WrestleMania 3: Hogan/Andre or Savage/Steamboat

[Technico Support]

2 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Bruno's last match was a tag match with Hogan in Baltimore in late 87

I was at that show!  

[Dolfan in NYC]

Well, more to the point... Bruno is the one that says You never gave me a title shot, beating Hogan up and turning heel.  

I don't know if you ever get a crowd to boo Bruno, but the same could've been said about Andre. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

I wasn't going to belabor the point, but since we're in close proximity, I would like to say that Hogan/Andre worked because Heenan was absolutely phenomenal. Moreover, he was phenomenal at getting over the essentials of the feud including a long standing babyface (at least that portion of his career) in Andre being figuratively and literally the biggest heel in the business for as long as he needed to be. In my mind, what Heenan did on the mic is the equivalent of what Savage and Steamboat did in the ring at WrestleMania 3. He made it seem real and something that cannot be missed. Most people probably knew that match in terms of work would be below standard even for 1987. He still was able to sell you on it being the grandest event of all. If you replaced Andre with Bruno, I dunno if it would still be the exact same. However, Bobby Heenan could probably make it work if he is Bruno's mouthpiece.

[porksweats]

25 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Well, more to the point... Bruno is the one that says You never gave me a title shot, beating Hogan up and turning heel.  

I don't know if you ever get a crowd to boo Bruno, but the same could've been said about Andre. 

You'd have the most luck with Bruno here mainly because it was held in Michigan rather than anywhere in the Northeast.

 

If it was a MSG Mania, absolutely no way.

[Technico Support]

I doubt Bruno would have turned heel, teamed with Heenan, and been part of this big sports entertainment circus.  Still, imagining Bruno in the Andre part through, what, Mania 6ish, is hilarious.  Bruno in the twin ref angle.  Bruno part of the Megabucks, distracted by Elizabeth disrobing.  Bruno in a tag title run with Haku.  All amazing.

Edited April 15 by Technico Support

[Eivion]

Maybe its because it took place before I was born, but by the time I saw both matches neither did nearly as much for me as I hoped despite liking all involved. I'd would rather watch the Maple Leaf Gardens Steamboat/Savage match than either of the WM3 matches.

I understand the appreciation for both, but they wouldn't make a top 20 list for Wrestlemania matches for me unless we are talking mostly from an importance aspect.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I don't think there's a wrong answer but for me I like to separate spectacle from the layout/in-ring performances.  Hogan and Andre did everything right but it is the spectacle that elevates it to being a historic moment.  It's all of the build and the promo segments and the fact that they were "larger than life" icons that makes people sit down and take notice. Steamboat and Savage had a classic wrestling match where the structure is creative, well thought out and the performances are amazing.  

It's possible for a great wrestling match to also be a great spectacle and I think Savage/Steamboat has more of both. 

[odessasteps]

It’s also funny now to think Dave gave it something like -5 stars. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

32 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

It’s also funny now to think Dave gave it something like -5 stars. 

In my mind, I would be fine with no star rating to be honest. 

There was nothing that Hogan and Andre could do in ring to match the level of hype nor would it have been needed in the first place to justify the match. The only way it would have fell short of realistic expectations is if Andre's back gave out and they had to go home a minute or so into the match. Otherwise, it was what it needed to be.

Now juxtapose that against other marquee matches of Hogan like Warrior at WM VI (overachieved by every metric but they had planned every detail of the match meticulously beforehand) or Hogan vs. Sting at Starrcade 1997. Now if you want to give that latter match a negative star rating, be my guest. For a match where the leadup was booked as perfectly as it possibly could be and everything fell into place over a year and a half, they lost the crowd almost immediately and then somehow lost the crowd even more when Patrick made the non slow count pinfall, and only got it back when Sting "won". That whole match from beginning to end deserved as many negative stars into the infinite.

[username]

To me it comes down to this: it would not be super difficult to get another Macho/Savage type of "technical showcase with compelling characters" set up for a Mania and have it deliver; there ain't never gonna be another Hogan/Andre, even the rematch the very next year wasn't that. I can't vote against the one of one.

[caley]

I'm curious how many people have gone back to watch Hogan-Andre over the years. I saw it when I was 10/11-ish, thought it was kind of boring (I wasn't a big Hogan guy, except for his theme which is/was amazing) and the idea of watching 23+ minutes of Hogan-Andre now sounds like torture to me (That's the listed time when I look it up on YT). I understand its importance, I enjoy the big powerslam moment but thinking about trying to watch it again makes me think I'd get 30 seconds in before looking up something on my phone.

By the way, I saw a bit of the Hogan-Andre Rivals show on A&E the other night and I enjoyed where Hogan said he thought it was so important to sell the emotion of the moment when Andre aligned with Heenan that he wanted to cry a single tear during the segment. So he put Vick's on his finger and as Andre tore off his shirt he puts his finger by his eye to try to coax a tear, but Andre just shakes the shit out of him as he tears off Hogan's shirt that Hogan couldn't get his finger close enough to his eye, worried about poking himself, that he wasn't able to pull it off. He also said that between the blood on his chest and the moment itself, the tear wasn't really needed anyways.

[odessasteps]

Isn’t tearing off Hogan’s cross (I mean symbol) good enough? 

