AUGUST WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Matt D]

We've talked about this a little bit before, but I just can't do it to a kid. Wrestling is full of joy and excitement, but it's also full of a lot of tragedy. Almost every key wrestling memory I have as a kid, whether it be rooting for the Texas Tornado to beat Mr. Perfect, or being the biggest Air Pillman fan in the world or watching Sting battle Cactus Jack in a falls count anywhere match or getting to meet Bret in the bowels of the Boston Garden. All of that stuff is so broken now. Likewise when I was a teenager, or in my early 20s with Benoit and Eddy. My heroes growing up are dead or can't walk or ended up to be monsters. And maybe that's true with any form of entertainment or sport or whatever, but it's always more so with wrestling. If a kid comes to it, great, I'd support it and show them the good stuff, but I'm not forcing them into it. 

 

It's a personal call and I'm okay with anyone who chooses otherwise but i've got plenty of other things I'm interested in that I can share with a kid. 

[Super Ape]

Same. I don't feel good about showing wrestling to my daughter; if it's not risqué garbage (and in the case of the women's wrestling out there today, a piss-poor attempt at making it NOT look like just upper-scale apartment-wrestling tapes from Apter mags), it's the fact that almost every single wrestler I was ever a fan of is either dead, physically a shambles, or got smart enough to get the fuck out and move on to better things.

Also, I wouldn't want my daughter to see the more misogynistic angles the 'E has done (Piggy James, Lita's slut-shaming, I could go on).

[Cristobal]

So....that was basically my point about Swagger but you poo-poo'd the notion.  Interesting...

If you want to put him on the list, go ahead, but Swagger's biggest obstacle has been Swagger. The most memorable thing about Swagger's world title reign were things he was given, (the Eagle, the trophies.)

Exactly. Jack Swagger has been getting some absurdly loud pops recently. You can say a good chunk of that is due to Rusev. But it can't be all of it because other wrestlers who stepped up to Rusev werent getting pops like that.

Swagger was in a unique position to take advantage of an angle with an anti-American heel because he's been calling himself a "Real American" for the past year and a half, and by the way he's had Dutch Mantel doing his talking for him.

[Greggulator]

Swagger getting patriotic pops was great and it served its purpose: Get Rusev over more. They've done the Rusev/Lana stuff pretty much perfectly. He started off by tormenting the lower-card babyfaces. He then stepped up a class against a former World Champion -- but not a real esteemed one -- in Swagger. Now it's Mark Henry, who kayfabe is a total monster and is the first dude way bigger than Rusev he has to step against.

That's the perfect way to build a foreign conqueror/monster-ish dude, accompanied to the ring with one of the best obnoxious heel managers to come down the pike in a long time.

People complain about how the company doesn't push anyone strong and/or anyone new or young. Well, guess what? Rusev's right there.

Do they pull the trigger with Rusev? That remains to be seen. But if he ends up losing his ultimate goal against a World Champion Cena -- I'm completely fine with that. The All-American Iconic Hero against a foreign invader heel is a time honored tradition.

[cwoy2j]

All of you with kids are such maroons. You do realize that part of the joy of parenting is imposing your views on your kids, right? "Well, doesn't look like Dora is on right now, let's see if Demolition can overcome the odds in this match against Powers of Pain AND Mr Fuji!"

Then, you get them to wager on the outcomes of old matches, in exchange for chores. "Wow, can't believe Warrior beat Hogan, I thought he was unbeatable too! Now go mow the lawn!" You're looking at it all wrong.

 

This. I show my stepkids wrestling all the time. I stay away from anything that's too inappropriate but I'll show them old stuff like Diesel vs. Bret at Survivor Series. They love watching old stuff as long as I give them a quick rundown on why Guy/Girl A is fighting Guy/Girl B and what the stakes are or why the match has significance. They also like seeing some of the current guys in their previous incarnations. Like they wouldn't believe me when I told them that yes, John Cena was a goofy white rapper and has indeed tapped out before. So of course we watch Kurt Angle make him tap like a bitch at No Mercy 2003.

[Greggulator]

I can't really argue if people say they hate the problem and/or Vince. I'm the positive guy (still a bad thing!) but whatever. I enjoy the product for the most part. The only thing I wish they did was have Bray do more twisted stuff and maybe heated up the tag ranks a bit more. I also love Cesaro and would love to see him do a bit more but they will sooner or later and it will be great. But they don't do anything else that's really egregious. The product has been super fun for a really lengthy stretch of time.

