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Of the one hour or so that Armstrong was talking on that 30 for 30, I don't think he was talking openly (i.e. without playing a character or whatever) for more than 10 minutes, and 8 of those minutes were when he was talking about his childhood and cancer. Floyd Landis probably put it right when he said that for Armstrong lying is easier than being himself. If you (like me) are jaded enough to watch a sociopath for 3 hours, this is a very entertaining watch, especially when they put Lance's statements in contrast to some actions he took over time, for example calling Emma O'Reilly a whore.

And regarding cycling (or actually all endurance sports), I am very jaded. Doping was probably part-of-the-game forever, got turned to 11 in the early 1990ies with just the idiots (and the very unlucky ones) being caught. In all likelihood, this is still ongoing, just the methods have gotten more sophisticated, that it got even harder to detect dopers. The best chance to catch dopers nowadays seems to be by catching the doctor carrying out the doping practices and hoping that he talks.

Edited by Robert s
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He seems like a dick, but he gets somewhat of a pass from me given a) some good occurred from his actions with LiveStrong, no matter how little rooted in truth and b) pretty much the majority of anyone who got close to him in those Tours were either proven cheats or highly suspected of being one. 

Seemingly the complete opposite of my reaction to The Last Dance. Jordan was a sociopath but the rookies he beat the shit out of weren't. 

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1 minute ago, RolandTHTG said:

He seems like a dick, but he gets somewhat of a pass from me given a) some good occurred from his actions with LiveStrong, no matter how little rooted in truth and b) pretty much the majority of anyone who got close to him in those Tours were either proven cheats or highly suspected of being one. 

Seemingly the complete opposite of my reaction to The Last Dance. Jordan was a sociopath but the rookies he beat the shit out of weren't. 

I think you might have this one backwards.  Michael Jordan was an asshole, but he never actually harmed anyone.  Lance Armstrong was out here lying on people and trying their careers for calling him out on being a fraud.  Michael Jordan was pushing people to reach his level by matching his work ethic.  He's a crazy person, but no one was really worse off, because of Michael Jordan being a lunatic.  

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Yeah that's a fair point. I did kinda fall asleep at that point in the documentary, but yeah, definitely didn't give enough consideration to the people whose careers he ruined.  

I'm sure there were plenty of journalists who were ruined by Jordan unnecessarily, especially those who reported on his extracurricular activities. Plenty of players (Rodney McCray, Kwame, etc) ruined by his behaviour both as a player and GM. The Hall of Fame speech certainly wasn't for lack of trying.

Although will certainly admit apples and oranges with what Lance Armstrong did. Lance Armstrong ruined careers to protect his own and saw off a perceived threat. Jordan did it because he saw himself beyond reproach.  

 

 

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5 hours ago, Robert s said:

And regarding cycling (or actually all endurance sports), I am very jaded. Doping was probably part-of-the-game forever, got turned to 11 in the early 1990ies with just the idiots (and the very unlucky ones) being caught. In all likelihood, this is still ongoing, just the methods have gotten more sophisticated, that it got even harder to detect dopers. The best chance to catch dopers nowadays seems to be by catching the doctor carrying out the doping practices and hoping that he talks.

Honestly, given some of the stats in Armstrong's doping (like, how it was so in-depth in the time period that in the last Tour de France Armstrong won, you'd have to go all the way down to 21st to find a cyclist who was never connected to doping), it may be down past "catch the doctor and hope he talks" and into "give up the ghost. Make doping legal in competitive cycling and see what happens then."

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I suspect, given that EVERYONE was doping, Lance really was better than everyone else.

The way he kinda sidestepped around how he sued everyone that told the truth is really disturbing. I think it's a shame that him and Landis live that close to each other and he can't get over it enough to try and rebuild any of that friendship.

The other part that truly disturbed me in the doc, though, was his anger about being removed from the Foundation. Dude, you were and are radioactive, it can't do good in the world with you. Makes it feel like he doesn't actually care about all the good it accomplished, just about it being "his."