[Hamhock]

12 hours ago, Technico Support said:

I doubt Bruno would have turned heel, teamed with Heenan, and been part of this big sports entertainment circus.  Still, imagining Bruno in the Andre part through, what, Mania 6ish, is hilarious.  Bruno in the twin ref angle.  Bruno part of the Megabucks, distracted by Elizabeth disrobing.  Bruno in a tag title run with Haku.  All amazing.

The greatest of these would be Bruno scared of snakes and passing out in fear on SNME.

[Pete]

What about swapping Bruno in for Hogan? I'm pretty sure that match never happened anywhere, and Andre "ending Bruno's career" would've been visceral as hell.

[odessasteps]

Vince Sr famously refused to book Bruno v Andre.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I've watched Andre vs. Hogan several times over the years.  It's spectacle. The commentary by Jesse and Gorilla make it feel like the biggest thing ever and it was the biggest thing ever.  I prefer Steamboat and Savage but Andre/Hogan is the peak of a carnival show turning into an obscenely profitable business. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

Vince Sr famously refused to book Bruno v Andre.

But it might've happened in another territory (not saying it did). Toronto, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis etc.

[twiztor]

2 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Vince Sr famously refused to book Bruno v Andre.

what was his reasoning?

[SirSmUgly]

8 hours ago, caley said:

I'm curious how many people have gone back to watch Hogan-Andre over the years. I saw it when I was 10/11-ish, thought it was kind of boring (I wasn't a big Hogan guy, except for his theme which is/was amazing) and the idea of watching 23+ minutes of Hogan-Andre now sounds like torture to me (That's the listed time when I look it up on YT).

The Vault was running WM3 a handful of months back, so I've seen both matches recently. I was one of those kids who quickly became a huge Savage backer, so by the time I saw this show on VHS as a very young kid, I knew Savage had lost and enjoyed the match despite that; I thought Hogan/Andre was fine, but I was super into Andre because of The Princess Bride, which I think kept me more interested in that match.

Once again when I watched it a couple of months ago, I understood why Savage/Steamboat would be awesome in the context of watching mid-'80s WWF, but I've seen too much wrestling for the match to have that kind of impact, and when I saw it as a five- or six-year-old kid, I wasn't yet conceptualizing things like WWF house style and how Savage/Steamboat broke away from it. It was just a good match. So I certainly still enjoyed it, but I've never had the reverence for it that probably older fans who could really lock into the different pacing and tempo were at the time have had for it. I've also seen so much Savage and Steamboat at this point that I've seen better from both of them. 

The Steamboat match that I lose my shit over even if probably a lot of other fans think it has been surpassed is Steamboat/Rude Iron Man, y'know? Once I turned about eight or nine, that was when I started to delineate house styles and the unique ways in which wrestlers did spots to simulate real sports strategy, and so by the time I saw Beach Blast on VHS, that was my Steamboat/Savage moment for Steamboat. 

I think 1992-1994 are probably the pivotal years in my wrestling fandom because I can name multiple matches from that time that codified most of what I still value most in a pro wrestling match. Steamboat/Rude Iron Man, Bret Hart at KotR '93, Flair/Regal WoS knockoff series on Worldwide are probably the three things that most define my in-ring preferences. 

Edited April 16 by SirSmUgly

[tbarrie]

8 minutes ago, twiztor said:

what was his reasoning?

I would imagine he just didn't want either Bruno or Andre to job. But if anybody knows of a more intricate reason, I'd be curious to hear what it is.

[Cobra Commander]

Bruno vs Pedro Morales being a panned 75 minute draw might be a reason why they didn’t book Bruno and Andre

[Curt McGirt]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

But it might've happened in another territory (not saying it did). Toronto, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis etc.

Question I have with that is, how far away did Bruno travel from the northeast and thus Vince Sr.'s grasp?

[Pete]

20 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Question I have with that is, how far away did Bruno travel from the northeast and thus Vince Sr.'s grasp?

Bruno never really left the WWF between title reigns per se, but not having the strap gave him the latitude to stay local to his Pittsburgh territory or travel farther afield... Japan, Montreal etc. He also had a longish Indianapolis run in the awesomely-named ANNIHILATION INC team with Dick the Bruiser.

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

The Steamboat match that I lose my shit over even if probably a lot of other fans think it has been surpassed is Steamboat/Rude Iron Man, y'know? Once I turned about eight or nine, that was when I started to delineate house styles and the unique ways in which wrestlers did spots to simulate real sports strategy, and so by the time I saw Beach Blast on VHS, that was my Steamboat/Savage moment for Steamboat. 

I am sure that there are like 5-8 Puro/Joshi matches that may top it personally, but as far US related matches, Steamboat/Rude 30 minute Iron Man is in the my top 10. At worst, it's just on the outside of that top 10 just cause it happened almost 35 years ago now.

Now that said, the Cactus Jack/Sting match on the same card along with War Games that same year are sentimental favorites cause they got me back into WCW. 

[Hamhock]

8 hours ago, Pete said:

What about swapping Bruno in for Hogan? I'm pretty sure that match never happened anywhere, and Andre "ending Bruno's career" would've been visceral as hell.

Okay, this would have been perfect on a number of levels. Bruno hated his entire 1985-1987 in-ring run, he liked Andre, he probably would have done one of those “loses due to ref-stoppage/blood-loss” non-jobs that he would do during his title reigns if it meant never having to wrestle again. Set it up with another one of those “You piece of slime!” interview outbursts and have him get destroyed on SNME.