I'm not getting the Roman Reigns backlash. The guy is fine. He's had a major role in probably half of the best 100 TV/PPV matches of the past year -- at least. He was great in the Royal Rumble and the Survivor Series. His singles matches could be better but I think he has a track record that should give us faith. His match against Orton was good -- it wasn't great, but it was far from the drizzles. His push hasn't come at the expense of Dean or Rollins at all.

[Matt D]

I think it's very telling that whenever they do something good or right, I think most of us are surprised.Happily surprised, but surprised. 

 

Does that say something about us? Maybe, but I do think we've been conditioned over the years to have that expectation. I honestly feel like it's a generally valid expectation to have. 

[Super Ape]

It's part of why I don't want to pass wrestling fandom down the line.

[Technico Support]

Swagger got pops because WWE has a lowest common denominator fanbase who didn't understand that the old right-wing white guy and his crew, who were against any and all foreigners, were supposed to be heels.   Gimmicks based on nuance don;t really work, ya know?

[offspring515]

Uhhh...except they dropped most of the xenophobia and replaced it with general "rah rah hard workin' USA" and programmed him against a heel specifically to get face pops. It wasn't an attempt to do a nuanced angle.

Rereading your post I'm thinking you meant the "we the people" chants while he was a heel. I chalk that up to the audience liking to chant along, not to the audience being too stupid to realize they were heels.

[Jerry Hattrick]

All of you with kids are such maroons. You do realize that part of the joy of parenting is imposing your views on your kids, right? "Well, doesn't look like Dora is on right now, let's see if Demolition can overcome the odds in this match against Powers of Pain AND Mr Fuji!"

Then, you get them to wager on the outcomes of old matches, in exchange for chores. "Wow, can't believe Warrior beat Hogan, I thought he was unbeatable too! Now go mow the lawn!" You're looking at it all wrong.

 

God, I wish I was able to have kids, just to do that. Excellent work, Doc. 

[Technico Support]

They were getting pops and singalongs long before the Rusev angle, though.

 

In retrospect, it's probably a good idea to stay away from politically-based angles when it's likely to piss off half your fanbase.  Stick to easy, clear black and white angles designed for kids. 

 

The Zeb/Swagger angle, with them supposed to be heels, is even more ponderous considering Vince's political leanings.

[The Nature Boy]

Maybe Vince hates the Tea Party?

 

He wouldn't be the only Republican to feel that way.

[Jerry Hattrick]

I seen what Matt D. and Super Ape posted about their kids and wrestling, and they make very valid points. This may be a way to educate the negative aspects, angles, and tragedies, because this is real world stuff that should not be tolerated. People are assholes, and as such, children should have tools to be able understand and deal with (re:make changes) such things as the grow up. This is absolutely no way of me trying to tell how to raise kids, it's just a suggestive thought that entered my head. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

[Super Ape]

I seen what Matt D. and Super Ape posted about their kids and wrestling, and they make very valid points. This may be a way to educate the negative aspects, angles, and tragedies, because this is real world stuff that should not be tolerated. People are assholes, and as such, children should have tools to be able understand and deal with (re:make changes) such things as the grow up. This is absolutely no way of me trying to tell how to raise kids, it's just a suggestive thought that entered my head. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

I see where you're coming from, and I don't entirely disagree, but it's hard to educate a small child on matters like that and why they're wrong, when making fun of a woman wrestler's weight is abetted by over 10,000 people chanting in unison, as if that's the "right" thing to do. Same thing with Foley getting brained by a chair as nauseum.

[MORELOCK]

You have it completely backward. WWE has been in the toilet because they have failed to get people over, or failed to capitalize when people were. Dust Brothers are over? Have 'em wrestle Rybaxel for two months. Cesaro getting over as a face? Force him to turn more heel, then just job him out. Shield the biggest non-Bryan/Cena thing in the company? Break 'em up, push the one least able to sustain a singles run cuz he's got nice hair, and send the one who was getting super-over to do a movie.

The exception was Daniel Bryan, who then got hurt.

