ultimoDANK Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 DEAN AMBROSE IS THE PIVOTAL CHARACTER IN THE MOST IMPORTATNT ROMANCE OF THE @!ST CENTURY 21ST CENTURY!!!!!! You are bringing nothing to these discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I bring faith, love, and a pure heart blossoming with passion. and an occasional gif. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I can always use more gifs of Ambrose selling the noogie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 We are naked in our innocence but armored in our reserve. Wait, is this the Bray Wyatt one? Shit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AND THE BEAT GOES ON! Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Okada. He would have to be considered a massive success on all metrics as the new face of the second biggest wrestling company in the world, even if you're not in love with particular aspects of his selling etc. I get all that but it feels slightly nitpicky to me in the face of what he's achieved. Dean is hard to judge as he hasn't had the same opportunities... I think there's an inherent unfairness in judging people in different positions on the card. While I can absolutely see myself voting a lower card worker in certain, Ambrose would have to have some outstanding singles matches up his sleeve, and he doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Sports analogies don't work here. I don't enjoy Okada matches all that much for the most part. I do enjoy Ambrose matches for the most part. I can document why, but that has nothing to do with the CFL, NFL, punters, quarterbacks, et. It would be one thing if this was Ishii v. Ambrose, as I generally enjoy Ishii and thought he was the best worker in Japan last year (or at least the best one who made tape a good bit). But it's a guy who had some matches I didn't like, a few matches I thought were pretty good, and one tag match I thought was pretty great (12/23) v. a guy who was involved in a lot of tag matches I thought were great, and probably had just as many singles matches I enjoyed despite the fact that in some ways he was a "disappointment" as a singles worker last year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Sports analogies don't work here. I don't enjoy Okada matches all that much for the most part. I do enjoy Ambrose matches for the most part. I can document why, but that has nothing to do with the CFL, NFL, punters, quarterbacks, et. It would be one thing if this was Ishii v. Ambrose, as I generally enjoy Ishii and thought he was the best worker in Japan last year (or at least the best one who made tape a good bit). But it's a guy who had some matches I didn't like, a few matches I thought were pretty good, and one tag match I thought was pretty great (12/23) v. a guy who was involved in a lot of tag matches I thought were great, and probably had just as many singles matches I enjoyed despite the fact that in some ways he was a "disappointment" as a singles worker last year. I get that, Okada is a guy who isn't your cup of tea, so by all means vote for Ambrose. Okada was one of the best 10 workers I watched wrestle over the last year and I'm hoping that he doesn't lose this match based purely on the fact that people like another guys facial expressions. I know it is harder to get guys who work outside of WWE to advance, especially if they work outside of the U.S. I personally think if everyone watched a few Okada matches most people would vote for Okada. Since he got his big push last year, he has been one of the most consistently great workers in the world and him losing in the 2nd round after the biggest year of his career just seems wrong to me. Fair warning, despite the fact I think he is going to walk into the finals, if Cesaro falls behind I may have a stroke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scatterheart Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Okada was one of the best 10 workers I watched wrestle over the last year and I'm hoping that he doesn't lose this match based purely on the fact that people like another guys facial expressions. I know it is harder to get guys who work outside of WWE to advance, especially if they work outside of the U.S. I personally think if everyone watched a few Okada matches most people would vote for Okada. Since he got his big push last year, he has been one of the most consistently great workers in the world and him losing in the 2nd round after the biggest year of his career just seems wrong to me. Good grief. Didn't you see the posts where Matt D pointed out this is all subjective or when Jaedmc said you gotta do more than expect people to vote for something that you like or else they're idiots? People might not want to vote Okada no matter what he's achieved, not because "eeewww . . its foreign!", but because they think the New Japan style is dogshit. Or they might like the style and just think Okada is less good at it than others, despite the fact he holds the fake world title for the fake pretend fighting. Get over yourself. For the record Ambrose is my favourite wrestler in the world, so fuck Okada. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I get that, Okada is a guy who isn't your cup of tea, so by all means vote for Ambrose. Okada was one of the best 10 workers I watched wrestle over the last year and I'm hoping that he doesn't lose this match based purely on the fact that people like another guys facial expressions. I know it is harder to get guys who work outside of WWE to advance, especially if they work outside of the U.S. I personally think if everyone watched a few Okada matches most people would vote for Okada. If I hadn't already voted for Ambrose this would most certainly have convinced me to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LooseCannon Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 It is like voting for a really good punt returner for MVP over one of the best quarterbacks in the league. Yeah, the punt returner may be good, but you can't compare what he does to a player who has to lead the team.Or, it could be like the #2 wideout on a NFL playoff team against the MVP of the CFL. And I like New Japan a lot. But c'mon. New Japan might be #2, but that doesn't mean it's anywhere near the same level. I'm not saying Okada isn't on the same level or maybe even better work-wise, but part of your argument seems to be the companies they work for, and there's really nothing to that at all. No my argument is that Okada is a starting quarterback for a playoff team, and even if his team loses, it's not because he didn't come to play. Ambrose is a really good punt returner, and while it's great to have a guy who can take a punt to the house, he is essentially a luxury item that can't compare to a franchise quarterback. Okada is the better worker in a position where being a great worker is very important. Ambrose is really good excelling in a position where he could be average and get by *cough* Eric Rowan *cough*. If all things were equal, which they're not, I'd still take Okada. Taking into account that Okada is THE GUY there isn't much of an argument other than, I like Ambrose better because he makes crazy faces and does strange things that set him apart in 6 man tag matches. So, you're saying that comparing Okada and Ambrose is like comparing Tony Romo and Devin Hester? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offspring515 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I get that, Okada is a guy who isn't your cup of tea, so by all means vote for Ambrose. Okada was one of the best 10 workers I watched wrestle over the last year and I'm hoping that he doesn't lose this match based purely on the fact that people like another guys facial expressions. I know it is harder to get guys who work outside of WWE to advance, especially if they work outside of the U.S. I personally think if everyone watched a few Okada matches most people would vote for Okada. If I hadn't already voted for Ambrose this would most certainly have convinced me to. FALSE FLAG!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I ended up going with Okada. He has more singles matches that I enjoyed over the period and while I do really enjoy Ambrose.. It's difficult for me to give him full credit for the six man tags when he's usually the 4th or 5th best guy in them. Which is actually amazing... WWE is loaded with great workers right now. I stand by my statement that most people who voted for Dean probably did not watch more than one Okada match the entire year. Very few outside of Dylan and a couple others have brought their case to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I will expand upon this more later, but I THINK I saw every Okada taped match last year. Within that context I thought he was more consistent than guys like Tanahashi or Nakamura even in a way, but I thought that consistency represented a middle of the road standard rather than a "this guy is awesome" standard, and my favorite matches of his tended to hang on the performance of his opponents (v. Suzuki, v. Honma, in the 12/23 tag I thought Nakamura and Naito of all people stood out). I did think he was the best guy in all of the Tanahashi matches, though amazingly I actually preferred Tanahashi's best performance (the second Ishii) match to Okada's (probably the aforementioned tag). And on top of that those Tanahashi v. Okada matches leave me really empty (though I didn't really hate any of them, and liked the G1 draw). There is a point to all of this, though I suspect some will see me as a bad example of what I'm talking about...but basically what I'm saying is to see Okada is not necessarily to love him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 I stand by my statement that most people who voted for Dean probably did not watch more than one Okada match the entire year. Very few outside of Dylan and a couple others have brought their case to the table. Very few people out of the total number votes respond ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 One other thing to note for all the hand wringing about Okada not getting a fair shake, his vote total so far in this round is roughly the same as the combined vote total for Virus v. Rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JourneybyTrain Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I ended up going with Okada. He has more singles matches that I enjoyed over the period and while I do really enjoy Ambrose.. It's difficult for me to give him full credit for the six man tags when he's usually the 4th or 5th best guy in them. Which is actually amazing... WWE is loaded with great workers right now. I stand by my statement that most people who voted for Dean probably did not watch more than one Okada match the entire year. Very few outside of Dylan and a couple others have brought their case to the table. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least 15 Okada matches within' the time peroid and I've never came away terribly impressed with him. I don't really like the New Japan style anyways and a lot of his matches feel like they're going through the motion until the finishing stretch and I can't stand the Rainmaker. Ambrose has been in a ton of matches I like and did put in good performances even if Reigns and Rollins got more shine. Also his performance in the last two Wyatt vs. Shield matches are fresh in my mind, not to mention just generally liking his character and facials. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 One thing I think we should all be more careful about is the assumption that our preferred type of wrestling and/or our favorite wrestlers would be loved by everyone, or even consensus favorites if people were just exposed to them. I find myself saying this sort of stuff sometimes when it pertains to Buddy Rose because I think he was a really versatile wrestler, and had a lot of attributes all sorts of different people look for in wrestlers, but that in and of itself doesn't mean people are going to love Buddy as much as me or even like him for that matter. I mention this here because I have noticed this a lot with New Japan fans over the last couple of years. Quite often when someone says they don't love NJPW as much as big NJPW fans do you get some variation of "well you are in the distinct minority," which is pretty obviously false because the majority of wrestling fans (at least in this country) probably have no fucking clue that NJPW even exists. If you point this out then the argument switches to "that's not what I meant, what I mean is that of the people exposed to NJPW you are in the distinct minority." The problem is we have no way of knowing if that is true, and on top of it I have actually had several anecdotal cases which suggests to me this may not be the case. I'm not going to name names, but in the last year or so I have had a bunch of friends (both "online friends" and "real