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DVDVRMM: THE FINALS~! BRYAN vs. CESARO


DANIEL BRYAN vs. CESARO  

169 members have voted

  1. 1. WHOSE CUISINE REIGNS SUPREME?



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There is no purpose to March Madness except for the Madness.  You of all people should know this, Matt.

 

 

Sure, in round one. We're in the finals now. It's one thing to spite vote against Punk. At least, that has a purpose. There's no reason to spite vote against Bryan OR Cesaro. 

 

Someone should give me something more than "GEE BRYAN'S REALLY OVER AND HAD A GREAT YEAR! THIS IS LIKE WRESTLEMANIA 20 ALL OVER AGAIN! THEY'RE DOING WHAT WE WANT FINALLY! YES! YES! YES!" 

 

That's what I'm seeing here.

 

I like Bryan. I've yet to see anyone give me something other than a PWI 500 explanation, a "main event feel" (which I think Cesaro has done well with anyway) or maybe a "he's more over" explanation for why he had a better year than Cesaro. And it's okay if you guys go with that, (even "He won the WWE championship twice!," Yeti), because this is subjective, but those aren't metrics which matter a whole lot to me, which is why this is frustrating. 

 

People are saying "Cesaro did this, that and that better" using specifics. No one really objects to it. And no one raises a counter point. 

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Someone cross post my Cesaro pitch from the other thread. Preferably someone with less heel heat than Matt.

Here you go Dylan: 

COPY & PASTE ERROR: INSUFFICIENT CLIPBOARD SPACE

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Both guys have had great years. This is a super great time for the WWE in-ring. But Dylan's post has pretty much sold me on Cesaro being the man these past 12 months. Although unlike Dylan I've always been on the Cesaro bandwagon, with his time as ROH & Chikara (& maybe CZW as well) tag champ in the Kings Of Wrestling was one of my favourite things on wrestling at the time. It was totally goofy and absolutely indy as hell, but great fun I thought.

 

None of that matters here though. I just feel that in the March-March period, Cesaro had more awesome moments, and did it while generally working with lesser guys than Daniel Bryan got to go with. Whoever wins his a worthy winner though.

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Cesaro works the mat better. Cesaro strikes better. Cesaro in control is about twenty million times more interesting than Bryan throwing shitty kicks. Cesaro got a smarky "hey let's chant random stuff" crowd to care about a Santino match. Cesaro carried Bo Dallas and Kofi Kingston to really, really good matches. Cesaro deadlifts people. Meanwhile Bryan relies on cliche comebacks and cheesy mannerisms to get heat which is probably the only thing he's better at than Cesaro.

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Cesaro works the mat better. Cesaro strikes better.

 

Nope and nope.

 

 

 

Cesaro in control is about twenty million times more interesting than Bryan throwing shitty kicks. 

 

You mean the shitty kicks that actually connect and consistently look painful? Are you talking about CM Punk or something?

 

 

 

Cesaro got a smarky "hey let's chant random stuff" crowd to care about a Santino match.

 

So what? Bryan constantly captivates the audience. What, we should give Cesaro a fucking cookie because he could do the same?

 

 

 

Cesaro carried Bo Dallas and Kofi Kingston to really, really good matches. 

 

Yeah, Bryan never brings anyone to really good matches. He's only gotten the very best performances out of Orton who has been dead weight at times this past year.

 

 

 

Cesaro deadlifts people.

 

Well whoop-de-fucking-doo. Hey y'all, Daniel Bryan is the hotness, but Cesaro deadlifts dudes, so vote for him instead. Really compelling argument.

 

 

 

 Meanwhile Bryan relies on cliche comebacks and cheesy mannerisms to get heat which is probably the only thing he's better at than Cesaro.

 

You're out of your fucking mind.

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Alright, Matt.  

 

1. Bryan takes a beating better than Cesaro.  You can exaggerate the spotty limb-selling all you want, but there is no one who garners more sympathy than Bryan. That Orton/Bryan Raw match that I've been pimping for the last month is a perfect example of Bryan selling the arm well.  Really, really well.  Go back and watch that one.