 

 

But he isn't the only exception. They have gotten a number of people over - they just aren't the people you would like them to utilize. Rusev, Swagger, Brie, Miz, and the Usos are all being made to look strong or are getting better reactions than they were at the beginning of the year, but they aren't DVDVR darlings so it isn't considered "good booking." Brock is in the middle of the biggest heel push in the history of the company and the only bad thing anyone has had to say about it is "He will probably lose to Cena at NOC so I will preemptively shit on it."

 

I don't see how anyone can have a problem with the way the former Shield members are being booked. They've all come off like huge stars. The idea that Ambrose is somehow not being pushed is ludicrous. 

[Cristobal]

Jesus. So many straw men in that post this thread is now a fire hazard.

[Patrick B.]

So Night Of Champions looks like:

Lesnar-Cena

Ziggler-Miz
Sheamus-Cesaro
Usos-Dust Bros.(maybe make it a tag turmoil or something with Rybaxel, Slater Gators, etc.)
Paige-AJ(maybe throw in Natalya with her recent non-title wins over Paige...or if you really want to get masochistic, throw in Eva Marie since she holds two non-title wins over AJ)

 

Other than the championship matches...Reigns-Orton again?  Bella-Bella?

[Matt D]

Henry vs Rusev too. 

 

I'd have them do Reigns/Someone vs HHH/Orton but I'm not sure who that someone is. 

 

Ambrose vs Rollins has to be happening too, no? 

[Patrick B.]

Probably depends on when Dean's movie is done.

[Matt D]

They've got to do something with Rollins.

 

HHH/Rollins/Orton vs Reigns/?/? could be fun. Batista + Show? I don't know. If they want to heat the card up they probably think they should get HHH on it, no?

[SirSmUgly]

 

 

Self-congratulatory much? Anyone that thinks they're more responsible for the success of WM than the creative team is, for lack of a better term, a mark.

 

While there is room for improvement and always will be, this "stuffing instead of potatoes is in the toilet just because Bryan is injured and Punk is gone and the sky is falling" stuff is completely out of control.

 

 

Everyone is a mark, so I'm not insulted by that term. 

 

However, if you think that the company's hand regarding Bryan was not forced by the crowd, you would have to be incredibly optimistic about the company's record with hot acts over the past ten years to take that position. If you can't understand why people aren't incredibly optimistic about the company's record with hot acts over the past ten years, you are either somewhat clueless or you just really like to put your faith in the company, evidence to the contrary be damned. 

 

 

The only reason we got the WM that we got in the first place is that the fans essentially hijacked every show on the road to WM until the company was forced to do what the fans wanted, so I guess the fans actually did know better than the company. 

 

Except for Bryan breaking his neck a month in and throwing the booking into a tail spin it still has not recovered from. 

 

 

If the bookers are unable to deal with an injury, that's not Bryan's fault. I love your posts, Vic, but you pushed this asinine "BRYAN GOT HURT SO HIS PUSH WAS A MISTAKE" line a few weeks ago, and it still doesn't wash. If Bryan gets hurt, but Bray Wyatt and Cesaro are right there and the crowd is ready to get behind them, you don't blame Bryan when the company has John Cena beat the tar out of Bray Wyatt in a feud and books Cesaro 50/50 with a bunch of other midcarders. You blame the company. Steve Austin got his neck destroyed, but they kept him in the mix and hot, so they've done it before...unfortunately, that was seventeen years ago, i.e. before Vince McMahon totally lost his touch. 

[Craig H]

Ignoring putting the title on DB also ignores the disaster that the Wrestlemania main event would have been if it was Batista vs Orton. Fans would have shit on that worse than they shit on Lesnar vs Goldberg.

[The Nature Boy]

To be fair, I think WWE is trying to keep Daniel in the mix by using Brie as his proxy. There's only so much you can do when the man is out injured. Bryan's gimmick kind of requires him to wrestle (and be able to raise his arm) so their hands are tied.

 

By the way, a better example for Austin circa 1997 would be Bad News Barrett. Austin injures his neck and is still on RAW every week because his gimmick could get over without him wrestling. Barrett injures his arm and is off TV despite the fact that his gimmick really requires NO WRESTLING AT ALL. You could easily have Barrett on RAW every week even if it's by pre-tape. WWE is just content to let guys fall of the radar.

[The Nature Boy]

Double post so here's a gif of BNB: