Art of Wrestling with Colt Cabana v2.0

[jaedmc]

I'm going to step in here right now and let you all know that if you can't fucking speak to each other like human beings now that Part 2 is out, I'm going to just scroll down the page, collect every name of every person who is here, and hand out some time off. I won't even read most of the posts. Napalm Death.

 

That's the first and last.

[Brysynner]

 

This thread has derailed into Bizarroland this morning.

 

Everyone here does realize that NXT and many of the wrestlers live in Florida for tax purposes correct?

 

That's not what this is about. This is about Vince pushing expenses on guys that they'll then need to keep their jobs for. He wants less Brock Lesnars and more...well, whatever Kofi Kingston is. 

 

 

That's not a bad thing...a bunch of mid-carders like Kofi with a small handful of Brock Lesners would keep people entertained for years

[Hagan]

One thing about Colt that strikes me as opposed to guys like Jericho, Cornette, Ross and Austin is that he tends to complain about annoying fans more. It gets a little wearisome but we get that it's annoying to be called your shoot name or have some idiot fan yammer on about you being a quitter or a loser but those other guys don't complain about it as much.

 

I think it tends to give Colt a whiff of bitterness. Like Punk, he doesn't seem to be a guy that particularly likes professional wrestling all that much. 

[Greggulator]

Vince forcing his talent to do things to become beholden to him is essentially what every capitalist ever does. It's a factory town type thing. What do you think employer-sponsored health insurance coverage is?

I'm pretty fascinated by living arrangements for wrestlers. I think Ambrose said somewhere his place is essentially just where he keeps his stuff, since they're on the road so much. Why would you buy a house if you're only there for two days a week and maybe some off time for injuries or being written off for a bit? It's different if you have a family (especially kids) but if you're single, why would you want a 30-year financial commitment for something that really serves you no purpose?

 

[JohnnyJ]

Providing your staff with a job will inevitably lead to them become reliant on your paycheck. I'm reliant on my paycheck and will jump through a bunch of hoops to keep it. Does that make my boss evil?

 

At the end of the day, this is a worker's rights issue. It really comes down to the fact that there is no other place in the industry you can make a living. When there is no other place to make a living, the workers have zero bargaining power. This gets clouded by the fact that WWE pays its performers pretty well.

 

The wrestlers are just independent contractors. If you are an independent contractor who is in high demand and worth a lot, you should be entitled to pick and choose which dates you want to work and you should not be forced to have your merchandise and sponsorships run through a corporation you are not employed by. 

 

But in the WWE, that's just the way it is. 

 

Looks at someone like Brock. Brock is an independent contractor who is in high demand and because of his UFC ties has lots of bargaining power. Due to this bargaining power, he works when he wants, has some control over his sponsorships and I would presume his paydays are in writing. 

 

Is Brock a bigger draw than Punk? Is there a reason why Brock can sit at home for two months while the champ and Punk is forced to work hurt?

 

My take from the second part of the interview is that WWE needs to do a much better job of caring about the quality life of their top talents. Punk sounded creatively, mentally and physically broken. And underlying most of his gripes was the desire to get off the hamster wheel for a bit so that he could heal up, recharge his batteries and have a life. None of these things sound unreasonable but for some reason are impossible the way the WWE is set up. 

[Technico Support]

The whole "independent contractor" thing is a joke and it's a testament to WWE's power, the fact that wrestlers are too job-scared to fight it, and the fact that nobody cares about pro wrestling, that they can still classify their employees as such. 

[nate]

I miss when we had a "Colt Cabana is a murderer" meme.

[Vincey Greene]

It's funny how many of Punk's issues would be solved by a rotating off season for everyone. You can even keep people on TV, just rotate who is and isn't working house shows and tours. I'll demonstrate, using a handful of talents.

 

 

January/February - Punk, Ambrose, Justin Gabriel, and AJ Lee are all off.

March/April - everyone working due to WM buildup

May/June - Cena, Rollins, Paige, and Zach Ryder are all off.

July/August - everyone working due to Summerslam buildup

Sept/Oct - Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Orton, and Naomi are all off.

Nov/Dec - Ryback, Big E, Reigns, and Alicia Fox are all off.

 

Done. Now why can a commissioned retail salesman figure these things out and the preeminent wrestling company can't?

