NOV WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[The Nature Boy]

 

Can someone please tell me how Kevin Sullivan ever got over as a demonic heel? 

 

I can't listen to the guy talk without expecting him to talk about the Sox, the Pats or the Bruins. He has such a stereotypical Boston accent. 

 

 

Maybe they ran a lot of New York shows.

 

 

I mean, he WAS in Florida and there are a lot of New Yorkers in Florida. I always imagine him cutting a promo after the 1986 World Series and cursing Bill Buckner.

 

"Bill Buckna, you have anga'ed the spirits. You are wicked reta'ted and I hope you die. I am puttin' a curse on ya, you stupid bastid. Go Sox, fuck the damn Yankees." 

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Can someone please tell me how Kevin Sullivan ever got over as a demonic heel?

I can't listen to the guy talk without expecting him to talk about the Sox, the Pats or the Bruins. He has such a stereotypical Boston accent.

It makes him the devil in my book.

[The Nature Boy]

 

Can someone please tell me how Kevin Sullivan ever got over as a demonic heel?

I can't listen to the guy talk without expecting him to talk about the Sox, the Pats or the Bruins. He has such a stereotypical Boston accent.

It makes him the devil in my book.

 

 

I mean, I hate anyone with a New Yawk accent so that's understandable. 

[RandomAct]

Started making my way through that list over the weekend from the bottom up.

First real exposure to NXT. I'm sold on Bayley......torn on Charlotte - great heel worker, but just.....tranny.......tranny......tranny.

 

That Christian/Orton match from Summerslam is odd. It's pretty good in an isolated context, but for a middle of the card match, they just kick out of fucking everything, it's weird to watch as its so rare to see these guys protected to that extent.

 

The M-Pro six man from Barely Legal does not age well.

I think what hurt the M-Pro tag from Barely Legal is that we all got exposed to much more M-Pro over the years, and thusly saw much better stuff.

[Super Ape]

Talked to Pete a little bit since he was at the JAPW show in Rahway last night and he told me their next show is in March.  It got me thinkin'...

 

One of the biggest complaints that gets tossed around here regarding WWE is that you can only watch the great matches in a vacuum so much.  And yet, most indy promotions and the factors involved in booking them (limited cards, getting the workers available for the show, injuries) mean that most of those matches are in a vacuum of continuity or, at the very least, given fairly minimal storyline.

 

So to those of us who follow the indies, how is that any different from what we complain about with the 'E?

[Victator]

 

 

Ted Levine is my favorite actor at the moment and often use him as a comparison as to why wrestling fans for some fucking reason think just because a character did something in one fed means it will translate to another fed. Characters and shit, you know.

 

You do not get wrestling. 

 

 

Is that why WWF Hogan work so well in WCW?

 

 

Also that hour long match between HBK and Hart is a total waste of time until the last 5-10 minutes. Which typical for a HBK match tbh. But I have a distain for long matches for the stake of having a long match.

 

The fact you said that shows you don't know what you are talking about. WWF Hulk Hogan and WCW Hogan are very different beast.

[Web Conn]

Yeah WWF Hulk Hogan had restraint. Get it right! or off the board!

[mattdangerously]

Ted Levine is my favorite actor at the moment and often use him as a comparison as to why wrestling fans for some fucking reason think just because a character did something in one fed means it will translate to another fed. Characters and shit, you know.

You do not get wrestling.

Is that why WWF Hogan work so well in WCW?

Also that hour long match between HBK and Hart is a total waste of time until the last 5-10 minutes. Which typical for a HBK match tbh. But I have a distain for long matches for the stake of having a long match.

The fact you said that shows you don't know what you are talking about. WWF Hulk Hogan and WCW Hogan are very different beast.

Considering the amount of effort WCW put into transforming into a retread of Hulkamania-era WWF, I don't get your meaning.

[Matt D]

There's a level of paranoia in post 93 Hogan that didn't exist previously.

[SirSmUgly]

I'm sitting here watching RAW from July 31, 1995, and Hunter Hearst Helmsley comes out to face Jeff Hardy in a three-minute squash, which is of course amazing considering that they would wrestle over the WWE Championship about fourteen years later on PPV. 

 

My question is whether there are other TV matches where two guys wrestle years before they would blow up and main event against one another. I'd love to see some of them. I'm really talking more about matches where one or both of the wrestlers wasn't a guy that one would have expected to blow up and be that prominent years later. 

[The Nature Boy]

I'm sitting here watching RAW from July 31, 1995, and Hunter Hearst Helmsley comes out to face Jeff Hardy in a three-minute squash, which is of course amazing considering that they would wrestle over the WWE Championship about fourteen years later on PPV. 

 

My question is whether there are other TV matches where two guys wrestle years before they would blow up and main event against one another. I'd love to see some of them. 

 

Steve Austin and The Undertaker had a few matches against each other in the USWA in 1989. 

[Victator]

 

 

 

 

Ted Levine is my favorite actor at the moment and often use him as a comparison as to why wrestling fans for some fucking reason think just because a character did something in one fed means it will translate to another fed. Characters and shit, you know.

You do not get wrestling.

Is that why WWF Hogan work so well in WCW?

Also that hour long match between HBK and Hart is a total waste of time until the last 5-10 minutes. Which typical for a HBK match tbh. But I have a distain for long matches for the stake of having a long match.

The fact you said that shows you don't know what you are talking about. WWF Hulk Hogan and WCW Hogan are very different beast.

