows for the rest of us. Just fucking leave if you're bored as shit. I don't care how much Adderall or Ritalin that gets needllessly pumped into people, use your fucking heads.

 

What would happen for you to be disgusted with stuffing instead of potatoes and apathetic? What if one of your all time favorites returned after a long absence? What if this guy quickly picked up the IC strap and it looked like he was in line for the big push he always deserved. Then he dropped a fall to Sin Cara. Then he dropped a fall to R-Truth. Next thing you know random people are just walking off with his title.  This guy has inexplicably become one of the biggest jokes on the roster for no reason.

How has he been turned into the biggest joke on the roster?  He's the champion and everyone is trying to steal his title, in other words, everyone WANTS his title.  Now he's a joke?  Was Dean Malenko a joke when X-Pac stole his title?  I'm fascinated that people shit on WWE for months for not making the IC Title important.  Then they decide to do that with people so determined to take the title that they are literally taking the title, and now it's a joke.

 

Since winning the title on 1/5, Barrett has been in nine televised matches (Raw, Smackdown, PPV). His record is 3-6. He longs for the days of 50/50 booking. In less than two months, Barrett has been pinned on tv by Sin Cara, Dean Ambrose, Dolph Ziggler, R-Truth and Daniel Bryan.

 

I don't know how anyone could rationalize this actually being a good thing. I didn't know that was a debatable point. I stand corrected.

[MORELOCK]

Yeah, it isn't the title stealing that makes Barrett a joke, it's that he can't win a match to save his life and he's supposed to be the champion.

[ebbie]

Maybe it's a plan to turn Barrett face. Razor turned face because everyone made fun of him for losing to the Kid.

It sure as hell ain't to finally give him a WM moment. Even though he has been the most well received guy in front I the European crowds, esp considering how's he gets booked.

[Charro!]

 

Jon Stewart cut a better promo & had better on screen presence then the majority of the WWE roster. When that's the case, something needs re-addressing.

He's been on a major comedy show for 17 years and was a stand-up comic for 20 or so years, of course he's a better promo/has more presence

 

Ah OK, didn't know that as I'm not from the US, so only have heard of Jon Stewart's name from the Daily Show. But as I've not actually seen an episode of it, I wasn't aware of his on-screen presence, comedic timing and such. I guess if it was a US comedian I was aware of, say a Dave Chappelle or a Martin Lawrence for example and they were cutting better promo's on 'Raw' than 90% of the roster, then I'd be more conversant with them I guess

[steve]

Re: Reigns dropping a fall-

 

I won't be the 'wins and losses don't matter' guy, but I will say that 95% of the fanbase isn't bothered with wins and losses to the extent that we are. Like, no casual fan whatsoever's going to give this loss a second thought come WM.

[JRGoldman]

I think the problem that some people have with the crowds is that their dislike of the show doesn't seem organic, it seems predetermined. I have no issue with a crowd expressing their displeasure if they truly don't like what they see. I do question why someone would go to a show for the express purpose of handing out chant sheets designed to "hijack Raw", or hum Fandangos theme for three hours straight. I mean, they paid for a ticket so they are well within their rights to do whatever entertains them best, but I think you should probably try other things if your idea of fun is paying a significant amount of money to chant for a guy who hasn't been around for a year. No one thinks it's cool or clever, and it makes literally no difference. I guess I just question the whole point.  

[caley]

 

 

 

I understand the logic of continuing to go someplace that pays money to tell you suck ass. I get it, you already got those fucking idiots' money. But tap dancing Jebus H Chris on a cracker, wrestling fans are the worst. It really doesn't help they were in Jersey.

Vince isn't going to kill the business like said fucking idiots are proclaiming. It's jackasses that ruin the shows for the rest of us. Just fucking leave if you're bored as shit. I don't care how much Adderall or Ritalin that gets needllessly pumped into people, use your fucking heads.

 

What would happen for you to be disgusted with stuffing instead of potatoes and apathetic? What if one of your all time favorites returned after a long absence? What if this guy quickly picked up the IC strap and it looked like he was in line for the big push he always deserved. Then he dropped a fall to Sin Cara. Then he dropped a fall to R-Truth. Next thing you know random people are just walking off with his title.  This guy has inexplicably become one of the biggest jokes on the roster for no reason.

How has he been turned into the biggest joke on the roster?  He's the champion and everyone is trying to steal his title, in other words, everyone WANTS his title.  Now he's a joke?  Was Dean Malenko a joke when X-Pac stole his title?  I'm fascinated that people shit on WWE for months for not making the IC Title important.  Then they decide to do that with people so determined to take the title that they are literally taking the title, and now it's a joke.

 

Since winning the title on 1/5, Barrett has been in nine televised matches (Raw, Smackdown, PPV). His record is 3-6. He longs for the days of 50/50 booking. In less than two months, Barrett has been pinned on tv by Sin Cara, Dean Ambrose, Dolph Ziggler, R-Truth and Daniel Bryan.

 

I don't know how anyone could rationalize this actually being a good thing. I didn't know that was a debatable point. I stand corrected.

