DIRTSHEETZ~! THREAD

[Playa Shunna Ver 3.0]

Bryan said the commentary on one of the matches was the "best call ever"

I find that hard to believe did anyone hear it?

I don't think it's aired yet.

They were talking v anout the 3rd show, which is airing next Friday.

[supremebve]

You guys are crazy if you don't think race is a huge part of the fight promotion game.  Almost every black fighter since Jack Johnson has made his money based on people wanting to see him get their arrogant asses kicked.  Do you guys really think every black person who has ever put on a pair of boxing gloves has been an arrogant prick?  The entire prize fighting industry is based on racism.  Manny Pacquiao didn't run around calling himself the Mexicutioner as some sort of inside joke.  He called himself that because the entire country of Mexico would pay him to see him get his ass beat.  Muhammad Ali even used race based promotion against other black people.  Almost every professional athlete on earth is an arrogant prick, because they have been the best at whatever they've done for the majority of their life.  Black dudes who act like Jon Jones get a much bigger reaction than anyone else.  Peyton Manning publicly tore down a scoreboard operator, and no one gave a fuck.  If Cam Newton did the same thing every sports radio show in the country would talk about how he needs to be professional and humble himself.  You can act like a lot of the Jon Jones hate isn't race based, but most of the criticisms he faces don't really happen with white athletes.  Before this cocaine thing, name one concrete thing that he's done that led to him facing the kind of irrational hate he's faced. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Not that I don't agree with you, but the whole "they will never catch me doing this or that" and then getting a DUI set a lot of stuff in motion. He was in the car with two women that weren't his GF/fiance/mother of his children. Personally, I don't give a shit about that but everyone else does. There are people that are held in high regard that do whatever behind closed doors.

[Charlie M.]

Rousey is actually a good comparable to Jones. She was getting booed like hell up until the last fight or so when she embraced being an asshole.

 

She's white, good looking, a generational talent, and people still booed her because they didn't like her personality. She never really did much outside of being cocky and a bit of a jerk yet she was getting far more hate then Jones has received.

 

Jones has done a lot of little stuff over the years that has consistently annoyed fans. Sure, for some it might be race, but to use that and just ignore that he's been a jackass doesn't do any good either.

[odessasteps]

I thought she had a heel gimmick from the beginning, with the stopwatch and what not.

[Buy Me a Burrito]

Rousey is actually a good comparable to Jones. She was getting booed like hell up until the last fight or so when she embraced being an asshole.

 

She's white, good looking, a generational talent, and people still booed her because they didn't like her personality. She never really did much outside of being cocky and a bit of a jerk yet she was getting far more hate then Jones has received.

 

Jones has done a lot of little stuff over the years that has consistently annoyed fans. Sure, for some it might be race, but to use that and just ignore that he's been a jackass doesn't do any good either.

 

 

People booed her because our culture doesn't like women we perceive to be "stepping out of line". 

[supremebve]

 

Rousey is actually a good comparable to Jones. She was getting booed like hell up until the last fight or so when she embraced being an asshole.

 

She's white, good looking, a generational talent, and people still booed her because they didn't like her personality. She never really did much outside of being cocky and a bit of a jerk yet she was getting far more hate then Jones has received.

 

Jones has done a lot of little stuff over the years that has consistently annoyed fans. Sure, for some it might be race, but to use that and just ignore that he's been a jackass doesn't do any good either.

 

 

People booed her because our culture doesn't like women we perceive to be "stepping out of line". 

 

I think it has much more to do with people not giving a fuck about what the establishment thinks.  Rousey, Jones, and a lot of other people that get painted as villains are generally great at what they do and are unapologetic about it.  Race and sex have a great deal to do with how people are perceived in our society.  If you are a large black man, who can literally kick everyone's ass, a lot of people aren't going to like you if you carry yourself like Jon Jones. Ronda Rousey, who I love by the way, basically carries herself like we say we want our athletes to carry themselves.  How many times have you heard people talk about how they don't like when their favorite athlete or team is being too friendly with their opponent?  She is someone who goes into the cage to win fights and is focused 100% on destroying her opponent.  She's not trying to make friends, and isn't going to pretend she likes or respects someone she doesn't like or respect.  That is something that would rub some people the wrong way no matter who does it.  Ronda Rousey, in a sport that a lot of people still don't think women should be allowed to compete in, behaving like she behaves takes a brush fire and turns it into a forest fire.  The distaste for a lot of behaviors is multipled when applied to women and minorities in most cases.  The fact that someone who isn't in the "majority" decides to step out of line, and even when there is a backlash decide to keep doing it makes a lot of people uncomfortable.  Add the fact that she is legit the best in the world at what she does, adds fuel to the fire.  There is a reason she is the #1 draw in the sport, and it's because everyone is waiting for her to get her ass kicked.  The same reason that Ali, Tyson, Mayweather, and Rousey are big draws are because for everyone who would pay to see them win there were two who would pay to see them lose.  The entire fight game is built on finding the most polarizing person and pushing their ethnicity to the forefront.  It isn't an accident that Rousey is either seen looking like she is going to rip someone's head off or in an evening gown, it is the same game that all fight promoters play.  Take someone and push why they're different from the norm in order to have the like minded people root for them and have everyone else hate them.  She is essentially a white woman being pushed like a black man, she is the big bad wolf of womens MMA.  She looks mean, kicks ass, and doesn't apologize for beating the living shit out of everyone.

