Just Dave Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 On what planet are Ryder's matches "not good?" He's not sent out there to have good matches. He's sent out there to look like an idiot and get someone else over. I don't blame those of you who didn't like his gimmick or internet show; it's not for everybody. But in an era where so much about this company is stagnant, Ryder could've been used to bring in new fans and draw casual fans in closer. It was almost as though they weren't just satisfied to punish Ryder, it's like they wanted to push anyone who wanted anything good for Ryder. Having said that, they usually come around on guys. If he can stay hired long enough, I'm sure they'll give him something to do... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonL21 Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Can anyone really go to Vince with ideas? Especially now, with Hunter having a lot of control now. I honestly can't see Heath Slater going to Vince with an idea and actually getting 5 minutes with him. Maybe I'm wrong, but I only believe only a handful have anytime access to Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spontaneous Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I dunno know about "lots of guys," but Kane's storylines tend to be god-awful.Kane is such a company guy though, he never says no to anything judging by his career. For every Team Hell No there is Katie Vick, Fake Kane, Embrace the Hate, Tori, Comatose Undertaker, RAPING Lita, etc. the stupidest, most absurd stuff Vince conjures up he never rejects. He is a big guy too and you never hear about him causing any trouble. Mystifying.For all those who say a better wrestler would have made he Ryder stuff work, picture anyone else doing what they has him do. We talk about getting buried, look at what they did to him. He has been reduced to occasionally jobbing on Superstars. His ceiling is Miz, yet Miz main evented Wrestlemania, won a MITB, and had a role in their major 2011 angle. How he continues to stick around is mind boggling other than he is another company guy, they know he'll do all the talk shows and direct to DVD movies they ask of him. If only Zack Ryder had been in The Marine 3. Maybe he can snag a role in Leprechaun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Name them. Kane has had almost nothing but awful writing for his character. Jericho picked up Stephanie's dog's poop. Bryan was constantly jobbed out and called a nerd. Mark Henry fucked Mae Young and fathered a fake hand. Big Show cried a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scraylo187 Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Eddie spent most of his time in love with Chyna for a while there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyJ Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Name them.Kane has had almost nothing but awful writing for his character. Jericho picked up Stephanie's dog's poop. Bryan was constantly jobbed out and called a nerd. Mark Henry fucked Mae Young and fathered a fake hand. Big Show cried a lot. All admittedly terrible but who else had a 4-6 push then spent the next 3 years jobbing and made it work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Name them.Kane has had almost nothing but awful writing for his character. Jericho picked up Stephanie's dog's poop. Bryan was constantly jobbed out and called a nerd. Mark Henry fucked Mae Young and fathered a fake hand. Big Show cried a lot. All admittedly terrible but who else had a 4-6 push then spent the next 3 years jobbing and made it work? Mark Henry had a push for a second before being relegated to Sexual Chocolate and lots of jobs, and he came back, but no one is saying that Ryder needs to be as good as Mark Henry, so this point about other wrestlers is moot. The point is that Ryder also did something lots of wrestlers never do regardless of how good or bad their booking is, which is to actually get over to some degree, and that deserved better than what he got. Not something amazing, but something better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 But why do you think they started jobbing him out again? Do you really think Vince was so butthurt that Zach didn't knock on his office door for a chat that he decided to seek vengeance on him and thousands of fans by orchestrating a long-term conspiracy to bury him? Or did they give him more screen time to see what he was capable of doing and decide that he was thoroughly mediocre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 But why do you think they started jobbing him out again? Do you really think Vince was so butthurt that Zach didn't knock on his office door for a chat that he decided to seek vengeance on him and thousands of fans by orchestrating a long-term conspiracy to bury him? Or did they give him more screen time to see what he was capable of doing and decide that he was thoroughly mediocre? They gave Daniel Bryan a look and decided that he wasn't worth the WM main event at one point regardless of what the fans wanted, or so the story seems to be. I don't know why we trust a promoter's personal evaluation over guys getting over with the fans organically. Ryder on some level at least had that going for him. Vince and HHH always say that it's the fans who decided whom gets over, after all. By the way, "defending Zach Ryder and arguing that he should not have been de-pushed in the way that he was" is not something I was expecting to do when I woke up today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 But why do you think they started jobbing him out again? Do you really think Vince was so butthurt that Zach didn't knock on his office door for a chat that he decided to seek vengeance on him and thousands of fans by orchestrating a long-term conspiracy to bury him? Or did they give him more screen time to see what he was capable of doing and decide that he was thoroughly mediocre? Butthurt/Vengeance is a pretty hyperbolic characterization though. I'm thinking more like Vince just doesn't care to see the upside in someone and protect their storyline unless they've gotten the idea over to him clearly and in a way that he feels like he's invested in it. I don't think for a second that Vince was outraged that Ryder tried to get over on the internet. He just didn't care and so when there was a spot to dump someone for better or worse, he dumped Ryder in it. It's Ryder and only Ryder who has any investment in fixing that...so that's part of his job. Part of "getting yourself over" is getting over with Vince, both on a personal level, and making him see (through his Vince colored glasses) how awesome the gimmick is. Blaming Vince for not seeing it on his own doesn't do anything. He's missed a ton of opportunities that way, but that's not something that is fixable. In this world, Vince just is. You can work with him (or work him) but you can't just expect him to change or see how awesome you are from a distance. You have to cultivate him for him to be protective of your story. That's just as much part of being in the business (at least in WWE-land) as learning to work a crowd or call a match. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 On one hand, I see where WWE could make more money with Zack then they did but on the other, I have no interest in seeing them do so because I don't like him. Did I get the best result for me? I think I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 My understanding is that if you go and talk to Vince (and anyone can),a range of things may happen. It might actually work. More likely, though, you'll end up a bobblehead, nodding along to whatever he tells you before you get sent out. Worst case? He remembers you exist when he didn't before. This can lead to a comedy humiliation or even getting let go (see: Mike Shaw). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I'm kind of curious what type of push "the locker room" expected for Ryder. I think most people would agree they could do more with him than they are now (or have been for the last 2+ years), but realistically, the guy's ceiling is face Miz. If his ceiling is face Miz, does that mean he can main event Wrestlemania? No, only heel Miz main evented Mania. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick B. Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Plenty of people who "weren't good in the ring" have been pushed to the moon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spontaneous Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 How much does Vince really have to do with your career though? Remember Jimmy Yang, how Vince had no clue he wasn't employed still? Or the proverbial classic "who hired Raven?!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeball Wizard Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 My understanding is that if you go and talk to Vince (and anyone can),a range of things may happen. It might actually work. More likely, though, you'll end up a bobblehead, nodding along to whatever he tells you before you get sent out. Worst case? He remembers you exist when he didn't before. This can lead to a comedy humiliation or even getting let go (see: Mike Shaw). What's the story with Mike Shaw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bustronaut Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 He called someone up (Patterson?) and asked how he could get a bigger push. They said "Talk to Vince!" So Mike did and was fired the next week because Vince forgot he was still around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincey Greene Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I was more or less out of watching WWE around the time of The Man Who Doesn't Exist and his unfortunate end, up until the Network dropped. And I've been watching random PPV's lately during that vast timeframe and tonight, I'm watching Payback 2013. I'm not commenting on the entire show, because ehhh. But the Ziggler/Del Rio match, knowing where they are now, is super interesting. Here you have two guys, barely a year out, who are both JTTS status more or less and at this show, during this match, they managed to pull off a pretty damn well done double switch. I have no earthly idea - as someone who's not terribly invested in the current product - how neither of these guys are currently pushed. Particularly ADR. He's basically a perfect WWE wrestler. Great offense, great seller, tremendous facials. What am I missing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafkonia Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I have no earthly idea - as someone who's not terribly invested in the current product - how neither of these guys are currently pushed. Particularly ADR. He's basically a perfect WWE wrestler. Great offense, great seller, tremendous facials. What am I missing here? He's boring. So, so boring. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nofuture Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I have no earthly idea - as someone who's not terribly invested in the current product - how neither of these guys are currently pushed. Particularly ADR. He's basically a perfect WWE wrestler. Great offense, great seller, tremendous facials. What am I missing here? Turning him into a pandering, disingenuous face killed his heat, then when he turned back heel taking away part of the formula that helped get him over (Ricardo Rodriguez). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeball Wizard Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 He called someone up (Patterson?) and asked how he could get a bigger push. They said "Talk to Vince!" So Mike did and was fired the next week because Vince forgot he was still around. I heard that Shaw got on Shawn Michaels' bad side after a sarcastic comment about Shawn and Razor phoning it in one night, and that led to him getting canned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool arrow Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I have no earthly idea - as someone who's not terribly invested in the current product - how neither of these guys are currently pushed. Particularly ADR. He's basically a perfect WWE wrestler. Great offense, great seller, tremendous facials. What am I missing here? Turning him into a pandering, disingenuous face killed his heat, then when he turned back heel taking away part of the formula that helped get him over (Ricardo Rodriguez). To a much lesser extent, I think taking the car away hurt him too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 He called someone up (Patterson?) and asked how he could get a bigger push. They said "Talk to Vince!" So Mike did and was fired the next week because Vince forgot he was still around. I heard that Shaw got on Shawn Michaels' bad side after a sarcastic comment about Shawn and Razor phoning it in one night, and that led to him getting canned. The other story is so pathetic that it almost has to be true. Also, apparently Bret told a similar story about Zhukov at one point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petey Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I have no earthly idea - as someone who's not terribly invested in the current product - how neither of these guys are currently pushed. Particularly ADR. He's basically a perfect WWE wrestler. Great offense, great seller, tremendous facials. What am I missing here? Turning him into a pandering, disingenuous face killed his heat, then when he turned back heel taking away part of the formula that helped get him over (Ricardo Rodriguez). To a much lesser extent, I think taking the car away hurt him too. All of this. I was out of the loop with WWE for a lot of 06-11 but when I started watching more, I thought ADR was a real good heel. His babyface character was horrendous and really did kill his heat. At this point, he's largely worthless in any role other than as a jobber. That might sound strong but he's heatless. There is no reason to see him in any type of featured match. It's sorta like 2002-2003 Val Venis. He got over as a babyface, then turned heel and it largely made him heatless. When he went back to the character that got him over, his heat was still nonexistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Why was ADR over? This: When he stopped winking, it was all over. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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