 

But it's not really presented as a big deal.  It's not being presented as "Wade Barrett is a terrible wrestler, he's losing to all these guys", so much as "Wade Barrett is being distracted by all the insanity around him and is losing because of it".  

 

As much as it's an internet talking point, WWE wrestlers aren't really hurt by wins/losses.  Remember the Daniel Bryan losing streak?  I do, I'm sure you do, but I'd wager the majority of the people chanting "Yes!" to everything he does do not.  Remember the Damien Sandow dress up as a rival player/Magneto run where he lost EVERY week?  Again, I do, but I'd wager the majority of the people cheering him against Miz don't.

 

Also, of the guys he's lost to, three of them are high-level guys: a former world champ who just took the #1 contender to the limit, the guy who sent the Authority packing and is also a former world champ and the guy who was in a heckuva lot of main events last year.  Only R-Truth and Sin Cara are really below his level type guys he shouldn't be dropping falls to, and both of those were flukes.  

 

So, again, I don't really see him being one of the "biggest jokes".

[MORELOCK]

Maybe it's a plan to turn Barrett face. Razor turned face because everyone made fun of him for losing to the Kid.

 

Glad you brought this up - the reason the Kid winning in that fluke match was such a big deal and put him on the map on a national level was because Razor didn't lose every week. When that happened in May of 1993, the last time Razor had done a televised job was January at the Rumble - to the World Champion, Bret Hart.

 

Re: Reigns dropping a fall-

 

I won't be the 'wins and losses don't matter' guy, but I will say that 95% of the fanbase isn't bothered with wins and losses to the extent that we are. Like, no casual fan whatsoever's going to give this loss a second thought come WM.

 

This being DVDVR, it's more like 99% of the fanbase isn't bothered with *anything* to the extent that we are. The fans do care about wins and losses when they are conditioned to (see below example), which they haven't been in a long time.

 

But it's not really presented as a big deal.  It's not being presented as "Wade Barrett is a terrible wrestler, he's losing to all these guys", so much as "Wade Barrett is being distracted by all the insanity around him and is losing because of it".  

 

As much as it's an internet talking point, WWE wrestlers aren't really hurt by wins/losses.

 

This is just wrong, and short-sighted. A year ago Brock pinning Taker at WrestleMania stunned everyone watching into silence because Taker's win-loss record was so well protected, and Brock beating him and then Cena the way he did rebuilt him as an unstoppable monster after ill-advised 50/50 booking with HHH and Punk. Now they're trying to legitimize Reigns as a main eventer using a win over Brock.

 

Just because Bryan and Sandow's careers weren't over doesn't mean those losses didn't hurt them. Remember that Sandow was a former MITB winner before all that - he is far below where he was.

[odessasteps]

Obviously we're all living in Bizarro-land

Montreal?

[The Green Meanie]

 

Obviously we're all living in Bizarro-land

Montreal?

 

 

 

Or whenever the crowd is rather vocally active they call it a "European crowd".

[Eivion]

Remember that Sandow was a former MITB winner before all that - he is far below where he was.

Not really. He is a former tag champ and significantly more over than he has ever been before since coming up to the main roster.

 

[MGFanJay]

People said Bryan shouldn't face Lesnar due to health concerns related to his recent neck problems.

 

Don't worry, he'll be in a much less dangerous ladder schmozz.

Bryan took a half nelson suplex in a nothing TV match. He seems to want to be forced into retirement.

[Go2Sleep]

Things they did right with Roman this week:

 

- His clear out of J/J in the opening promo

- Pulling Mercury into the ring with one leg

- His dive/general house cleaning of the authority at the end

 

Things they did wrong:

 

- Giving him a speaking role in the opening promo

- Eating the pin in the main

- Announcers unironically comparing him to Rocky Balboa

 

It's frustrating, because any time they do something right, you know some setback is right around the corner for him.

 

The build for Mania this year is pretty bad between Roman's ups and downs, the seriously-underrated awful Orton/Rollins feud, and attempting to create drama where there isn't any (will Orton turn on Rollins, will Cena be on the card, will Taker show up). Just announce the damn matches and build up anticipation for the showdowns. Of course, if HHH/Sting is any indication, they're no good at that either.

[Personal Jesus]

As someone who's always been very high on the fact that crowd participation is an important part of wrestling and fans should (for the most part) be able to cheer and boo however they want and have the right to show displeasure to workers being shoved down their throat, the Jersey crowd for Cena/Axel annoyed the living bejesus out of me. To the point I had the change the channel in disgust. It wasn't showing the WWE what they wanted, it was honestly just them being dicks for the sake of being dicks.

 

I will still say though, to those saying "if you don't like WWE's booking, don't support, simple!", it really isn't that simple. At the end of the day, RAW is one show, but a show consisting of numerous totally different and often unrelated segments. So ultimately, a fan can like one angle (and be at a RAW for one angle or worker), but not be happy about and/or not give two shits about the other angle. As a fan at home watching tv, I can simply change the channel for shit I find bad or unimportant. But live, you can't. You can maybe leave get a snack for one segment, take a couple piss breaks, but you can't go for 3 hours and say "well, I'm gonna watch the Daniel Bryan and Seth Rollins related stuff cause I like them/they're booked well, and then just be quiet with my displeasure for the other segments". If you cheer at things to like (accepted, important part of the show), you're also gonna show your displeasure to what you don't like.