[Technico Support]

Nobody said shit about Jeremy Shockey's meathead jingoistic tattoo -- huge American flag and eagle; all he needed was the Twin Towers and "nevar 4get" and it would be perfect -- that covered his whole arm, but somehow Kaepernick, with his sleeves, looked like a "convict" and there was much pearl clutching.  This is the difference in perception between whites and blacks in sports.

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

 

 

You guys are crazy if you don't think race is a huge part of the fight promotion game.  Almost every black fighter since Jack Johnson has made his money based on people wanting to see him get their arrogant asses kicked.

 

No.

[supremebve]

 

 

 

You guys are crazy if you don't think race is a huge part of the fight promotion game.  Almost every black fighter since Jack Johnson has made his money based on people wanting to see him get their arrogant asses kicked.

 

No.

 

Not to get into a contentious arguement, but what part of this do you disagree with? 

 

For clarification, I'm talking about the big money prize fighters over the last 100 or so years.  Other than Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Leonard, what black fighter became a big money draw made their money without either playing the villain or fighting against the villain?  On a wrestling board I thought it would be obvious how much of the prize fighting game is based on making the champ a heel and building up underdog babyfaces to take him down.  The biggest boxing PPV of all time is the Oscar De La Hoya vs. Floyd Mayweather Cinco de Mayo fight, which was basically 100% race based promotion.  I'm not saying that everyone thinks these things, but the fights are promoted so that the people who do think these things will get riled up.  Do you think the whole Ricky Hatton hype was based on him being a great fighter, or was it essentially a new age "Great White Hope?"  I'd imagine the average hardcore fight fan watches fights to see good fights, but these promotions are to get people who aren't invested into the sport to watch.  The easiest way to get people who normally don't care about fights is to make it an us against them story, and like it or not race is the way it is done.  Just look at Mike Tyson's Punch Out, it is not an accident that every fighter in the game is a racial stereotype, that is how boxing has always been promoted.

[Cobra Commander]

Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Wolcott and Floyd Patterson were playing villains too?

I'd say that Liston (then Ali) were the first openly playing villains for awhile. Then after that Frazier (face), Foreman (heel in the 70s), Holmes (essentially a heel), Spinks (face), Tyson (eventually a heel), Holyfield (face), Bowe (heel-ish), and Lennox Lewis (boring)

[Jiji]

I thought everybody loved the trio of super welterweights in the '80s (Hagler, Hearns, Leonard) for the different flair and personality they brought to the table. And if anybody was unlikable of the three, it was Leonard for being corny and getting the odd controversial decision. This is all from recollection, conversations, and reading mind you as I wasn't even alive during The Fight.

 

I think we're trying to find simple answers to complex situations, as fans disliking Rousey and Jones probably have various reasons. Race and gender are certainly the predominant factors, I would wager, but I think those are too base to explain away all of the vitriol they face. If Jones just acted naturally rather than the plastic, manufactured super athlete of today, I think he would be better off. I think there's a natural inclination in many people to reject those types of athletes that are forced down their throats and this is not unique to the fight game. In hockey, Sidney Crosby has had media training as far back as I can remember, gives bullshit non-answers to just about everything and is completely disingenuous. People rejected him as The Next One and most preferred to watch and support the crass, uncouth, caveman looking yet 100% authentic Alexander Ovechkin when those two's rivalry dominated the sport. Jon Jones was the Sidney Crosby of MMA and it's reflected in his fake personality coming out in interviews, shit like Greg Jackson telling him to go check on Lyoto and make fans after Jones' win, and other stuff covered in the thread. Guys like Rashad and Cormier were able to make him crack and that's when people really started to care about Jon Jones fights as far as I know. If he just was himself, I think there'd be a lot less backlash his way. Rousey being muzzled (not being a day-to-day news follower of the sport, this was news to me, but I certainly noticed her making a lot fewer negative headlines) is preferential if not still incredibly disappointing to the corny, produced personality of Jon Jones. I suppose that's why he kind of won me over with the post-fight interview following his domination of Cormier. He was being honest. He's still awkward as hell even when being genuine but at least it's raw and himself. 

