SovietShooter Posted April 29 Posted April 29 Fuck the MCMG, I want AEW to bring in Bo Dallas and someone else as The BlackJacks 3.0. Have them run RoughShod over the tag division, mustaches and all. Book it Coach 2
porksweats Posted April 29 Posted April 29 35 minutes ago, SovietShooter said: Fuck the MCMG, I want AEW to bring in Bo Dallas and someone else as The BlackJacks 3.0. Have them run RoughShod over the tag division, mustaches and all. Book it Coach The One Called Manders would fit the bill. 2
tbarrie Posted April 29 Posted April 29 12 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said: Curious, what you see as an example of the Bucks being portrayed as a 'dominant tag team'? Geez, it's kind of omnipresent enough that it's hard to name specific examples. Like, the announcers are constantly talking them up as one of the greatest tag teams in history. Pretty much every match of theirs includes a control segment where they hit a lengthy series of unanswered moves on their opponents, and for me, it never works. 12 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said: I've largely loved their AEW run, babyface or heel, based in large part how good they make their opponents look. Honestly, that seems bizarre to me. Granted, they don't appear to be reticent about doing jobs when appropriate. But the actual meat of their matches rarely does their opponents any favours, in my opinion. The worst of it was when they were heels who would constantly make their babyface opponents stooge for the Bucks' alleged comedy spots. (Though to be fair, I don't think they've done that in a few years - I don't recall any of that during their run as abusive EVPs or subsequent down-on-their-luck run after they lost their authority.) 12 hours ago, Technico Support said: I like the Bucks in part because their matches are crazy and fun. Sometimes you’d rather watch Crank instead of The English Patient. See, I can respect that. As I've mentioned before, there are times when I can turn my brain off and enjoy a Young Buck match. Just - not often. 1
just drew Posted April 29 Posted April 29 8 hours ago, Casey said: didn’t the early days of UFC prove to everyone that size doesn’t really mean shit? I mean according to this discussion, someone like Mabel should’ve squashed Bret Hart like a bug and had a title reign that would make Bruno blush. Because the small guys knew what they were doing. They didn't just go out there with the support of the crowd and "fighting spirit" and slay giants. That's the point I've been trying to make this whole time. Royce Gracie could fold dudes up like an Origami crane. Sean Waltman. Bryan Danielson. Mike Bailey. Bret Hart. Rob Van Dam. Chris Jericcho. Eddy Guerrero. All small guys who were credible against much larger opponents because their style was convincing. If you want to wallow in hyperbole, that's on you. I just find wrestling at its most enjoyable when the physical confrontations themselves are rooted in some degree of believability. To bring it back to my original point; that's why I don't have a problem with a guy like Bobby Lashley saying "I'm not sure it makes sense for me to lose to this guy." I actually thought the way TK booked Miro as the monster with the weakness was perfect. I could think off other instances as well. I'm just still confounded why some folks here have so much issue with the thought that big, strong guys might have an inherent advantage in a sport (or simulated sport) where overpowering one's opponent is the name of the game. 1
username Posted April 29 Posted April 29 FWIW I think Mabel would have probably kicked Bret's ass if it ever came down to that. I forget if I mentioned this so if I am repeating myself my bad, but I think AEW should at least give Zoey Stark a look even if only on ROH. She has always had the pieces to be something, impressive athleticism and a solid scowl, there are areas she needs to work on but I think she has a decent ceiling. Also regardless of all the talk and speculation about him I think Black going to TNA is probably the best move for everybody. If he does legit have an issue laying down for folks it probably wouldn't be asked much of him there, he's a higher level name than they usually have been able to sign recently and I think it'd be interesting to see how he works as an actual top guy somewhere. They even have their own spooky corner he can chill in while rambling about stuff 2
Kevin Wilson Posted April 29 Posted April 29 As I've joked before (although its not a joke) I will only go see live wrestling if the wrestling promotion goes to one particular arena and AEW was nice enough to visit that arena for the second time for Dynamite this week. So I'll be there, Dynamite has been killer lately and per usual they are stacking the card so should be a pretty great show. 8
HarryArchieGus Posted April 29 Posted April 29 11 hours ago, tbarrie said: Geez, it's kind of omnipresent enough that it's hard to name specific examples. Like, the announcers are constantly talking them up as one of the greatest tag teams in history. Pretty much every match of theirs includes a control segment where they hit a lengthy series of unanswered moves on their opponents, and for me, it never works. Honestly, that seems bizarre to me. Granted, they don't appear to be reticent about doing jobs when appropriate. But the actual meat of their matches rarely does their opponents any favours, in my opinion. The worst of it was when they were heels who would constantly make their babyface opponents stooge for the Bucks' alleged comedy spots. (Though to be fair, I don't think they've done that in a few years - I don't recall any of that during their run as abusive EVPs or subsequent down-on-their-luck run after they lost their authority.) I'll await an actual 'dominant' example. Pivoting to commentary putting them over too hard doesn't register as something worth following up on. As for Teams having their best matches with the Bucks, I offer the prime example of Private Party. They don't have a single match anywhere near as good as the PPV match the Bucks walked them thru. Another example would be any time they get in the ring with Top Flight. Every time it happens a swell of ppl wanna get behind the Martins because they look that much better. Lesser example, but I'll thrown in for variety - the team of Takeshita/Okada. Their feuding storyline made their matches with the generally great Brodido a bit clunky. That was not the case in their Dynasty match with the Bucks a couple weeks back. Looking over their Cagematch profile there are a number of other team names that could be thrown out there. Obviously this a personal opinion, but there's certainly a consensus to support this idea not being all that 'bizarre'.
