Eivion Posted January 4 Posted January 4 (edited) 9 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said: What do you think the percentage is of actual wrestling fans who think Cena's the GOAT? We know most fans who watch on TV are 50+ I'd say he's definitely ranked behind Austin, Rock, Hogan and maybe even Flair who is surprisingly well known with young people. What do you consider an actual wrestling fan? The fact that you made this distinction is why this is kind of a dead argument. Because many of us hate WWE and/or Cena for the corporate aspect we are trying to discount Cena out of hand instead of considering what he actually meant/means to the business itself & fans in general which is what the GOAT conversations are typically about unless you are looking for something more specific. Like I do hope anyone saying Cena can't be the GOAT also realizes you need to be disqualifying the likes of Danielson, Bret, Punk, etc. as well because none of them necessarily hit the levels of Austin, Hogan, Rock or Flair per say. Edited January 4 by Eivion
Eivion Posted January 4 Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Matt D said: I like Cena fine until he got PWG-y but there’s no way I’m watching super produced uber corporate 2025 WWE by choice. I did really like that MSG 2017 Reigns vs Cena match the vault dropped. What does 2025 WWE have to do with anything? No one is asking you to watch it.
Cobra Commander Posted January 4 Posted January 4 Bingo Break from April Fool’s Day 1994 (with local Ball’more commercials) Host Bob Marella, generic daytime show cohost, bingo master Sean Mooney, psychics that include a Rosetti, Francois Petit, Bobby Heenan showing up, ads for a radio station that plays Glenn Miller in 1994, bingo numbers! In case you wanted to see life where Gorilla Monsoon hosted a local version of Regis and Kathie Lee that was centered around bingo
Technico Support Posted January 4 Posted January 4 Cena’s not even the GOAT in one category. Work? Promos? Charisma? Money drawn? Meaning the most to his company? Pick any category outside “best Turkish hair transplant” and 10 people more knowledgeable than me on this board could come up with at least five wrestlers who were better. Cena is only the GOAT to fans who were little kids during his heyday and to the carnies who made money off this retirement tour. It’s a sham; Cena isn’t even in the discussion. 3
Stefanie Sparkleface Posted January 4 Posted January 4 This is becoming a "is a hot dog a sandwich" debate, and there's no right answer because it all comes down to personal opinion (never mind that everything in terms of language is made up, and everything in terms of art is subjective). 4
Sublime Posted January 4 Posted January 4 Cena’s run on top eclipses everyone since Sheiky Baby beat backlund. He was the guy for a very long time so there are definitely people who would say he is in GOAT territory especially younger people who grew up with him being the man most of their lives 2
NoFistsJustFlips Posted January 4 Posted January 4 9 hours ago, Eivion said: What does 2025 WWE have to do with anything? No one is asking you to watch it. I don't understand the motive of critiquing a person's viewing preferences, but only when it's anti-WWE. Not gonna lie, the Houston TX location and the constant WWE defending... for a very long time I thought you were Bruce Prichard. Will probably give you a chuckle hearing that, but my point is *that* is how much of a stan for WWE you come off as. Is someone offering critiques and unflattering WWE takes? Here comes Eivion to defend his corporate overlords lol. I's not saying that as a way to take a shot at your or anything. Sometimes when I'm not self aware about something and I get told about it, makes me a little more thoughtful in how I decide to respond. But you're obviously free to like what you like. My hope is that maybe you dial it down a notch or two? Make it seem less like you're on the clock defending your employer and more like a multifaced human who has opinions that ebb & flow.
