Elsalvajeloco Posted January 2 Posted January 2 I know she didn't have the look exactly they wanted, but she should have been signed a couple decades ago and it's weird they signed her that late in her career and had her in NXT.
Cobra Commander Posted January 2 Posted January 2 43 minutes ago, odessasteps said: For a second, I read that as the other Mercedes. pretty sure the AEW social media has mixed up the two at least once
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 2 Posted January 2 50 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said: pretty sure the AEW social media has mixed up the two at least once If they were on the main roster with the same name in WWE, one would be renamed Jaguar or Lexus or Coupe de Ville. Commentators cannot remember people with the same first name even though WWF in the late 90s had like a half dozen dudes named Steve. 1 3
Eivion Posted January 2 Posted January 2 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: I know she didn't have the look exactly they wanted, but she should have been signed a couple decades ago and it's weird they signed her that late in her career and had her in NXT. It really isn't. WWE had that model look they wanted, and they were rarely ever willing to break it until NXT brought up a successful women's division. They were well aware of her as she did occasional Heat and/or Velocity matches. Edited January 2 by Eivion
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 2 Posted January 2 Just now, Eivion said: It really isn't. WWE had that model look they wanted, and they were rarely ever willing to break it until NXT brought up a successful women's division. They were willing to make exceptions as Jazz and Molly Holly weren't exactly pinups. Prior to being Mickie James, Alexis Laree was more noted for being a wrestler. Send to her ass to OVW and then when she gets to the main roster, you can doll her like the rest of em. It ain't that hard cause they've done it before.
zendragon Posted January 2 Posted January 2 52 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: I know she didn't have the look exactly they wanted, but she should have been signed a couple decades ago and it's weird they signed her that late in her career and had her in NXT. She was part of the WWE v AEW arms race of signing anyone of not one the indys so it makes sense in that regard 48 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: If they were on the main roster with the same name in WWE, one would be renamed Jaguar or Lexus or Coupe de Ville. Commentators cannot remember people with same first name even though WWF in the late 90s had like a half dozen dudes named Steve. I vote for Buick Makayne Williams, theme music ready to go
Eivion Posted January 2 Posted January 2 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: They were willing to make exceptions as Jazz and Molly Holly weren't exactly pinups. Prior to being Mickie James, Alexis Laree was more noted for being a wrestler. Send to her ass to OVW and then when she gets to the main roster, you can doll her like the rest of em. It ain't that hard cause they've done it before. Molly had enough of the look to fit the mold. So did Mickie. I thought Jazz was an ECW pick up from when they bought it? I assume she was kept as the division was getting its restart around that time. There was never a great time for Mercedes to be picked up. Edited January 2 by Eivion
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 2 Posted January 2 11 minutes ago, zendragon said: She was part of the WWE v AEW arms race of signing anyone of not one the indys so it makes sense in that regard I vote for Buick Makayne Williams, theme music ready to go It's funny cause prior to us knowing she was kinda cuckoo for Coco Coco Puffs, signing Sarah Stock as wrestler made as much sense as signing Mercedes as wrestler. They're about the same age. So you make Sara Del Ray as a coach as well, but you sign Zelina Vega (who sneakily has been in the business for a while) who tagged with Sarah in TNA as a wrestler and Mercedes as a wrestler. I cannot figure all of that out. And much later on they unofficially put in age limit for their signings. Age ain't nothing but a number til it is something. But yeah, they went overboard with those signings to the point where it became untenable. 1
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 2 Posted January 2 11 minutes ago, Eivion said: Molly had enough of the look to fit the mold. Dude, they had a storyline where they pointed out how "unattractive" and "fat" she was. Quote So did Mickie. She was tomboy as hell. Same with Jillian Hall prior to the mole disaster and failed American Idol audition gimmick. They look like random women you would see in your supermarket. Now, a Beth Phoenix is a different story cause she was the old school 1960s pinup but more in the fitness model way. That was more their speed even though she was more muscular.