JLowe Posted April 29 Posted April 29 14 hours ago, username said: FWIW I think Mabel would have probably kicked Bret's ass if it ever came down to that. I forget if I mentioned this so if I am repeating myself my bad, but I think AEW should at least give Zoey Stark a look even if only on ROH. She has always had the pieces to be something, impressive athleticism and a solid scowl, there are areas she needs to work on but I think she has a decent ceiling. Also regardless of all the talk and speculation about him I think Black going to TNA is probably the best move for everybody. If he does legit have an issue laying down for folks it probably wouldn't be asked much of him there, he's a higher level name than they usually have been able to sign recently and I think it'd be interesting to see how he works as an actual top guy somewhere. They even have their own spooky corner he can chill in while rambling about stuff I’ve seen a few people speculate that some of the releases are back door pay cuts, assuming that the talent will sign with TNA and then WWE can use them as desired. 4
Technico Support Posted April 29 Posted April 29 16 hours ago, tbarrie said: Like, the announcers are constantly talking them up as one of the greatest tag teams in history. Pretty much every match of theirs includes a control segment where they hit a lengthy series of unanswered moves on their opponents, and for me, it never works. Addressing sentence #1: Depending on criteria, they probably are. Addressing sentence #2: here's an idea. What if "flashy bullshit" is just the Bucks' "fighting style?" Is it easier to digest then? A guy like Danielson will hit you with a bunch of stiff kicks. While the Bucks will beat your ass with intricate flippy shit and you can't do a thing about it. In kayfabe, that's their choice of offense. 3
zendragon Posted April 29 Posted April 29 (edited) Paparazzi Productions is All Elite! Bring back The Kevin Nash Invitational featuring Paul Hogan! Edited April 29 by zendragon 1
SovietShooter Posted April 29 Posted April 29 8 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said: As for Teams having their best matches with the Bucks, I offer the prime example of Private Party. They don't have a single match anywhere near as good as the PPV match the Bucks walked them thru. You can certainly make a case the Bucks carried those types of teams to their best match, but look at the teams in the same tier as the Bucks. How many of them had their best match against them? Lucha Bros for sure. You could argue FTR (although I think Briscoes/FTR were better, personally). Golden Lovers, for sure. Daniels/Kazarian? 2 1
tbarrie Posted April 29 Posted April 29 9 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said: I'll await an actual 'dominant' example. Pivoting to commentary putting them over too hard doesn't register as something worth following up on. How is that a pivot? The way the commentators talk about them is absolutely part of how the act is portrayed. 9 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said: As for Teams having their best matches with the Bucks, I offer the prime example of Private Party. They don't have a single match anywhere near as good as the PPV match the Bucks walked them thru. Another example would be any time they get in the ring with Top Flight. Every time it happens a swell of ppl wanna get behind the Martins because they look that much better. Lesser example, but I'll thrown in for variety - the team of Takeshita/Okada. Their feuding storyline made their matches with the generally great Brodido a bit clunky. That was not the case in their Dynasty match with the Bucks a couple weeks back. Looking over their Cagematch profile there are a number of other team names that could be thrown out there. Obviously this a personal opinion, but there's certainly a consensus to support this idea not being all that 'bizarre'. I think I interpreted the phrase "making their opponents look good" differently from how you intended it. My instinct is to interpret "their opponents" as the fictional characters they're facing in their fictional match. And being dominated for long stretches of the match by two characters who (to me) never come across as convincing on offense does not make those characters look good. Are the Jacksons sufficiently talented as performers that they make the performers they're working with look better? I don't know. Maybe. But I don't see the answer to that question as relevant to my opinion on the Bucks.
