NOV WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[SirSmUgly]

I remember really liking Diesel/Michaels the month afterward, even on re-watch a handful of years ago. That's what I usually think of as the best Diesel/Kevin Nash match ever. I know most of what seemed really hardcore at the time is tame now, and I know Michaels pretty much no-sells that Jackknife through the table because he enters his comeback so soon afterward, but it was still really fun despite its flaws. Plus, Diesel takes Mad Dog Vachon's fake leg from him just to beat HBK with it. That's some pretty awesome heeling. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

A lot of people still say that HHH wasn't a legit main eventer but he was in the main events for most of 2000 and it was one of WWE's most profitable years to date. Ratings were huge. D-X was pretty big also. Everyone had a D-X shirt.

If HHH isn't a legit main eventer then who is? Only Hogan, Rock and Austin? In current WWE only Cena has a case.

[ebbie]

 

3) I hope some asshole starts chanting "A-J PUNK" at CM Punk whenever he does what he does at Chicago arena sporting events.

Buys a ticket and watches the game?

 

 

idk. I saw some GIF of him doing something a baseball game and the camera cuts to a woman clearly going "Who is that?"

 

I'm actually looking forward to seeing WM XII again when I get there in my WWE viewing. I'm about ten months out, but I remember that show as a really weird bridge show between the post-'80s malaise and what would become the Attitude Era. I'm wondering how Goldust/Piper and Taker/Diesel look almost twenty years into the future in particular. Why did you like Taker/Diesel, Ebbie?

 

First off, to hell with you for making me feel old.

 

 

I've always liked that match. It was the first PPV we were able to convince my mom to buy for us.  At the time, I was only 9 years old. You know that feeling of "oh my god! they are my favorites!" you had when you were a kid? It was so cool that my favorites at a match together.

 

Turns out that it was my style of match. The match immediately starts off with them punching the hell out of each other. Nothing fancy, just two big big guys pounding each other with right hands. After the intial flurry, it becomes a case of "athleticism vs stubbornness" as Taker bounced every which way but down as Diesel just wouldn't give up. Taker even resorts to trying to use a bloody chair to win. I don't know how often Taker used a chair up to that point, but in the WWF someone THAT only needed his punching fist to take someone out. Diesel FINALLY gets control because Taker's chair use fails and a good chunk of the match is Diesel keeping Taker down because 'fuck me if I want to deal with that guy again.' Diesel's smile throughout destroying Taker was just mean. Taker does an AWESOME babyface in peril job. The bumping, the selling, THE POP UPS AFTER THE JACKKNIFES!!!

 

For all the good Taker does in the match, I felt Diesel's energy matches it. I remember Nash saying in an interview, Taker just got the news that his wife filed for divorce the day before or the day of WM. Makes me wonder how much better the match would've been if Taker wasn't distracted that day. Such a good match that I want redone move by move sans the finishers.

 

TL;DR, the Sheamus vs Barrett matches remind me of that match.

[Brian Fowler]

Say whatever else you want about Nash, but he left WWF on a role in ring, with the survivor series Bret match, mania with Taker, and iyh with Shawn.

[ebbie]

Please, he was very, very good looking. But one of Nash's best matches imo was the Eric Young match:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpXwZQHBFv0

 

 

Sigh. I love it when the good guy goes "FUCK YOU MOTHERFUCKER AND YOUR MOMMA TOO!!" before dying. Eric Young didn't say that in the match, but he might as should have tbh

[Ziggy]

 

Speaking of Kane, is he the guy with the most longevity in at least a fairly high-profile role in a major company - if we're counting his earlier incarnations as Isaac Yankem and Fake Diesel, it's been nineteen years - with the least number of memorable matches? Like, if someone were putting together a Kane compilation, what would you even put on it? I don't even think he's terrible as a wrestler; he's just really, really, REALLY mediocre. Is his best work as the hot-tag component of a tag team with a good FIP, like Kane/X-Pac (which I remember enjoying as a tag team).

I think Kane's best matches were Survivor Series vs Foley right after his debut, the match where he dropped the IC belt to Albert on Smackdown and the Raw match against Big Show where they decided to chain wrestle for some reason.

 

I like his first blood match at Kotr '98 and the return match on Raw vs Austin.

[Ziggy]

Say whatever else you want about Nash, but he left WWF on a role in ring, with the survivor series Bret match, mania with Taker, and iyh with Shawn.

.I was listening to clips of his Kayfabe Commentaries and a few other shoots on youtube and I was thinking that if I never watch him wrestle ever, Just by listening to him talk psychology you think he was Fit Finlay levels good in the ring.

 

If I was a wrestler coming up I'd value his opinion, seriously

[Matt D]

I love Kane vs Chavo from Backlash. 

[ebbie]

Say whatever else you want about Nash, but he left WWF on a role in ring, with the survivor series Bret match, mania with Taker, and iyh with Shawn.

 

 

I've always wonder what people really expect from Nash. He's 7ft tall. If he did any of that athletic, little guy stuff people seem to think make you a good wrestler, what would be the appeal of a smaller guy doing the same shit? I mean, there's Taker who did flip and stuff, but for the most part, big guys need to be slower and simpler so the littler guy looks more impressive.

 

Now if you were to rant about Nash being as lazy fucker, I wouldn't disagree with that. You try being in WCW and getting paid to do shit. I'd be lazy too tbh.