[The Nature Boy]

If it were financially feasible, I'd advocate for just getting rid of house shows. 

[Cole Miner]

If it were financially feasible, I'd advocate for just getting rid of house shows. 

It is not even close to feasible. Not even worth mentioning they would lose so much money. Second largest source of income behind tv rights.

[TheVileOne]

 

You're right to a point, but most business relationships of lasting value are built on a certain amount of trust. If you have to get everything in writing, then you're in a bad place and it's probably time to move on.

 

 

He's already in a bad place because they pulled him from Wizard World without notifying him.  He found out about it via Twitter.  I am just saying, if he was that committed toward working the show for X amount of money, he should've gotten a written guarantee because as he says he's an independent contractor.

 

I'm just saying, it was bad negotiating on his part.  If he is negotiating for a higher house show fee, he should've gotten something in writing to prove they would pay him that much.

 

I don't get paid half as much as Punk and I can't expect my work to accommodate my side gigs. If I've got a side gig I want to do badly enough, I take a vacation day from work. If they won't let me have a vacation day and tell me they need me, tough apples for me. Priority one is the people who pay your bills.

 

 

 

OK, but just to ask are you an independent contractor where you work?  But regardless, this wasn't a side gig.  It was probably a convention appearance arranged by WWE brass.  They switched around the guys because they needed Punk's name value for a Mexico tour that was selling poor in terms of tickets.  Punk was not informed by Wizard World or WWE management about the change.  He found out about it from a tweet.  IMHO, that is unprofessional.  

 

Yes, WWE is very busy and there are probably a lot of spinning plates.  But if officials agreed Punk would get paid $20,000 or more, they should've honored that agreement.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

I understand your point, but from my experience of things it just doesn't seem that realistic to expect to get a written guarantee of something like that.. It would seem like you are being awkward and untrusting, which may well be justified but it still doesn't look good. What you're essentially talking about is contract change, so now that has to go through Compliance/Legal yaddayaddayadda - you can't just ask for that kind of thing, in my experience. Your mileage may differ.

[TheVileOne]

I understand your point, but from my experience of things it just doesn't seem that realistic to expect to get a written guarantee of something like that.. It would seem like you are being awkward and untrusting, which may well be justified but it still doesn't look good. What you're essentially talking about is contract change, so now that has to go through Compliance/Legal yaddayaddayadda - you can't just ask for that kind of thing, in my experience. Your mileage may differ.

 

From my experience it is very realistic, except not in the amounts Punk is looking for.  I always at least try to get it down via e-mail since that counts.  There were times were payments came late, but I was always paid what was originally agreed upon.  I always try to get the amount down in e-mail at least because that counts as a written record. 

[Tromatagon]

$20,000 was probably the minimum too, right? I know at some cons it works kind of like a downside guarantee vs whatever you actually make selling autographs and photo ops

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

 

I understand your point, but from my experience of things it just doesn't seem that realistic to expect to get a written guarantee of something like that.. It would seem like you are being awkward and untrusting, which may well be justified but it still doesn't look good. What you're essentially talking about is contract change, so now that has to go through Compliance/Legal yaddayaddayadda - you can't just ask for that kind of thing, in my experience. Your mileage may differ.

 

From my experience it is very realistic, except not in the amounts Punk is looking for.  I always at least try to get it down via e-mail since that counts.  There were times were payments came late, but I was always paid what was originally agreed upon.  I always try to get the amount down in e-mail at least because that counts as a written record. 

 

 

An email is better than nothing, but there's probably something in the contract that says that terms can only be overridden by Vince or maybe a couple of other people - ultimately these things only 'count' if you're going to sue over it or, more likely, if you can convince the other side that you might.

[TheVileOne]

If it were financially feasible, I'd advocate for just getting rid of house shows. 

 

I would advocate the same.  I realize how important house shows and international touring is to the bottom line, but IMHO it's not a sustainable long-term touring model and the roster is working itself to death.  How many more miraculous recoveries can John Cena go through?

[AxB]

It's funny how many of Punk's issues would be solved by a rotating off season for everyone. You can even keep people on TV, just rotate who is and isn't working house shows and tours. I'll demonstrate, using a handful of talents.