 

Also, going back to earlier responses, racist idiots not caring who entertains them totally reminds me of this scene:

 

[Technico Support]

I thought about that same scene yesterday after I posted that.  Thanks!

[Elsalvajeloco]

Going by Oyaji's example, GSP (when he was managed by Shari Spencer) would be the Sidney Crosby of MMA as he is probably the only one I know in the sport to receive media training. That pretty much made him the consensus number 1 worst interview in the sport. Frankie Edgar was managed by Spencer at one point too (before GSP fired Spencer in favor of his friend), but I don't think he was ever as bad. Jordan Breen of Sherdog IIRC pretty much told Shari Spencer outright that they couldn't have him back on Sherdog radio if he was going to give the exact same answers ("_______ is my toughest opponent ever, "I am in the best shape ever" etc.) since they write articles based on interview transcripts. I find that funny since MMA media talks all the time about wanting this to be a legitimate sport, but doesn't want to deal with that headache. I'm not saying that you can't have your cake, but that should obviously be considered part of the territory.

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

 

 

For clarification, I'm talking about the big money prize fighters over the last 100 or so years.  Other than Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Leonard, what black fighter became a big money draw made their money without either playing the villain or fighting against the villain?

 

Woah woah woah, back up here - you went from "Almost every black fighter since Jack Johnson has made his money based on people wanting to see him get their arrogant asses kicked" to " what black fighter became a big money draw made their money without either playing the villain or fighting against the villain".  You went from saying all black prizefighters were playing the heel to saying they were all playing the heel OR THE FACE.  Well shit, that really makes you need to thread the needle don't it?  

[supremebve]

 

 

 

For clarification, I'm talking about the big money prize fighters over the last 100 or so years.  Other than Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Leonard, what black fighter became a big money draw made their money without either playing the villain or fighting against the villain?

 

Woah woah woah, back up here - you went from "Almost every black fighter since Jack Johnson has made his money based on people wanting to see him get their arrogant asses kicked" to " what black fighter became a big money draw made their money without either playing the villain or fighting against the villain".  You went from saying all black prizefighters were playing the heel to saying they were all playing the heel OR THE FACE.  Well shit, that really makes you need to thread the needle don't it?  

 

Your point is well taken, but most big money prize fights featuring black fighters have been based on the black villain.  My point is that big money prize fights are one of the few places where it is deemed acceptable to play racial politics in public.  In these fights the money is made on the black villain.  Ali/Frazier was all about the brash, cocky, Ali and the quiet, workman like Frazier that was supposed to shut him up.  Tyson/Holyfield was about the righteous Holyfield vanquishing the monster Mike Tyson.  I'm not saying that it something that happens in 100% of prize fights with 100% of black fighters, but the history of prize fighting in the United States has basically been promoted on the basis of race.  Black fighters, more than any other race get pushed as villains.  It is a product of how society views young black dudes.  That is something that is based on the history of the United States, and like it or not it works every single time.  It is basically the same exact tactic of the conquering Mexican hero, or the spunky Italian underdog.  Those are the roles that have been pushed forward in the sport from the beginning, and probably always will.  Whether it was Jack Johnson, Rocky Marciano, Ricky Hatton, or Manny Pacquiao, their race and/or nationality has been their calling card and how they've been promoted.

[Cobra Commander]

what boxers have made money without fighting villains or being a villain? Flyweights based out of Thailand?

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

 

 

Your point is well taken, but most big money prize fights featuring black fighters have been based on the black villain.

 

That's simply not true.  Going all the way back to the days of George Dixon and Joe Gans, black fighters have typically been portrayed as black fighters.  To the extent that any black fighters have been portrayed as villains, it has largely been because these specific fighters such as Jack Johnson, Sonny Liston, and Muhammad Ali gave the audience ample reason to see them in such a light.  Indeed, in Ali's case it was clearly intentional.

 

 

 

Ali/Frazier was all about the brash, cocky, Ali and the quiet, workman like Frazier that was supposed to shut him up.

 

I suppose it could have been about the openly racist Ali and the post-racial Frazier.

 

 

 

Tyson/Holyfield was about the righteous Holyfield vanquishing the monster Mike Tyson.

 

Mike Tyson was the most popular and celebrated fighter in the world until he became a felon.  You can prove that yourself by watching his entrances against Larry Holmes, Trevor Berbick, or Michael Spinks.  Tyson was such a monster he had ultra-popular video games on Nintendo targeted specifically at children.  

