Zakk_Sabbath Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Oh, there are no worries. I do disagree that I'm too harsh. I am generally pretty positive, though there are some things that I just don't like and will probably never be positive about. It never hurts to hash things out, though. It's about talking about wrestling more than making a difference. at least for me. I also think that I probably am not taking this position in 2002; I do think there is something deficient about WWE's booking patterns over the last decade that has me thinking this way. One thing I wonder about often, and I think 2002 is about the starting point, what exactly caused this shift in WWE's philosophy? If you put a gun to my head and made me take some guesses, I would say: WCW and ECW going under, Austin's walk out, Rock leaving, and Brock leaving. I also think that a jumping off point would be Triple H and Evolution's big run on top of Raw. That was one of the first times where I felt like something was being truly force-fed to me regardless of what did or didn't make sense or what the overall audience reactions were. But, to play Devil's Advocate, maybe that's just what a heel looks like in the 21st century, and we're just catching up to it now. I really can't say for sure. I'm struggling to come up with names as far as who were amongst the first to be "tested" with a de-push. RVD in 2002/2003? Christian 2005? Sure, Mark Henry and Big Show had gone down to OVW in 2000 or so, but I think a lot of that was conditioning issues. What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick B. Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I think the thing that finally broke my spirit for good was something out of WWE's control: Bryan's neck injury. In a meta sense, it proved the heels right that Bryan couldn't hold up as a main-event player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick B. Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Ryback tweeted that he's taking a break:"Going away for a while to get some stuff fixed. Have not been myself for quite some time." Big Guy...out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenbat Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 What a missed opportunity. Should've never put him in that cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenbat Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Off topic but why isn't there an action movie with The Rock and Austin? Something along the lines of Miami DEA agent had to go to Texas and team up with a ranger to take down a cartel? Partners who don't get along and all that.seems to write itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Austin's been asked that before. He'd be game, of course, but the truth is Rock's far too big a star for that sort of direct to DVD action flick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenbat Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Pfft, dude acts like Pain and Gain was so classy or something. Just cast a big name as the villain, I want my movie Goddamnit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dre013 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Ryback tweeted that he's taking a break: "Going away for a while to get some stuff fixed. Have not been myself for quite some time." Big Guy...out. And then he deleted all of his tweets and folks he was following...certainly an interesting character. Goes to something Austin says, that these guys are so heavily scripted their personalities never come out. And (my opinion), it's being written by failed tv writers. Not a recipe for getting anyone over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehabilitated Rick Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I know Austin said when he met Reigns at the Summerslam 2k conference Reigns also shown personality, was eloquent and articulate yet these dumbass writers keep scripting him so tightly he comes across artificial. Fuck these writers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Nothing about the booking of Wyatt suggestions they're de-pushing him. You were saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I'm struggling to come up with names as far as who were amongst the first to be "tested" with a de-push. RVD in 2002/2003? Christian 2005? Sure, Mark Henry and Big Show had gone down to OVW in 2000 or so, but I think a lot of that was conditioning issues. What do you guys think? Depends. Jericho going from Undisputed Champion in the main event of WrestleMania to missing Backlash to losing to a rookie at Vengeance and tapping to an elderly Ric Flair at SummerSlam seems pretty glaring. Booker coming in strong with a SummerSlam main event against Rock and then falling off the face of the earth after the Alliance is also worth consideration. Do we consider people who never passed the "test?" Surely DDP's sharp fall after his angle with Taker enters into the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I'm struggling to come up with names as far as who were amongst the first to be "tested" with a de-push. RVD in 2002/2003? Christian 2005? Sure, Mark Henry and Big Show had gone down to OVW in 2000 or so, but I think a lot of that was conditioning issues. What do you guys think? It depends what you mean by "de-push." The Rock and Kurt Angle spent quite a bit of time slumming it the midcard after significant title wins, but they won most of their midcard feuds which probably helped them when they were quickly shoved back up the card. If you're talking about guys doing a lot of jobs, it's probably the bigger names of the Alliance. Booker T really stands out since he was pushed as WCW's top guy by virtue of having the belt. He quickly and deciscively lost that to The Rock and spent rest of the invasion jobbing, as many non-defector Alliance-originals did. I honestly can't remember the first feud Booker won in WWE. Did he slip something in February of 02? I'm drawing a blank between getting beat up in the supermarket and losing to Edge in the shampoo feud. I remember he did end up winning a program with Show by the summer of 02 at the latest. Edit: It was almost certainly the Big Show feud. I just remembered post-Mania he joined up with NWO 02, and got kicked out by Michaels which is what turned him face. Unrelated, but was that NWO 02 stable weird or what? Didn't it go from Hogan/Hall/Nash to Michaels/Flair/Waltman/Booker/Show or something like that? What was up with that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Hogan turned face, Nash got hurt, Scott Hall was Scott Hall. I imagine they figured the only way to keep the gravy train rolling was by throwing random people in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libs Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I always wondered where they were going to go with the hobble gobble version when Nash got hurt, as they didn't seem to have any direction at all for them. Were they going to run Triple H/Nash that summer/fall? Re-live the glory of Nash/Big Show as part of a split arc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Fresh Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Flair was never part of the nWo though, I don't think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 My point was (poorly made) that we haven't seen any successes purely built through the system in a long time. Probably an indicator that a) the regional system is a better option that wwe development and that the death of it is a bigger loss than they expected and B) triple h isn't more than a checkbook at this point. It's funny, a few months ago I was reading a transcript of a Bill Watts interview he did not long after he left WCW in the early 90's. He specifically mentioned how when McMahon was expanding in the 80's, he suggested to Vince to not go out of his way to kill the territories and actually let them live as they'd be the best possible feeder system but Vince didn't care/listen. granted, economically, having a WWF on top with wide exposure can still sink territories without direct hostile action. See: USWA, 1990s, which was a WWF feeder by the end and still didn't draw and went under due to various financial clusterfucks. The events since the 1980s don't exactly spell out a very bright future for regionalized promotions even without the WWF. Lots of regionalized entities all over the place wound up merging into bigger entities or going under. In Media, Banking, Drug Stores, Oil Companies, etc. Unless the Bill Watts hope was that there'd be minor league feeder systems, which would either require people able to maintain the system, or subsidies for them to keep it going. Minor League Baseball went from boom to reorganization within 15 years (from post WW2 to the 1960s) and really only got stable attendance post-Bull Durham. And that's a baseball entity. As opposed to trying to manage a wrestling federation which has more hassles in some states than others and a significant financial requirement needed to hold stable shows. It's a nice thought to think of a territorial feeder system. Heck, the WWE had like 2 or 3 such things around 2001 with the WCW guys in their system (Heartland, OVW, and idk if they still had ties to Memphis then). But they had problems getting a good developmental fed (NXT in Orlando is their 3rd or 4th stop for this, recently, IIRC.. from Deep South to FCW in Tampa to NXT in Orlando). If a global entity has problems doing this, what really makes you think an assorted group of locals could do it in some part of the country? Now, the fun part of development comes when the people in one end of the chute send people up to the side where a bunch of guys who couldn't get a job writing a sitcom have to handle their stuff. As for the whole "testing with a de-push" thing.. it seems like entire segments of Big Show's 1999 were essentially elaborate tests of shitty booking and depushing. But i'd imagine it escalated post-2001, because if they have no where to go and fans can't watch something else, then the talent can be fucked around with for awhile to test their staying power or something 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Wasn't it mainly a reaction to Brock leaving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red is Dead Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I'd like to see rollins cash in on NOC, make it 2v1 and just help destroy cena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bustronaut Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 So it's gonna be Lesnar destroys Cena -> Cena barely ekes out a victory -> Rollins cashes in -> Rollins/Ambrose HIAC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red is Dead Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Cena gets to the point where lesnar submits. Rollins cashes in, helps beatdown cena. Cena lesnar HIAC. Cena has a serious promo or three about being there and doing that. Launches his new shirt. Death to cena. blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuroresuFan Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I know Austin said when he met Reigns at the Summerslam 2k conference Reigns also shown personality, was eloquent and articulate yet these dumbass writers keep scripting him so tightly he comes across artificial. Fuck these writers. Reminds me of the interview Wade Keller did with Luther Reigns for PWI and how it was clear that he was much more interesting when he wasn't scripted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningBeard Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I remember that guy cutting a money promo when they let him talk as opposed to just being Kirk Angel's silent muscle. Then... nothing. Did he go to Japan or has he just disappeared? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I'm struggling to come up with names as far as who were amongst the first to be "tested" with a de-push. RVD in 2002/2003? Christian 2005? Sure, Mark Henry and Big Show had gone down to OVW in 2000 or so, but I think a lot of that was conditioning issues. What do you guys think? Interesting word choice because the first time I recall this happening was when Test fell off the face of the earth in late 99/early 2000 after the Steph turn. He was getting huge reactions and had a built-in feud with HHH and was made to play second banana to Vince of all people instead. Nothing about the booking of Wyatt suggestions they're de-pushing him. You were saying? A main event loss on Raw to the top star in the company (who needs to be booked strong to look like a credible challenger to Brock) isn't a de-push. What was it you were saying about Cesaro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Wilson Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Sheets are reporting that Rob Van Dam will be finished this week with his current contract. I am one of the few that likes Van Dam but I don't see any benefit to him having any more short runs like this. He has good matches from time to time but he is 43, not interested in working a full time schedule, and puts on rather predictable matches. He had a great career but maybe it is time for him to hang up his boots or just do big Indy shows when he gets the itch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Ape Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I remember that guy cutting a money promo when they let him talk as opposed to just being Kirk Angel's silent muscle. Then... nothing. Did he go to Japan or has he just disappeared? He hung up the boots not long after WWE. Now he rests his hopes and dreams of stardom on the shoulders of his brother Roman. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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