friends) ask me about NJPW. I always try to give a nuanced answer when giving my thoughts because contrary to popular belief I do not hate New Japan, and also I don't want to kill anyone's interest to watch something that is completely fresh to them. I have had several friends that have gone on to watch NJPW matches or even shows. Some of these friends have really enjoyed the shows. Several of them have told me they were boring. Others told me they were pretty good, but had no clue what the hype was surrounding Okada or Tanahashi. I had one guy, who is a somewhat well known figure in wrestling media and whose taste hardly mirror mine, tell me that he thought the "NJPW fad" (his words not mine) was the most unexplainable trend in wrestling fandom in years, and then proceeded to trash most of the roster. Another somewhat well known figure in wrestling media actually called me up one time to bitch and laugh about Meltzer calling Tanahashi one of the best big match workers of all time - and this is a guy who has generally been WAY more positive on post-AJPW split/Inokism murder of NJPW Japanese wrestling than me. Anyway, the point is not that the negative people comprise a majority, but rather that I think it assumes an awful lot to believe that the average fan would fall in love with Okada, or NJPW, or whoever if they just saw a couple of their matches. Which reminds me that another aspect of this is that if I had only watched a couple of Okada's matches, especially the most pimped ones over the last few years, I would likely have a much lower opinion of him than I do. I think one of the reasons I have softened some on Okada (and even Tanahashi as well) over the last year or so is because I watch damn near everything and not just cherry picked matches that are heavily pimped by hardcore fans. This tempers my expectations some, but also allows me to see these guys in different environments. Also if you watch a lot of a guy who has habits that annoy you, a lot of the initial annoyance will calm itself over time, and in my case at least I start to see areas where I think they are good, or have potential, or whatever that are obscured when I am in the first stages of being pissed off about what I regard as dumb shit. In general I think Okada losing to Ambrose wouldn't be a big deal EVEN IF I thought Okada was great and had a great year, because it's not like people weren't raving about The Shield, and when you think about acts and figures in wrestling who are actually close to being universally loved Bryan, Cesaro and The Shield are pretty much the three acts I think of first. If Reigns beats Blue Panther in the next round (I think that is up next?) some lucha fans might not agree with, hell they may even hate it, but I don't think it's necessarily reflective of anti-lucha bias. If Panther lost to Rockstar Spud or SUWAMA? Well that's different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 The few times I've watched Rose, I am always amazed how fast he can run the ropes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRGoldman Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 The few times I've watched Rose, I am always amazed how fast he can run the ropes. Brian, I would almost certainly vote for Buddy over Okada and Ambrose, but unfortunately Jae has not presented us with that awesome and clearly necessary option. Also, while the Playboy had many strengths as a wrestler, running the ropes at pace was not one that immediately came to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 There's no one in the tournament I'd vote over Buddy. Maybe if Bockwinkel entered under a mask, but even then... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 The few times I've watched Rose, I am always amazed how fast he can run the ropes.Brian, I would almost certainly vote for Buddy over Okada and Ambrose, but unfortunately Jae has not presented us with that awesome and clearly necessary option. Also, while the Playboy had many strengths as a wrestler, running the ropes at pace was not one that immediately came to mind. I swear to god, he was out moving the Midnight Rockers, despite that gut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Some will disagree with me but I just find it dificult to believe that the 59 people (the number of people who have voted for Ambrose) have actually seen more than a single match of or even know who Okada is. I had no issue with the lucha vs. lucha matchups having low vote totals because I respect that people chose not to vote on something they know nothing about, myself included. In this case, people are seeing Ambrose and voting without giving a second thought to the guy he is facing. That's how I am seeing it.. I think if more people knew of Okada they would be speaking on his year vs. Ambrose's year. Outside of a few people there's been little discussion of their respective years/matches/angles/etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Were talking about Buddy Rose now, keep up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSC Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Some will disagree with me but I just find it dificult to believe that the 59 people (the number of people who have voted for Ambrose) have actually seen more than a single match of or even know who Okada is. I had no issue with the lucha vs. lucha matchups having low vote totals because I respect that people chose not to vote on something they know nothing about, myself included. So how about kicking that off with info/links for Okadas year? I'm assuming everyone in here is pretty familiar with what Ambrose has done. Giving examples of why people should vote for Okada will go a lot farther than chastising those who have made an "uneducated vote". Because outside of he's the Champion! and He's headlined a bunch of shows!, I haven't seen a particularly convincing argument for Okada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 CSC, I had a busy morning. I came back and Okada was already down 10+ votes. Okada/Ambrose is pretty close for me and I have no problem with Ambrose winning at all. My issue is with those casting votes for the recognizable name and not giving "the other guy" a chance. It's just like Congress. "Hey, I've heard of him!" Here's part of my argument. Matt, I think it was Matt.. posted the facials gifs, right. I can match that with dropkicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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