 

And yes, sure, once he was convicted of raping a woman, told a sports reporter named Mark Malinowski, "I'll fuck you until you love me, faggot," and bit Evander Holyfield's ear off, yeah, sure, he wasn't portrayed the same way.  That's not racism, that's common sense.

 

 

 

Black fighters, more than any other race get pushed as villains

 

No. 

 

 

 

 It is basically the same exact tactic of the conquering Mexican hero, or the spunky Italian underdog.

 

I don't even know what a "conquering Mexican hero" promotion would look like.  A Mexican who wins a lot?  

 

 

 

Whether it was Jack Johnson, Rocky Marciano, Ricky Hatton, or Manny Pacquiao, their race and/or nationality has been their calling card and how they've been promoted.

 

That's a very different claim than, "Almost every black fighter since Jack Johnson has made his money based on people wanting to see him get their arrogant asses kicked."  Ethnicity has always played a role in boxing because boxing was a sport for gamblers, and casual gamblers like to bet on their own people.  To say that John L Sullivan wearing emerald green breeches somehow equates to Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, or Joe Gans being tarred as arrogant is a bridge much too far and ahistorical.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

what boxers have made money without fighting villains or being a villain? Flyweights based out of Thailand?

 

Shoutout to the Galaxy brothers!

[supremebve]

That's a very different claim than, "Almost every black fighter since Jack Johnson has made his money based on people wanting to see him get their arrogant asses kicked."  Ethnicity has always played a role in boxing because boxing was a sport for gamblers, and casual gamblers like to bet on their own people.  To say that John L Sullivan wearing emerald green breeches somehow equates to Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, or Joe Gans being tarred as arrogant is a bridge much too far and ahistorical.  

 

What we are saying isn't very far apart.  The biggest difference between what we are saying is basically semantic.  The discussion started because people acted like Meltzer's statement about how Jon Jones hate could be based on race was completely unfounded.  It isn't unfounded because prize fighting as an industry has cashed in on racial pride/hate.  Me saying almost every black fighter makes their money on people wanting to see him get his arrogant ass kicked is hyperbole, but isn't that far off.  It is a trope that is repeated too many times for it to be accidental.  Big time prize fights work best if there is a villain, and when all things are equal the black dude will most likely be the villain.  It is honestly the smart play for the promoter.  Being young, black, successful and humble only gets you so far as a fighter.  Being young, black, successful, and "arrogant" gets you way farther as far as pay days go.  That is my point.  Not that every black black dude cashes in on being a villain, but the majority of the most successful black prize fighters cash in on being a villain.  Mike Tyson was the most popular, and celebrated boxer in the world before he became a felon, but he was a much more financially viable boxer after he became a felon.  Pretty Boy Floyd Mayweather made significantly less per fight than Floyd "Money" Mayweather.  Mayweather made a decision at some point in his career to become a villain, and it was a brilliant promotional move.  Floyd Mayweather looked at guys like Roy Jones and Pernell Whitaker who were all-time great fighters but never draws, and he looked at Muhammed Ali and Mike Tyson and realized that is how to make money in prize fighting.  That is how this game works, that is how it has always worked, and most likely that is how it always will work.  I honestly didn't think it was a statement, it seems clear as day to me. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Meltzer was being sarcastic since people have been "bringing up the race card" since the hate of JBJ started in his defense. Meltzer's argument for the last 3 1/2 years at least was it's completely unfounded. IMO That's incorrect seeing how he based it off one show he was at years ago at the inception of Jones being disliked.

[Josh Mann]

That one seems to be less of a race issue and more of the obsession with winning thing. If Tom Brady had no SuperBowls and sucked, he'd get ripped to shreds for it.

They don't even have to suck. See Rivers, Phillip.

[Niners Fan in CT]

It's not impossible for a black fighter/player to be a popular and beloved hero. We've seen it plenty of times. My argument goes back to Tom Brady yelling at officials and teammates = passionate leader but Terrell Owens or Dez Bryant doing the same thing = loudmouth, obnoxious, cancer, etc..    Can't tell me that's not a race issue.

[Kevin Wilson]

Y'all listen to ESPN too much.  I think Brady is a loudmouth and obnoxious.  He isn't a cancer because he has rings, not because he is white.  Sherman is a loudmouth and obnoxious, is black, but not a cancer because he has a ring.  Winning trumps all.

[hammerva]

I love that idea that Meltzer thinks that WWE guys are stealing spots from New Japan now.   Oh really you can tell that Bubba Ray is stealing spots from Ishii?   Yeah I am sure that Bubba Ray was doing none of that before 2012 - 2013.