[SirSmUgly]

I think Nash in WWF was a hard worker, but he was sabotaged by not having anyone that great to work against for most of his reign. I love Sid and I enjoy Mabel in certain situations, but those were not the best guys to run against Nash. Nash's best opponent is actually Bret Hart, who had two very good and very different matches with him at the Rumble of 1995 and Survivor Series of 1995. 

 

It also doesn't help that Shawn pretty much stole his shine in that WM XI match by wrestling like a face trying to survive against a monster heel and even got a visual pinfall on him before losing. As a kid, that match just made me want to see HBK be champ - just what Michaels was shooting for at cross-purposes to the point of the match, actually.

 

People shit on Nash for being the worst drawing WWF Champ ever, but I think that he was victimized by circumstance, HBK undermining him, and utterly shitty booking. 

[Matt D]

The thing with Nash is that he was done before he started. He got hurt playing basketball and he only went into wrestling because he couldn't go anymore. He also started when he was pretty old. I think there were other guys who were physically done and were better than him, but most of them got there through wrestling and honing their craft over years and knew ways to be great despite that, to wrestle smart and use their physical attributes when they no longer had physical abilities. I kind of get the feeling that Nash is at that point now, but he's so broken down that he couldn't make it work anyway, but there's just no way he could have been there five years into his career when he was on top.

[ebbie]

I agree with all that, but Nash was such a natural at what he did. Imagine if he wasn't lazy and knees you'd brag about.

[cool arrow]

A younger, less-fragile Nash wrestling would've been a thing to behold.

[ebbie]

So glad we got away with talking about Nash and not he who shall not be named for a page...

 

 

Anywho, watching Breakdown 98 on the Network. It seemed like Owen was done. Like mentally done. Anyone else notice that?

[Big Fresh]

1. 'Taker vs. Shawn - WM25

2. 'Taker vs. Punk - WM29

3. 'Taker vs. HHH - WM28

4. 'Taker vs. HHH - WM27

5. 'Taker vs. Shawn - WM26

And Punk vs. Brock was the best match of the year.

[ebbie]

There's no way you could convince me that Taker vs HHH at WM 17 wasn't the best WM match between the two. If nothing else, it wasn't two old guys trading finishers and kicking out and laying around like they took a Benadryl for 30 goddamn minutes.

[Casey]

That's the first thing ebbie has ever said that I agree with. WHAT'S HAPPENING.

[Brian Fowler]

Let me try and rank the streak off the top of my head.

21. Gonzalez, IX

20. Sid, 13

19. Bundy, XI

18. Snuka, VII

17. Show and Train, XIX

16. Roberts, VIII

15. Kane, XX

14. Bossman, XV

13. HHH, 28

12. Orton, 21

11. HBK, 26

10. Henry, 21

09. Kane, XIV

08. Diesel XII

07. Flair X-8

06. HHH, X7

05. Batista, 21

04. HBK, 25

03. Punk, 29

02. Edge, XIV

01. HHH, 27

[JohnnyJ]

What cracks me up about Nash is that if Vince hadn't come calling, he would've had Ron Reis' career.

[Casey]

Let me try and rank the streak off the top of my head.

 

21.  Gonzalez, IX

20.  Sid, 13

19.  Bundy, XI

18.  Snuka, VII

17. Show and Train, XIX

16.  Roberts, VIII

15.  Kane, XX

14.  Bossman, XV

13.  HHH, 28

12.  Orton, 21

11.  HBK, 26

10.  Henry, 21

09.  Kane, XIV

08.  Diesel XII

07.  Flair X-8

06.  HHH, X7

05.  Batista, 21

04.  HBK, 25

03.  Punk, 29

02.  Edge, XIV

01.  HHH, 28

While I don't agree with that, like, at all... I'm glad you have the Kane match from XIV in your Top 10. That's an underrated match, IMO. Maybe one of my top 5.

[Brian Fowler]

When I revisited the streak a few years ago, the first Kane match surprised me the most.

[Ziggy]

[quote name="Smelly McUgly" post="276613" timestamp="1414978494"

 

People shit on Nash for being the worst drawing WWF Champ ever, but I think that he was victimized by circumstance,and utterly shitty booking.

You could say the same for Bret for his first 3 reigns even though the reign before WM XII was OK it was brief and the focus was too much on Shawn after the concussion angle he was an afterthought.

[SirSmUgly]

I really love that Henry match. I was really shocked by how good it was when I saw it again. I didn't think much of it the first time I saw it. I think that's my favorite 'Taker WM match. My top five would probably be:

 

1. vs. Henry, casket match, WM 22

2. vs. HHH, WM X-7

3. vs. Flair, WM X-8

4. vs. Batista, WM 23

5. vs. Roberts, VIII (yeah, I know, but I love it as an extended squash meant to get 'Taker over as a face force)

 

I need to watch the Diesel match again, though, as it seems like it might be right down my alley on re-watch and would fit into my top five.

[ebbie]

 

People shit on Nash for being the worst drawing WWF Champ ever, but I think that he was victimized by circumstance,and utterly shitty booking.

You could say the same for Bret for his first 3 reigns even though the reign before WM XII was OK it was brief and the focus was too much on Shawn after the concussion angle he was an afterthought.

 

 

If there is one guy that kills the argument of pushing a guy just because he can put on "great" matches, it's Bret Hart. Not charismatic; couldn't cut a promo without wearing his glasses, let alone cut a good promo; and had the acting range of a Bella twin. Minus the great tits of Nikki of course.

[Matt D]

Big in Germany.