 

2. He is the best hot tag in wrestling, best comeback in wrestling and best underdog in wrestling.  Cesaro hasn't been put in those spots just yet, but Bryan doesn't get all the cool heel cut off stuff either (which was my favorite thing about Bryan Danielson back in the day).

 

3.  You have talked up how Cesaro can play heel mid-card tag team on Raw and then go down to NXT and play ace.  Bryan pulls this off EVERY WEEK.  In hour 1 he will work as the ace against Rollins or Ryback or whoever and then two hours later he is still the best underdog in wrestling for the main event storyline.  Advantage Bryan.

 

4.  RUNNING CORNER DROPKICK > EURO UPPERCUT.

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Daniel Bryan makes me care about his matches more than Cesaro does. It's not analytical, it's not a point by point breakdown, it's a gut feeling. That to me is what defines great pro wrestling. Does it make you feel something? Does it draw you into the story of the match? Does it make you buy into the character?

Matt D and Dylan will try to sway people by taking a cold, scholarly look at wrestling. They will break things down bit by bit....this guy sold limb damage better, this guy works the mic better...it's a very prowrestlingonly way of doing thing.

We are not pwo. We are the DVDVR board. We know what wrestling is. It's not something you watch while sipping tea and wearing a top hat. It's not something you break down and analyze. It's not a clinical, sterile thing. Wrestling is something you experience on a visceral level. It's an obsession most of us start as kids. At the very best it reawakens that childlike wonder inside us.

If we look at this match from a smarky, ROHBOT, Meltzer gave it 4 1/2 stars perspective it's close. Damn close. However if you open your heart, if you take a moment to remember when you could watch wrestling without worrying about werkrate or politics, and ask who scratches your wrestling itch? For me it's that shaggy headed, submission specialist, hippie badass Daniel Bryan.

Vote with your heart. Vote with your gut. Vote Daniel Bryan!

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OKay okay here's what Dylan wrote for reals.

 

 

For starters Daniel Bryan is going to win and I don't have a massive problem with that.  I submitted my WKO ballot a couple of weeks back and this year there were really seven guys I considered viable number one contenders. Daniel Bryan was one of those seven guys and I strongly considered him for my top spot for 2013.  He had a great year, and I agree with the sentiment expressed earlier that in many ways this was his best year yet in the WWE. 

 
Having said that I honestly think Antonio Cesaro was a better wrestler in 2013 and a better wrestler going from March-to-March as well.  And I say this despite the fact that I really didn't count myself a Cesaro/Claudio fan when he was on the indies, and in fact really hated the Kings of Wrestling stuff that he was doing right before he came to the WWE. 
 
Now the real murderers row of weak opponents Cesaro had in 2013 was heavily concentrated on the front end of the year that is irrelevant to this tournament.  Having said that on paper it seems obvious to me that Cesaro got far fewer golden opportunities than Bryan.  For example Cesaro had a couple of matches v. face Randy Orton, as opposed to heel Randy Orton which makes a world of difference.  He had the Kofi matches and Kofi is Kofi.  He was expected to carry Leo Kruger and Bo Dallas to good matches in NXT.  He was basically asked to save Swaggers career by teaming with him.  Then he had to go onto shows like Superstars or Main Event and work guys like Sin Cara, Justin Gabriel, et. who really had nothing going on.  For all the hand wringing about Bryan (and tag wrestlers in this tourney) this year, the guy got hot working against The Shield in trios (possibly the "easiest" job in recent memory in terms of turning in good matches), often as a hot tag where he worked his Mark Briscoe tribute act extremely well, but wasn't necessarily asked to carry the match.  He got to main event a major ppv with Cena, which is probably the second easiest job you can have when it comes to turning out good matches in the WWE.  The Orton series was with Orton as a heel which is a much easier gig (does anyone disagree with this?).  Then he had an awesome match on the last Raw of the year - with Luke Harper a guy who is arguably better than him right this second. 
 