I didn't find it as compelling as the last dance, but, then, I don't honestly give a fuck about cycling, while I love NBA basketball, especially late 80s through mid 00s NBA basketball.

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1.  Armstrong's timeline might be wrong.  There's evidence that there was some sort of doping program in the first team he joined (Subaru-Montgomery) so he might have been doping even earlier.

2.  Armstrong would never have even been a Tour contender without the doping.  His body shape and composition pre-doping was much more suited for one day classics like LBL and Paris-Roubaix

3.  It's possible that Armstrong might have had access to "better" drugs than other cyclists.  And it wouldn't be that surprising; many people now think that Miguel Indurain was using a precursor of EPO before most other cyclists when he won his 5 straight Tours.

4.  I'm not sure if Armstrong was ever truly friends with Landis.  He says he had a problem with Landis leaving and becoming the team leader for Phonak, yet it seems that he had no problem when Tyler Hamilton did it earlier when he left for Team CSC (and considering that there was a general suspicion that Bjarne Riis doped to win his Tour and that he was running a doping program at CSC...).  And also it's still ironic how the entire downfall probably would have prevented if Armstrong had given a job to Landis, much like Armstrong had done to his friend->enemy->friend Kevin Livingston (who had left US Postal to join Telekom and try to help Ullrich beat Armstrong)

5.  I know it doesn't involve Armstrong, but it's a bit of a shame that they didn't talk more about Operation Puerto.  They mention Ullrich not being allowed to compete in that Tour, but also Ivan Basso (who had finished second in the previous Tour) wasn't allowed to compete.  There's still lingering questions as to whether Contador really should have been cleared.  There's still questions as to why only cyclists were caught up in it when Fuentes and Manzano said that La Liga players were involved.  And then there's the rumor about the one case record that seemed to fit Rafael Nadal...

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3 hours ago, dogwelder said:

5.  I know it doesn't involve Armstrong, but it's a bit of a shame that they didn't talk more about Operation Puerto.  They mention Ullrich not being allowed to compete in that Tour, but also Ivan Basso (who had finished second in the previous Tour) wasn't allowed to compete.  There's still lingering questions as to whether Contador really should have been cleared.  There's still questions as to why only cyclists were caught up in it when Fuentes and Manzano said that La Liga players were involved.  And then there's the rumor about the one case record that seemed to fit Rafael Nadal...

They could easy do a whole 30 for 30 about Operation Puerto and its cover-up. Just look at the long, long list of Spanish cyclers that have been named and how many in the end were suspended. The only one I can see is Valverde, and his suspension was due to the efforts of the Italian NOC. Apart from that, it only hit non-Spaniards like Basso, Ullrich and Jaksche.

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  • 7 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...
On 1/10/2021 at 2:42 PM, hammerva said:

Oh man this could be awesome

 

It wasn't! First whoever made the decision to have "deep fake" stand-ins for Davis and Rozelle should be fired, they looked like cut scene characters from an old PS2 game. Both of their voices were way off! Al Davis sounded like Bill Burr trying to do a New York accent and Pete Rozelle who was born and raised in California somehow had a Chicago accent. They glossed over one of the biggest reasons Davis made the move to LA, he thought NFL games were going to switch to a pay per view system and that he needed to move in before anyone else. There was also way way way too much of the old cry baby Al Davis/Raider bellyaching over getting their assed kicked by the Steelers in the 70's, from the crying over an icy field in the 1975 AFC Championship Game in Pittsburgh to the flat out lies when it comes to the Immaculate Reception. They also never mentioned the underhanded way Davis took control of the Raiders and they treated the act of pity the NFL gave Mark Davis in the move to Vegas as some sort of triumph for Al Davis.

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Yeah as soon as I saw that "deep fake"  technology I knew this would be disappointed.   Seriously there are hundreds of hours of footage and they had to be cute.   Also don't get how the Steelers stuff had anything to do with the Rozelle vs Davis argument.  Unless you assume that Pete was on the take for the Rooneys

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

Per Deadline, ESPN is planning a 30 for 30 on "American Gladiators."

Not much is being suggested about this ... only that will focus on show co creator Johnny Ferraro and "many of the larger than life Gladiators."

Curious who will be interviewed, particularly since Mike Adamle is likely unable to participate due to his health and two of the more popular Gladiators -- Hawk and Siren (the deaf Gladiator) -- have passed. Also wondering how much time will be given to the 2008 revival with Hogan.

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On 4/12/2021 at 4:07 PM, The Last said:

Lance was very compelling, but he still comes across like a petty egomaniac.

I've met him in person and he comes across very well in person, but he's basically my idea of "the ugly American" and has been since at least his teens.  I'm legit surprised people embraced him during his rise to fame because people in cycling/ triathlon knew him by reputation well before he became world-class.  First time I ever heard of him was when a friend came back from a triathlon with a wacky story about some skinny kid who had a meltdown in the parking lot after a small race and challenged a couple pros and the the race director to a fight (after screaming obscenities at them).  Realized years later the kid in the story was Lance.  

Armstrong became prominent around the same time Greg LeMond faded.  LeMond always struck me as a great guy.  Polite, well-spoken, gracious when he lost, etc.  I've always been a little sad that Armstrong became the bigger star.

 

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  • 2 months later...
  • 1 month later...

I'm gonna throw these here because they fit despite being Netflix and not 30 for 30:

Netflix has a 5-part series of documentaries covering various sports topics.  I've seen two so far:

Untold: Malice at the Palace - as the name implies, this is about the Pistons/Pacers brawl from 2004.  It is *GREAT*.  It's roughly 90% interviews with Jermaine O'Neal, Stephen Jackson, and Metta World Peace.  All 3 come across really well and very honest.  You can't help but feel bad for these guys as they basically lost an NBA title that night.  They had a loaded team and were rolling though it was still early in the season.  They blew out the defending champs.  Metta was averaging 25 a game.  And they were doing it without Cheryl's brother.  It's also pretty clear that there's some bitterness from Miller toward all 3 guys and O'Neal/Jackson toward Metta.  O'Neal & Jackson are especially angry at Metta for bailing on them early the next season and demanding a trade.  All in all, despite not really delivering on its implied promise of great new footage of the incident, this is a fantastic documentary.  9/10.

Untold: Deal With the Devil - tells the story of Christy Martin, the first big female boxing star.  Documents her rise from fighting in toughman competitions to stealing the show on the undercard of a Mike Tyson PPV and becoming a Sports Illustrated cover athlete.  Along the way she married her trainer who turned out to be an abusive jerk.  Things went really south when Christy decided to leave him for her ex-girlfriend and he tried to murder her.  It's a story I only knew a little about (basically just that she was a fighter and was successful) and it's told really well.  Martin is pretty honest and doesn't always come off great but seems to be in a good place now, married to one of her former opponents.  It's very good and worth watching but not as compelling as the Palace one.  8/10.

 

They have three more coming, one per week,  There's a Caitlyn Jenner one that starts today.  There's one on a minor league hockey team run by a teenager that apparently had some criminal involvement - something like that.  And then a tennis one.  The hockey and tennis ones look particularly compelling to me but I'll watch them all.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 8/24/2021 at 4:22 PM, Tabe said:

I'm gonna throw these here because they fit despite being Netflix and not 30 for 30:

Netflix has a 5-part series of documentaries covering various sports topics.  I've seen two so far:

Untold: Malice at the Palace - as the name implies, this is about the Pistons/Pacers brawl from 2004.  It is *GREAT*.  It's roughly 90% interviews with Jermaine O'Neal, Stephen Jackson, and Metta World Peace.  All 3 come across really well and very honest.  You can't help but feel bad for these guys as they basically lost an NBA title that night.  They had a loaded team and were rolling though it was still early in the season.  They blew out the defending champs.  Metta was averaging 25 a game.  And they were doing it without Cheryl's brother.  It's also pretty clear that there's some bitterness from Miller toward all 3 guys and O'Neal/Jackson toward Metta.  O'Neal & Jackson are especially angry at Metta for bailing on them early the next season and demanding a trade.  All in all, despite not really delivering on its implied promise of great new footage of the incident, this is a fantastic documentary.  9/10.