Considering the amount of effort WCW put into transforming into a retread of Hulkamania-era WWF, I don't get your meaning.

 

WWF Hogan was very giving and worked hard to get everybody over. WCW Hogan was selfish and like Matt said very paranoid. He did not put anyone over and gave very little offense in matches. The only notable exceptions being the Giant and Kamala. He would not even sell for Brutus who was no threat to him.

He only lost to Flair and Arn Anderson after the WWF made fun of him in a Billionaire Ted skit.

After he turned heel he was more giving, but selfish in new ways.

[Brian Fowler]

There is that John Cena vs. Bryan Danielson Velocity match as well.

[E.J.]

There's an early 2000s Smackdown tag match featuring Orton/Venis vs. Devon/Batista. Orton and Batista get a lot of ring time together and I believe Batista pins Orton.

[The Nature Boy]

Would CM Punk vs. Bryan Danielson in ROH count? 

[pgi86]

In a brand new interview Alberto Del Rio says he's about to sign a deal with two US companies with a TV deal and start working for them in January. And that's in addition to him continuing to work for AAA in Mexico, and indy dates here and there.

 

One company is definitely Lucha Underground, and I'm guessing the other one is TNA. So yeah, looks like we're about to see a whole lot of Del Rio in 2015.

[BurningBeard]

Going back to iron man matches - the Triple H vs Benoit one from RAW pretty much killed the gimmic didn't it? I've not seen one in WWE since. Add me to the list of Lesnar/Angle fans

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Cena and Orton did one.

[ebbie]

Cena and Orton did one.

 

Was that the one with the kid be all kinds of unimpressed in the gif?

[RandomAct]

Talked to Pete a little bit since he was at the JAPW show in Rahway last night and he told me their next show is in March.  It got me thinkin'...

 

One of the biggest complaints that gets tossed around here regarding WWE is that you can only watch the great matches in a vacuum so much.  And yet, most indy promotions and the factors involved in booking them (limited cards, getting the workers available for the show, injuries) mean that most of those matches are in a vacuum of continuity or, at the very least, given fairly minimal storyline.

 

So to those of us who follow the indies, how is that any different from what we complain about with the 'E?

Most indy matches are far less storyline driven.  For the most part, the focus is much more on the focus of athletics, and in some cases, strictly on it being a good match in a vacuum.  A great match will get dad to bring junior next month far more effectively than a compelling storyline.

 

WWE very much relies on you caring about the characters to sell a match, and if you don't give a shit about any of their guys, it will kill your enjoyment of the match.

[thee Reverend Axl Future]

Alberto Del Rio with Ricardo were at the House of Hardcore show this past Saturday, and Tommy Dreamer implied he was getting TV (which every indie promoter is wont to promise), so even tho' it's an extreme longshot I believe ADR would be more likely to sign up for this minimal commitment over TNA's more restrictive and probably short-term contract. All speculation...

Also, when I complained about speeches from wrestlers beating you over the head with platitudes and guilt, I meant more workers (Bubba gave a monologue post-show) than the owner (Dreamer also gave a short speech). At least I can believe that the owner would abase himself to the fans, and sentimentality is Dreamer's gimmick anyway.

- mark for Tommy?,

RAF

[Matt D]

Back to Hogan in 94-95 WCW:

 

1.) He wouldn't let Flair win the second match in their series, which was such a no brainer from a booking perspective. Split the matches, make a rubber match, put the career stip on the line there.

2.) He wouldn't let Vader beat him down to build up their match but insisted Vader beat down Bockwinkel instead.

3.) The Brutus thing is amazing. A masked man attacks him for a while, he finally gets his hands on him and legdrops him, in the middle of the ring, after a match. Once he has the guy completely at his mercy, he unmasks him and it's Bruti. But by this point he already legdropped him. The heat was already blown off, basically. It was insane. It's probably the worst build for a match I can imagine.

4.) He puts over the giant by losing by DQ and the Jimmy Hart turn due to a shady contract. This is after knocking him off a building during the Monster Truck thing. It'd be one thing if you were putting over Diamond Dallas Page or Honky Tonk Man or hell, even 95 Flair that way, but the Giant in his big debut? Look at the BS way he lost the title to Andre in 88 or Undertaker in 91 and then compare it to the Giant in 95. It's night and day even though both are bullshit.

 

You could go on and on (like the match where he and Savage beat everyone in the cage or later on him bringing Warrior in just to get his win back). 

 

He'd let guys (from Perfect destroying the belt, to Slaughter throwing the fireball, to Earthquake taking him out) get heat on him in WWF in a way he never would in WCW. 

[Patrick B.]

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned JAPW.  For anyone who was there:  Any thoughts on the Necro/Hooligans vs. Viking War Party match?  All but Necro are Midwest guys and I was wanting to know how they did.

 

On the indy topic, a newer group in Belleville has a LOADED card for a show on Sunday December 28th topped off by A.C.H. vs. Ricochet.  Super geeked for that one.  Also Elgin vs. Uhaa Nation(rematch from the previous show), reDRagon vs. Colony, and Jigsaw vs. Chuck Taylor.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Whilst not an ironman match - the John Cena vs HBK match just after WM23 that went 56 minutes was fucking excellent

[JonnyLaw]

I should go back and watch it at some point to see if my opinion has changed, but watching it live, the Angle/Brock iron man match was torture to get through.  I get the story they went for, and it was a novel and logical one, but as soon as it became apparent that we were going to have to watch Angle sell for the rest of the hour and slowly attempt the comeback, I checked out.