 

 

January/February - Punk, Ambrose, Justin Gabriel, and AJ Lee are all off.

March/April - everyone working due to WM buildup

May/June - Cena, Rollins, Paige, and Zach Ryder are all off.

July/August - everyone working due to Summerslam buildup

Sept/Oct - Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Orton, and Naomi are all off.

Nov/Dec - Ryback, Big E, Reigns, and Alicia Fox are all off.

 

Done. Now why can a commissioned retail salesman figure these things out and the preeminent wrestling company can't?

 

The worst part is, TNA does do exactly that, and has for years.

 

Tom Zenk talked about how, when he told the WWF he was leaving at the end of his contract, they told him he should buy a bigger house?

[Cristobal]

Done. Now why can a commissioned retail salesman figure these things out and the preeminent wrestling company can't?

Because the preeminent wrestling company doesn't give a shit about what a commissioned retail salesman thinks as long as you remain a profit center for them.

They barely give a shit about what their workersindependent contractors think, (and unless your name is John Cena, it's not a full shit.)

If having Punk on the house shows in January/February means more tickets sold, then fuck him, he's working January/February, just like he would all the other months.

And if he says no, then he's hard to work with, then he doesn't care about the boys, then he's a prima donna, then yadda yadda.

And that's Punk. If it's Kofi, then blahblah best of luck future endeavors etc.

[odessasteps]

The only thing i would expect less than Punk in a wwe ring now is him showing up at the Chikara season finale this weekend.

[Cristobal]

You're trying to reverse-jinx it, aren't you?

[HumanChessgame]

 

If it were financially feasible, I'd advocate for just getting rid of house shows. 

 

I would advocate the same.  I realize how important house shows and international touring is to the bottom line, but IMHO it's not a sustainable long-term touring model and the roster is working itself to death.  How many more miraculous recoveries can John Cena go through?

 

 

I agree in principle, but aside from the revenue they generate house shows also provide invaluable opportunities for newer guys to get experience and for them to try out angles and run through matches they're going to place on bigger cards.

[Victator]

One thing about Colt that strikes me as opposed to guys like Jericho, Cornette, Ross and Austin is that he tends to complain about annoying fans more. I

Colt is all like "and these fans say things like 'who are you?' and 'no I do not want a polaroid'."

On the house thing, Tom Zenk said Vince tried to pressure him into buying a house that was really out of his prize range. Promising it would be paid off within a year or two.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Colt is a tough listen on these my God. He sounds like the guy from the Tom Green show who used to sit in the background and just laugh at everything. He's such a condescending prick towards fans. I hate his whiny voice when he's reading e-mails and calling everyone stupid. There were a lot of legitimate questions! Come on.

[evilwaldo]

 

 

If it were financially feasible, I'd advocate for just getting rid of house shows. 

 

I would advocate the same.  I realize how important house shows and international touring is to the bottom line, but IMHO it's not a sustainable long-term touring model and the roster is working itself to death.  How many more miraculous recoveries can John Cena go through?

 

 

I agree in principle, but aside from the revenue they generate house shows also provide invaluable opportunities for newer guys to get experience and for them to try out angles and run through matches they're going to place on bigger cards.

 

 

Not just that but the occasional Smackdown and regular house shows reinforce stuffing instead of potatoes in fans minds.

 

The travel schedule has always been brutal but that speaks to the Creative not having enough main event stars where they can rotate guys around and give them regular time off.

 

I think there is an incentive from the workers to fill their dates as early as possible as well.  You don't want to take time off early in a deal and then cram every date into the end of the contract when you might be battling injuries.

 

When I got out of college I worked in a growing family owned catering company and did a lot of work because jobs were tough.  I cleaned some banquet halls, worked as a waiter, etc to make ends .  During the busy season there were times I would work for a month straight with no time off and every once in a while pop off at the owner who understood my value and let me do so.  I got a week off but came back refreshed. 

 

It some ways it seems parallel to this situation because of the workload and the boss but in the end we always worked stuff out. 

 

It happens and the key is to work through that stress but not to hold onto it long term.  Say your piece, release it, and move on.

 

I don't think that Punk needs to come back but he should not hold a grudge.  Vince has been through this so many times that I think he would be happy with any solution where the bridges are not burned.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Da Big Guy responds.