Untold: Deal With the Devil - tells the story of Christy Martin, the first big female boxing star.  Documents her rise from fighting in toughman competitions to stealing the show on the undercard of a Mike Tyson PPV and becoming a Sports Illustrated cover athlete.  Along the way she married her trainer who turned out to be an abusive jerk.  Things went really south when Christy decided to leave him for her ex-girlfriend and he tried to murder her.  It's a story I only knew a little about (basically just that she was a fighter and was successful) and it's told really well.  Martin is pretty honest and doesn't always come off great but seems to be in a good place now, married to one of her former opponents.  It's very good and worth watching but not as compelling as the Palace one.  8/10.

 

They have three more coming, one per week,  There's a Caitlyn Jenner one that starts today.  There's one on a minor league hockey team run by a teenager that apparently had some criminal involvement - something like that.  And then a tennis one.  The hockey and tennis ones look particularly compelling to me but I'll watch them all.

I've watched the last three.  I forget the actual names so you get my versions:

Caitlyn Jenner - I almost didn't watch this one.  I wasn't really wanting to hear yet another fawning "what a hero!" Caitlyn story.  But I did watch and, well, that's not what this.  Instead what you get is a detailed look at Bruce - yes, Bruce - Jenner's athletic career.  Lots of detail on his training and all kinds of cool footage from both Olympics he competed in.  Caitlyn talks about competing so hard in sports as a way to deal with her gender dysphoria.  They also interview one of Caitlyn's sons (Burt).  Caitlyn and the son reveal that Caitlyn tried to, and ultimately backed off of, transitioning waaaay before she actually did, in the late 80s when Burt was in 5th or 6th grade.  Overall, this one ended up being a lot better than I expected as the Olympic decathlon stuff is what I most wanted to learn about regarding Jenner and that's what we got.  And, political idiocy aside, good for Jenner to finally be comfortable with herself.  7/10.

Mardy Fish - Fish was a hardworking tennis player who finally broke through and then...walked away.  As a youth, Fish moved in with Andy Roddick's family and trained with Andy.  As they both progressed, Andy pulled away and became the superstar.  Fish bounced around making a solid living.  In 2011, he broke through and made the year end finals.  He then advanced to the 4th round at the 2012 US Open where he was to face Roger Federer.  However, he had a massive panic/anxiety attack and walked away.  He'd play a little bit the next 3 years but was essentially finished.  This was a pretty good episode, telling a story I knew nothing about.  Knew who Fish was but not his story.  Timely stuff with the Naomi Osaka and Simone Biles stories this summer as well. 7/10.

The Hockey One - In the early 2000s, a Connecticut mobster bought an expansion franchise in the UHL hockey league - and then assigned his teenage son to run the thing.  The son actually made a go of it, creating a team predicated on brawling and skill that actually ended up being successful.  The Danbury Trashers (so-called because the dad was in the garbage hauling business) were very popular locally.  This is a pretty wild story both on the ice and off.  Lots of brawling and suspensions on the ice.  Money laundering off the ice, as the whole thing ended up being a front for the dad's illegal activities.  They've got former players on here talking about being paid with stacks of cash and treated like kings in a way far exceeding the level of the league.  There's a lot of idiots and garbage people in this one, especially the ridiculously over-the-top poser tough guy trainer hired by the Trashers.  The Trashers lasted only 2 years before collapsing when the feds moved in.  This is a highly entertaining story that I'd heard nothing about previously.  8/10.

 

Overall, all 5 episodes of the series were very good or better.  3 of the 5 stories I knew basically nothing about but learned plenty.  Definitely recommend checking out all of them.