StevieNippz Posted April 30 Posted April 30 I'm not a big fan of the Bucks but I can buy their act as a great TEAM. They work well in tandem with frequent tags so it's easier to buy them getting some control spots on bigger guys. I think back to All In last year when they wrestled Swerve and Ospreay and the emphasis on their teamwork was the big story. I really do hate the BTE Trigger though, that move looks so soft every time they do it. They kick out of finishers too much but not as egregiously as the FTR guys. 2
stuntmanc Posted April 30 Posted April 30 Not for nothing, regarding the Bucks, it's not just the commentators who put them over as the greatest tag team in history. Most of their tag team peers and other members of various wrestling locker rooms would put them on their mount rushmore. I'm not a Bucks guy, but ill echo the sentiment, it's insane how much hate they get. 3 1
JLowe Posted April 30 Posted April 30 (edited) My personal issues with the Bucks are that they do way too fucking many super kicks, which should be big moves instead of the equivalent of say front kicks and punches, and that their match formula can be very stale, which is why the disgraced heel run worked so well for me. There is no doubt they are influential, helped define one of the modern tag team match formulas, beloved by fans, and are solid workers who (even when stale) never half-ass. Edited April 30 by JLowe 2
NoFistsJustFlips Posted April 30 Posted April 30 5 hours ago, JLowe said: they do way too fucking many super kicks, which should be big moves instead of the equivalent of say front kicks and punches Without invoking the name of Shawn Michaels can you explain why turning your foot 90 degrees makes the kick have more force? Its all wrestling and analyzing this stuff can make you go crosseyed lol. If I kick a heavy bag full force from the front, I can grate the exact same force as I can superkicking the bag. So why is one more protected than the other? Not a criticism of your take. More a jumping off point for a thought experiment. Why do people say xyz throw too many super kicks and not xyz throws too many front kicks? Its all the same thing. Only reason why people care, in my theory here at least, is that the super kick was someone's finish for a long time. 1
Sublime Posted April 30 Posted April 30 The bucks super kicks look great and are very good fit into their offense as something they can do to anyone and realistically wear them done (and quickly cause getting kicked in the head is bad for brains) idk why people hate the super kicks the kicks are important part of their matches and make sense for guys their size to use. And I say this as someone who is pretty neutral one the Bucks 5
JLowe Posted April 30 Posted April 30 2 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said: Without invoking the name of Shawn Michaels can you explain why turning your foot 90 degrees makes the kick have more force? Its all wrestling and analyzing this stuff can make you go crosseyed lol. If I kick a heavy bag full force from the front, I can grate the exact same force as I can superkicking the bag. So why is one more protected than the other? Not a criticism of your take. More a jumping off point for a thought experiment. Why do people say xyz throw too many super kicks and not xyz throws too many front kicks? Its all the same thing. Only reason why people care, in my theory here at least, is that the super kick was someone's finish for a long time. It’s in the name!! From my perspective as someone who has never done more than a single krav aga class, the way they’re delivered you’re starting from a lower point and putting more full body force into the kick. Additionally, it’s directed upwards and generally under the chin, with a longer point on contact (bottom of foot/shoe). The kind of MMA kicks where people are just throwing body shots with kicks are like jabs as opposed to a super kick, which is like an uppercut (or a crescent kick/enziguri which is a hook). I suppose I can defend it from the idea that, because they are smaller, they have no choice but to use a super kick in order to generate enough force to do any kind of damage. 4
Casey Posted April 30 Posted April 30 I wonder if people used to (still do?) get hung up on the fact that the DDT or piledriver or something aren’t “big” moves anymore and are just regular ones now. 1 1
JLowe Posted April 30 Posted April 30 52 minutes ago, Casey said: I wonder if people used to (still do?) get hung up on the fact that the DDT or piledriver or something aren’t “big” moves anymore and are just regular ones now. But they’re still usually big transition moves, like you don’t see a tag team hitting 10 pile drivers or DDTs in a match. Of course, 60s wrestling fans would be complaining about all the suplay. 1
The Green Meanie Posted April 30 Posted April 30 9 hours ago, stuntmanc said: I'm not a Bucks guy, but ill echo the sentiment, it's insane how much hate they get. I don't think it is. They're incredibly unlikable. 2
The Natural Posted May 1 Posted May 1 Tony Schiavone regards Nigel McGuinness as the best color commentator he has worked with: “Nigel is probably the best color analyst I’ve ever worked with, and I’ve worked with a lot of them. I say this because no one is prepared to do his job like Nigel McGuinness is. I know that I do not have to always get [Nigel] up to date on the storylines because I know Nigel is always prepared to do that. And that means a lot to a guy in my position. An old guy can’t remember everything. I can always lean on Nigel because he’s got these notes. That’s why I think he’s the best. I really do. I really, really enjoy working with him.” (Via What Happened When podcast) --- High praise that. 2 2
zendragon Posted May 1 Posted May 1 12 hours ago, JLowe said: But they’re still usually big transition moves, like you don’t see a tag team hitting 10 pile drivers or DDTs in a match. Of course, 60s wrestling fans would be complaining about all the suplay. Personally I think we lost the plot when Toots Mondt told guys to stop spending an hour laying around in a head lock 3 hours ago, The Natural said: Tony Schiavone regards Nigel McGuinness as the best color commentator he has worked with: “Nigel is probably the best color analyst I’ve ever worked with, and I’ve worked with a lot of them. I say this because no one is prepared to do his job like Nigel McGuinness is. I know that I do not have to always get [Nigel] up to date on the storylines because I know Nigel is always prepared to do that. And that means a lot to a guy in my position. An old guy can’t remember everything. I can always lean on Nigel because he’s got these notes. That’s why I think he’s the best. I really do. I really, really enjoy working with him.” (Via What Happened When podcast) --- High praise that. I wonder how tony ranks his work with Jesse 3 1
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