The Green Meanie Posted January 4 Posted January 4 (edited) 6 hours ago, Cobra Commander said: Bingo Break from April Fool’s Day 1994 (with local Ball’more commercials) Host Bob Marella, generic daytime show cohost, bingo master Sean Mooney, psychics that include a Rosetti, Francois Petit, Bobby Heenan showing up, ads for a radio station that plays Glenn Miller in 1994, bingo numbers! In case you wanted to see life where Gorilla Monsoon hosted a local version of Regis and Kathie Lee that was centered around bingo Gorilla, Heenan, and Sean Mooney all had to act like they didn't already know each other. Heenan actually has a small blooper here, he said "I'm with the WW.....WCW." 1 hour ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said: This is becoming a "is a hot dog a sandwich" debate, and there's no right answer because it all comes down to personal opinion (never mind that everything in terms of language is made up, and everything in terms of art is subjective). I'd rather have that debate. Edited January 4 by The Green Meanie
Ramo2653 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 21 hours ago, Curt McGirt said: Now I'm mad. WWE STILL hasn't put up Mercedes vs. Meiko Satomura from the Mae Young Classic from 2018. That match was an absolute stunner. 16:27 is the timestamp for the Mercedes match but this is a good video of her matches in WWE. Regarding Cena, this is a rehash of the discussion a few days before his retirement match but I have a hard time believing anyone on this board would think Cena is their top guy just based on the demographics. I'd have to assume this board skews older and the tastes are very broad so the chosen one WWE ace of the mid 2000s through the 2010s isn't going to be preferred. But yeah there are fans in their 20s who like WWE and Cena is their guy, or kids who think that Roman is the best. It happens. 4 2
Nice Guy Eddie Posted January 4 Posted January 4 3 hours ago, Technico Support said: Cena’s not even the GOAT in one category. Work? Promos? Charisma? Money drawn? Meaning the most to his company? Pick any category outside “best Turkish hair transplant” and 10 people more knowledgeable than me on this board could come up with at least five wrestlers who were better. Cena is only the GOAT to fans who were little kids during his heyday and to the carnies who made money off this retirement tour. It’s a sham; Cena isn’t even in the discussion. MJF has got Cena beat on that one. 5
Curt McGirt Posted January 4 Posted January 4 Yeah that was still as great as I remember it. "Snug" would be really the word I would use, even over "stiff", to describe it. They told what they had to say in a limited time span with some great reversals in dominance and you couldn't question a single thing. Martinez tried to grind her down and she made a quick and decisive comeback after, initially, some practically brutal mat wrestling. Love it. The only thing that gets me is, why does "strong style" have to define any time a fucking Japanese wrestler wrestles in America? We don't say "King's Road" every time. The wrestling nerd in me seethes when I hear it.
AxB Posted January 4 Posted January 4 (edited) Because 'Strong Style' is such a nebulous term, it can mean anything you want it to. A lot of people use the term Strong Style without having the first clue what it originally meant, they think it just means "We work stiff sometimes I guess". Or "This match might be a bit better than the other matches on this indie show". Like, when Tyler Bate, Trent Severn and Pete Dunne called themselves "British Strong Style", it wasn't because any of them was in any way the heir to Inokiism. It was because they thought it sounded cool. As far as "Is Cena the GOAT", if the main lens by which you view wrestling is "Mainstream American Wrestling after 2003", he's clearly a better candidate than Randy Orton, and has a longevity and consistency that outstrip anything done by Edge, Big Show, Jericho, Mark Henry, Batista, Triple H, Kane, Undertaker, Lesnar, Layfield, Reigns, Rollins, Hogan, Flair... I mean, Eddy Guerrero is clearly better at everything (in that era), but his career started over a decade before anyone knew who Cena was. Brian Danielson is better in-ring, but in terms of being a total package by WWE metrics, Cena would be ahead of him. Samoa Joe would be ahead of Cena, if you watched ROH and TNA as well as WWE, and not many Cenaphiles would have done that. Same for Styles, Angle and Sting (except for the ROH aspect). Anyone taking a longer or wider view of wrestling would start to see a lot of better qualified wrestlers for Greatest of all Time status. And a lot of the guys on my "Not better than Cena" list would pass Cena, with a longer or wider view. Edited January 4 by AxB 3
Eivion Posted January 4 Posted January 4 3 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said: I don't understand the motive of critiquing a person's viewing preferences, but only when it's anti-WWE. Not gonna lie, the Houston TX location and the constant WWE defending... for a very long time I thought you were Bruce Prichard. Will probably give you a chuckle hearing that, but my point is *that* is how much of a stan for WWE you come off as. Is someone offering critiques and unflattering WWE takes? Here comes Eivion to defend his corporate overlords lol. I's not saying that as a way to take a shot at your or anything. Sometimes when I'm not self aware about something and I get told about it, makes me a little more thoughtful in how I decide to respond. But you're obviously free to like what you like. My hope is that maybe you dial it down a notch or two? Make it seem less like you're on the clock defending your employer and more like a multifaced human who has opinions that ebb & flow. Except I'm not critiquing anyone's viewing preferences. I was befuddled as to why he felt the need to bring up not wanting to watch 2025 WWE when it was literally not in the discussion. I know I come across as a WWE defender sometimes. I just also know better because I critique it regularly. Do you honestly think I'm defending WWE more than others here defend their favorites or just generally shit on WWE? I don't think I remotely come close. I generally have tried to shut the fuck up about it because I know its a pointless argument on this board, but sometimes when I see someone entering close to vitriol levels of dislike it annoys me enough to speak up. Also please don't ever fucking think of me as Prichard again. The man is 20+ years older & a racist white dude from what I have seen from wrestlers' interviews. Like I assume you weren't being completely serious, but it really is fucking insulting. 3
odessasteps Posted January 4 Posted January 4 Since I don’t watch it, I’m just happy you post mostly complete TV results so I don’t have to go looking for them, even if I don’t know almost all the people in NXT with their silly names. 3 2
Technico Support Posted January 4 Posted January 4 (edited) NXT apparently has a Ricky Saints and a Ricky Smokes. File that under “shit that wouldn’t fly when Vince was around.” Edited January 4 by Technico Support 1 1
Eivion Posted January 4 Posted January 4 7 minutes ago, Technico Support said: NXT apparently has a Ricky Saints and a Ricky Smokes. File that under “shit that wouldn’t fly when Vince was around.” Its sad, I watch NXT, but had no idea who the fuck Ricky Smokes was until you mentioned him here. And it has been nice to see them less afraid of people sharing the same first or last names. 1
Log Posted January 4 Posted January 4 2025 WWE came up because people were talking about Cena’s retirement run which took place in (checks notes) 2025 WWE. 3 3 2
Nice Guy Eddie Posted January 4 Posted January 4 13 minutes ago, Technico Support said: NXT apparently has a Ricky Saints and a Ricky Smokes. File that under “shit that wouldn’t fly when Vince was around.” I know Ricky Saints is Ricky Starks. However, I have no idea who Ricky Smokes is. The first person that comes to my mind is ROH alumni and Homicide cornerman, Julius Smokes. 1
Eivion Posted January 4 Posted January 4 4 minutes ago, Log said: 2025 WWE came up because people were talking about Cena’s retirement run which took place in (checks notes) 2025 WWE. You make a point. I read the posts so far apart and at late night I disconnected them. My apologies to Matt and everyone for that bit. 4
Eivion Posted January 4 Posted January 4 1 minute ago, Nice Guy Eddie said: I know Ricky Saints is Ricky Starks. However, I have no idea who Ricky Smokes is. The first person that comes to my mind is ROH alumni and Homicide cornerman, Julius Smokes. Smokes is part of a tag team called Swipe Right and in a faction called Vanity Project. They are decent from what I have caught. I just haven't learned any of their names since they are on Evolve more than NXT. 1
Ramo2653 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 I've seen Ricky Smokes on NXT a few times and him and his crew have the most punchable faces so they're great heels. Much like how I think Jevon Evans is a great example of a GenZ babyface, Vanity Project is a great example of GenZ heels. They took a world class beatdown on NXT this past week too. 2
Ramo2653 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 2 hours ago, Curt McGirt said: Yeah that was still as great as I remember it. "Snug" would be really the word I would use, even over "stiff", to describe it. They told what they had to say in a limited time span with some great reversals in dominance and you couldn't question a single thing. Martinez tried to grind her down and she made a quick and decisive comeback after, initially, some practically brutal mat wrestling. Love it. The only thing that gets me is, why does "strong style" have to define any time a fucking Japanese wrestler wrestles in America? We don't say "King's Road" every time. The wrestling nerd in me seethes when I hear it. The "Strong Style" misuse is hilarious because I'm pretty sure it started because Inoki wanted to prove pro wrestling's worth versus other combat styles so it's just stating that pro wrestling is the best combat style so it being co-opted by people either just using it as a general term for Japanese wrestlers so indie guys who want to work stiff is something!
Nice Guy Eddie Posted January 4 Posted January 4 16 minutes ago, Ramo2653 said: I've seen Ricky Smokes on NXT a few times and him and his crew have the most punchable faces so they're great heels. Much like how I think Jevon Evans is a great example of a GenZ babyface, Vanity Project is a great example of GenZ heels. They took a world class beatdown on NXT this past week too. Pardon me for showing my age, but what the hell makes one a GenZ babyface or a GenZ heel? 1
NoFistsJustFlips Posted January 4 Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Eivion said: I know I come across as a WWE defender sometimes. I just also know better because I critique it regularly. Do you honestly think I'm defending WWE more than others here defend their favorites or just generally shit on WWE? I don't think I remotely come close. I generally have tried to shut the fuck up about it because I know its a pointless argument on this board, but sometimes when I see someone entering close to vitriol levels of dislike it annoys me enough to speak up. I wont spend too much time on it because you showed self awareness and realized you kinda did do that this time (which I appreciate and respect you for admitting it when you saw it). But just to answer the question the reason why I said something is I notice this scenario happening a lot. There's a stray negative comment about WWE that is pretty innocuous but relevant to the subject and you tend to interpret that as people being mean spirited and talking about WWE when they arent relevant to the subject. We were talking about Cena being a GOAT or not and Matt brought up not being the best to discuss it because he didnt see any of the retirement stuff because of WWE production. Totally fair thing to say in regards to the subject. We all have things that grind our gears. The Bruce Prichard thing was just a joke because of the Houston thing and the constant relentless pro WWE spin. But again respect how you responded to all this. So its all good.
Recommended Posts