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The 30 for 30 on the Mets is just great and pretty much everything you thought it would be.   Went from the beginnings to their World Series run to why it only lasted a year.    Some thoughts:

1.  While most people assumed the star would be Strawberry and Gooden, the true star on this is Keith Hernandez.    Just a strangely fascinating person who is so likeable and hateable at the same time depending on the person he was talking about.  At times talking while playing with his cats.  Brutally honest about his relationship with his dad, his , his drug issues and involving in the cocaine trial, and more.  The story of him  telling Jessie Oroscco that if he throws another fastball in the 16th inning of Game 6 against Astros he will fight him on the actual fight.

2.  The Mike Scott talk was great.  I remember him being completely unhittable in 1986 but forgot that everyone thought he was scuffing the balls.  And then you see the actual balls from those games and man those balls were scuffed like crazy.  Like how in the world did nobody notice these.  I guess it was because of how hated the Mets were

3.  The scene of them winning the division is insane.  There are probably 100 people on the field and the ball hasn't reached first base yet.  The field afterward looked like a checkerboard with so many chunks taken out.  People trying to steal home plate in front of the cops.   Fans today will never realize the days of the 70's and 80's how easy it was to celebrate in the crowd.  

4.  The Plane Ride from Hell after winning the 86 NLCS.   Thousands of dollars in damage and Davey Johnson looking at the bill to the players and rips it up and says Fuck them we will make a shit load of money

5.  I loved Gary Carter as a kid but apparently Mets players hated him because he was so different than him.  Even his wife was kind of treating him like he was this lovable dork.  

6.  Of course the game 6 of World Series is awesome.   Had no idea that they actually announced in the game that Bruce Hurst was the MVP and congratulated the Red Sox for winning.  Nice to see they got Calvin Schradi for it.     All the players going to Bill Robinson the 1st base coach saying "I am not going to the last fucking out"

7.  You know Dwight Gooden has a major drug problem when just days after Len Bias death he is telling people to give him that Len Bias shit.

Lots of other great stories like the George Foster controversy,  Roddy Piper cutting a promo at MSG talking about how the Mets will still win down 2-0, and of course Lenny Dykstra being himself.   

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  • 6 months later...

I somehow never caught the Phi Slama Jama episode before tonight, and... Holy fuck the missing guy was in Belleaire? That's like, wow levels of middle of nowhere (and also not anywhere near Detroit despite what the the documentary says. Like 4 or 5 hours north of Detroit.)

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  • 4 weeks later...

The new 30 for 30 on Greg Norman is really good.  The recap of the 96 Masters is so excruciating to watch.  The story of a British reporter at a bar telling Norman at Saturday night "not even you can fuck this up" is hilarious.  Also interesting that many believe that being paired with Faldo who was so damn competitive against Greg was the worst thing that could have happened to him

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  • 9 months later...

The newest one on the 2000 Ravens is very good even though it pains me as a Steelers fan.    Yeah you have to get through a ton of massive egos with Ray Lewis, Shannon Sharpe, and Brian Billick.  It isn't just about the defense as they do mention how awful their offense was most of the year with Tony Banks and in some cases Trent Dilfer.  The true star of this is definitely Tony Siragusa as his stories as expected are incredible.  The Washington game where he was "backed up"  as he mentioned it is just great.   They did a celebration/video preview of the 30 for 30 in Baltimore area the month before Tony passed away and yeah some really good stories.   I guess this biggest thing from it was Trent Dilfer claiming that Greg Williams told him that he stole Trent's playbook before the AFC Divisional game against the Titans.

Although as great as that team was the 2000 AFC was really weak.  The Titans were very good and the Jaguars were not bad but yeah that was it.  The AFC North in 2000 makes the NFC East in 2020 look like an Arena Football team.  

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The Chiefs "lost" Elvis Grbac to the Ravens after the 2000 season.

I haven't seen that 30 for 30 to know if they mentioned anything post-2000, but the whole "replacing Trent Dilfer with Elvis Grbac, only to have Grbac retire after a year is sorta hilarious.

Sure, Grbac was able to lead the league on passing yards on a 7-9 Chiefs team but I don't think Grbac was ever actually a popular QB around here, especially if you were a Chiefs fan who believed that they should have went to Rich Gannon post-Steve Bono. Grbac might have been the definition of a guy who posted numbers but never won anything.

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