Now I know what the comeback to this will be - "yeah, but Cesaro worked good/great wrestlers too during the period."  And that is true.  He worked opposite Cena in some awesome six-mans,where their exchanges were the best part of the matches.  He had the great series with Zayn.  He had an awesome and unheralded series with Sheamus that produced one of my top ten matches of the year.  He had great one offs with Bryan himself and Regal.  This year he had the great match with Cena, was great in the Chamber, had the really awesome performance v. heel Orton.  But he never got to work The Shield, he wasn't getting feature matches on ppv, he wasn't put in position to have marquee matches on the marquee shows nearly as much.
 
And yet Cesaro had a unique year.  This wasn't Chris Masters running the gauntlet of C-show guys, in seven-twelve minute matches.  Cesaro was carrying Kofi to the match of his life - for twenty-twenty-five minutes on a C-show.  He was doing the same with babyface Randy Orton.  He was going to NXT and playing an entirely different role working with Zayn, Kruger, Dallas, and Neville.  He was having wildly different matches with Sheamus on Smackdown v. what they did on Main Event.  I watched all of this and never saw a disappointing Cesaro match.  Even though I am generally a fan of formula in wrestling, I saw disappointing Bryan matches (namely an Ambrose match where I thought it was obvious that he was plugging Ambrose into his template, with no interest in mixing things up to play to the strengths of his opponent). 
 
Cesaro had three matches in my top ten matches of the year, all against different opponents (Regal, Sheamus, Zayn) and all worked in very different ways.  When and if I get around to doing a top fifty matches of the year, I expect that he will appear more than anyone, possibly as many as eight or nine times.  And that doesn't count the awesome stuff he has done so far this year (to be fair to Bryan the Bray Wyatt match was great and is a big feather in his cap for this year). 
 
Cesaro had good or great singles matches in the relevant time period against Sin Cara, Justin Gabriel, Dolph Ziggler, Sheamus, Leo Kruger, Adrian Neville, Sami Zayn, John Cena, Randy Orton, Daniel Bryan, Bo Dallas, Kofi Kingston, William Regal and Zack Ryder (these are just the ones I remember, it's notable that Ryback and Miz fall outside of the relevant period).  Several of these people he had multiple good matches with.  This despite the fact that he spent a big chunk of the time period as a tag worker.  By comparison I can remember Bryan having good matches with Cena, Orton, Wyatt, Harper, Rollins, Ambrose, Ryback, Cesaro, Christian, and Reigns.  Part of this is just a booking advantage, but there is a pretty noticeable difference in these set of of names, and yet I really don't feel like Bryan's best stuff stands out as better than Cesaro's, nor do I think he has more volume. 
 
Cesaro is the best base in wrestling.  He is one of the stiffest/snuggest workers in wrestling.  He has the most varied and interesting offense in wrestling (see the Sheamus Main Event match for a good example of this in action).  He was in arguably the best singles, trios and tag match in the WWE last year, and was the best guy in this years Elimination Chamber.  He played a variety of roles this year and was good in all of them.  he sells well, has strong timing, and is excellent at adapting to his opponents.  While he has many regular spots, and something of a formula against certain wrestlers, you never feel like he is working a "greatest hits" match.  He is probably as good at working hope/cutoff spots as anyone on the modern scene, and because he is such a great base there are things he can do with this that others can't.  He is the closest thing to a Finlay/Regal type on the modern scene in the sense that he does lots of little things right, whether it be the way he positions himself to block certain holds, the way he positions himself to apply extra "emphasis" to certain holds, or the way he adds extra spark at the right moments to maximum something's importance.
 
None of this is to say that Bryan is weaker than Cesaro in all of these categories.  But I do think Cesaro is clearly better in certain categories, and I don't know if I would rate Bryan as clearly superior in a single one of those categories. 
 
Cesaro had the volume.  He had the individual performances.  He has the versatility as a worker, in terms of the roles he played, and in terms of the settings he worked in.  He has the variety of opponents and match types that you ideally want to see in the "best in the world."  He has the carry jobs.  He has the ring time.  He has the absolute high end stuff you want to see out of someone at this level, albeit with some of it popping up in odd places (the Main Event matches v. Kofi and Sheamus, the NXT stuff with Zayn, et).  Pretty much the only thing he doesn't have is the push, which is kind of funny in that he is up against a guy whose most diehard fans have spent the bulk of the time period bitching about their guys push. 
 
So when I step back and look at it, Cesaro has to be my pick.  Bryan gets the benefit of every doubt, and is the closest thing to a "smark" consensus favorite in our increasingly fragmented universe.  I get that.  I know he is going to win, and it's hard to be mad about it.  But Cesaro was the better wrestler in 2013 and the better wrestler from March-to-March. 
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What kind of objective argument am I supposed to be making?  In the world of pro-wrestling Daniel Bryan has been repeatedly involved in things that made me mark the fuck out like I was 10 years old.  How much analysis do I need to provide for that?  I'm experiencing actual emotional responses to wrestling because of Daniel Bryan.  I can't provide a higher endorsement than that.

 

You're putting down the "GEE BRYAN'S REALLY OVER AND HAD A GREAT YEAR! THIS IS LIKE WRESTLEMANIA 20 ALL OVER AGAIN! THEY'RE DOING WHAT WE WANT FINALLY! YES! YES! YES!" response like it isn't valid, when I would argue that it's the only thing that is valid.  In 2006 I would be happy to discuss how long someone should appropriately pretend that their arm was hurting, but that is tedious to me now.  Everyone knows that Daniel Bryan has the most confident face during his missile dropkicks, and is therefore the best wrestler.

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O yeah..

The big spin is a stupid, crowd-pandering spot that has no place in a heels offense. The jerky camera bullshit makes it even worse.

All spots are technically stupid and crowd pandering.

But I concede on his fucking shiny head. Jesus Christ, I never noticed how blinding that shit is.

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Matt D and Dylan will try to sway people by taking a cold, scholarly look at wrestling. They will break things down bit by bit....this guy sold limb damage better, this guy works the mic better...it's a very prowrestlingonly way of doing thing.

We are not pwo. We are the DVDVR board. We know what wrestling is. 

Oh shit Matt this is going south on you bad. You're getting X-Pac heat this year.

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We are not pwo. We are the DVDVR board. We know what wrestling is. It's not something you watch while sipping tea and wearing a top hat. It's not something you break down and analyze. It's not a clinical, sterile thing. Wrestling is something you experience on a visceral level. It's an obsession most of us start as kids. At the very best it reawakens that childlike wonder inside us.

 

 

To be fair, only Von Kramer does the thing with the tea and he's a British Shakespeare professor. 

 

 

Matt Dumb.

 
You are setting a bad precedent to be used against people who run with a first name last initial. I'm just saying. 
 
 

What kind of objective argument am I supposed to be making?  In the world of pro-wrestling Daniel Bryan has been repeatedly involved in things that made me mark the fuck out like I was 10 years old.  How much analysis do I need to provide for that?  I'm experiencing actual emotional responses to wrestling because of Daniel Bryan.  I can't provide a higher endorsement than that.

 

You're putting down the "GEE BRYAN'S REALLY OVER AND HAD A GREAT YEAR! THIS IS LIKE WRESTLEMANIA 20 ALL OVER AGAIN! THEY'RE DOING WHAT WE WANT FINALLY! YES! YES! YES!" response like it isn't valid, when I would argue that it's the only thing that is valid.  In 2006 I would be happy to discuss how long someone should appropriately pretend that their arm was hurting, but that is tedious to me now.  Everyone knows that Daniel Bryan has the most confident face during his missile dropkicks, and is therefore the best wrestler.

 
This is fair, and I gave it to you on some level before. This is subjective. It's just sort of hard to have a conversation about what you're saying on a level more in depth or interesting than the Chris Farley Show. Then again, this isn't a conversation.
 

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O yeah..

The big spin is a stupid, crowd-pandering spot that has no place in a heels offense. The jerky camera bullshit makes it even worse.

All spots are technically stupid and crowd pandering.

But I concede on his fucking shiny head. Jesus Christ, I never noticed how blinding that shit is.

 

 

Be nice. Those of us with shaved heads get a little bit of chrome dome going. Some more than others.

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