 

I mean, you can like the NFL, but still not want to watch the Jaguars/Raiders. And the NFL doesn't/shouldn't tell me "In order to watch the Super Bowl tonight, you're gonna have to sit thru Jags/Raiders, Bucs/Browns and Falcons/Vikings for the next 6 hours first". If you want people to react positively to every, make everything quality. Most fans are going for 1 or 2 angles and suffering through the rest. That doesn't make them stupid or mean they should give up their fandom, because they genuinely enjoy those one or two angles. It means the WWE should stop putting really bad filler all in between the good shit. It's not even like you can leave because the book RAW as -> Important Opener -> filler -> important hour 2 angle -> filler -> imporant hour 3 opener -> wrestlecrap segments just because -> main event. You're forcing live fans to suffer though filler to get to important shit for no real reason. Just make the fucking filler better, WWE, it's not that hard.

[Fallacy!]

Re: Reigns dropping a fall-

 

I won't be the 'wins and losses don't matter' guy, but I will say that 95% of the fanbase isn't bothered with wins and losses to the extent that we are. Like, no casual fan whatsoever's going to give this loss a second thought come WM.

 

That's true, but I think it's one of the biggest problems the WWE currently has. Hardly anything seems important because you're right, wins and losses don't matter, except in rare cases where the WWE makes it a point to make us care.

[BobbyWhioux]

Re:  the fan participation and/or consumer revolt:

 

I've been paying more attention to internet chatter about wrestling in the wake of the Roman Reigns backlash than I have in years (both here on the board and podcasts/columns, etc.) even though I haven't started actually watching again.

 

Maybe this has already been talked to death and I just wasn't following/participating with you guys but I'm just now getting around to what Lance Storm's assessment has been in his website column and on podcasts (especially the first 6 minutes of this), and his theory seems to make a lot of sense to me.

[_MJ_]

Can we talk about how cold that "Poster Boy" line from Jon Stewart was on Raw?

"You're the authority's poster boy. Well let me tell you something about posters...boy. They get taken down when people get tired of em."

The Jay-Z inspired punchline.  Someone on the WWE roster needed to delivered that line months ago.

 

-Roman Reigns played football for awhile right?  What were his vert numbers?  After that flying spear on Big Show and his suicide jump this week, I need to know.

 

-I'm with the people saying this John Cena storyline has some bite and intrigue to it so far.  Yes, it's still the "Cena has to  overcome the odds" bit but I like that this one has more spite and venom to it.  WWE has an interesting opportunity with Cena as he enters this next phase(and maybe last?) of his career.  It's more than just a "Do you still got it?" cliche with Cena.  It's about staying relevant(high profile match at Mania), being the best, and keeping up with the new guys.  Pretty much what they could have ran with Austin before his body broke down on him.

Edited March 4, 2015 by _MJ_

[Burgundy LaRue]

I will still say though, to those saying "if you don't like WWE's booking, don't support, simple!", it really isn't that simple. At the end of the day, RAW is one show, but a show consisting of numerous totally different and often unrelated segments. So ultimately, a fan can like one angle (and be at a RAW for one angle or worker), but not be happy about and/or not give two shits about the other angle. As a fan at home watching tv, I can simply change the channel for shit I find bad or unimportant. But live, you can't. You can maybe leave get a snack for one segment, take a couple piss breaks, but you can't go for 3 hours and say "well, I'm gonna watch the Daniel Bryan and Seth Rollins related stuff cause I like them/they're booked well, and then just be quiet with my displeasure for the other segments". If you cheer at things to like (accepted, important part of the show), you're also gonna show your displeasure to what you don't like.

 

You make good points.  But the problem as I see it is that many online fans say they hardly like anything being booked right now.  They don't like 20-minute promos from The Authority, 15-minute promos from Rollins, how Orton isn't tearing Rollins limb from limb, that Kane and Big Show are still around, how Bryan is or isn't being handled, how Bray seems to be babbling to himself, how the commentators just prattle, and Roman Reigns/the divas in general.  Well, that's most of the show.  So why would I, if I hated that much of the produce, bother buying a ticket to attend a live show?

 

I don't even disagree with some of the dislikes.  But I'm also not spending my good money on a show where I'm going to be miserable 80% of the time like some are.

[Beech27]

-Roman Reigns played football for awhile right?  What were his vert numbers?  After that flying spear on Big Show and his suicide jump this week, I need to know.

 

He was a defensive tackle at Georgia Tech. According to this, he jumped 33.5 inches at his campus pro day, while weighing 303 lbs. Assuming he's close to the 265 lbs Wikipedia says he weighs right now, it's not unreasnoable to expect his vertical is closer to 40 inches at the moment.