zendragon Posted January 2 Posted January 2 Weirdly both Molly and Mickie would be considered much more attractive to day... ahead of the ahem curve... 1
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 2 Posted January 2 And oh, Jazz came in cause they needed someone in the division. She wasn't brought over in the ECW deal. 1
Eivion Posted January 2 Posted January 2 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: Dude, they had a storyline where they pointed out how "unattractive" and "fat" she was. She was tomboy as hell. Same with Jillian Hall prior to the mole disaster and failed American Idol audition gimmick. They look like random women you would see in your supermarket. Now, a Beth Phoenix is a different story cause she was the old school 1960s pinup but more in the fitness model way. That was more their speed even though she was more muscular. Neither of those shitty stories with Molly & Mickie is how they started in the company. That is shit they did with them later when they had the "audacity" to gain a little weight as they aged. Not sure what you mean about Mickie as tomboy. Maybe she had the attitude of one, but she fit the look they wanted well enough. Edit: I feel we are going too far into the looks creepy fucks in WWE management wanted back then. The point is Mercedes never really had what they wanted and likely only gained the chance to get in once that bs was de-emphasized a few years into NXT. Edit 2: Actually i'm curious as to why Mercedes never joined TNA. Feels like she could have achieved a good amount there if she had. Edited January 3 by Eivion
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 3 Posted January 3 3 minutes ago, zendragon said: Weirdly both Molly and Mickie would be considered much more attractive to day... ahead of the ahem curve... Shit, they could have done what they did the past several years way before what they did. I am not saying she would be the next Lita in terms of popularity, but why not have a Mercedes Martinez in addition to a Shelly Martinez and Melina. You have three Latinas who look different with different bodies as oppose to three redheads or three blondes with the same look facially, body wise, and personality. You can do that over several races and ethnicities and different identities and grab EVERYONE, which you know...reflects pro wrestling's actual fanbase. Instead they went the route of, "hey, look at Vickie Guerrero, she's fat and she's gross and wears granny panties." 1
zendragon Posted January 3 Posted January 3 I think this goes back to the story about Vince having to be told about Asian porn sites by JR to get him to understand people have tastes beyond bottle blonds with bold on tits
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 3 Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Eivion said: Neither of those shitty stories with Molly & Mickie is how they started in the company. That is shit they did with them later when they had the "audacity" to gain a little weight as they aged. Molly wasn't the prototypical diva though, which was definitely a change from what they had been doing and the direction they were going. She was just a good ole Holly cousin and sort of the Marilyn Munster to what Crash and Hardcore. Now juxtapose that with Victoria who came in and spent the first 3-5 months of her WWE on camera career as one of Godfather's hos and then being caught by Chyna in the shower with Eddie during the Mamacita and Latino Heat storyline. Like that's how women were viewed then. 1 hour ago, Eivion said: Edit 2: Actually i'm curious as to why Mercedes never joined TNA. Feels like she could have achieved a good amount there if she had. I think TNA/Impact had a roster spot limit for Knockouts especially once they got to Spike. I think that the limit for women on their roster was probably 7 and like 10 max and the Beautiful People at one given time took up four of those spots. That only leaves 4-6 spots left. People give them props for being ahead of the game and being progressive, but they were clearly obsessed with accounting for the gap with WWE with male signees rather than female signees. By the time they signed more females or at least changed it up a little, they had fallen a lot of as a company. 1
zendragon Posted January 3 Posted January 3 42 minutes ago, Eivion said: Neither of those shitty stories with Molly & Mickie is how they started in the company. That is shit they did with them later when they had the "audacity" to gain a little weight as they aged. Not sure what you mean about Mickie as tomboy. Maybe she had the attitude of one, but she fit the look they wanted well enough. Edit: I feel we are going too far into the looks creepy fucks in WWE management wanted back then. The point is Mercedes never really had what they wanted and likely only gained the chance to get in once that bs was de-emphasized a few years into NXT. Edit 2: Actually i'm curious as to why Mercedes never joined TNA. Feels like she could have achieved a good amount there if she had. The thing is I'm pretty sure they where both in their 20 when they got the "Molly has a Fat Ass" and "Piggy James" storylines. It's just that they weren't rail thin like a lot of female celebrities. The Mickie is fat stuff apparently came from WWE offices having that view of her, personally I couldn't believe how good she looked when she showed up in the first women's royale rumble 1
Eivion Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: Molly wasn't the prototypical diva though, which was definitely a change from what they had been doing and the direction they were going. She was just a good ole Holly cousin and sort of the Lily Monster to what Crash and Hardcore. Now juxtapose that with Victoria who came in and spent the first 3-5 months of her WWE on camera career as one of Godfather's hos and then being caught by Chyna in the shower with Eddie during the Mamacita and Latino Heat storyline. Like that's how women were viewed then. Could wrong as its been so long since I watched any of that, but I recall Molly being generally considered innocent & attractive and being it thought odd that she was supposedly related to the Crash & Hardcore from the announcer POV. Also I feel like this is missing my point. I'm not saying WWE never picked up non-model types or even complete opposite of models. I was just saying that it was more of a rarity than not, and that is likely why Mercedes didn't make it in until after her prime years. Frankly, I was always disappointed as I wanted her in back in late 2000s. She always felt like one of the better women on the indy scene to me. Edited January 3 by Eivion 1
Niners Fan in CT Posted January 3 Posted January 3 Not to be Cibernetico or whatever this early into the new year but I don't see anything wrong with Mercedes Martinez looks? WWE is just weird and always has been. 9
Niners Fan in CT Posted January 3 Posted January 3 What changed with WWE's production values from WrestleMania 2 to WrestleMania III? Actually, I think there might have been even more changes between WrestleMania III and WrestleMania IV? But it's almost like the production values became top notch overnight. This is something I've always noticed.
Cobra Commander Posted January 3 Posted January 3 I could see the WWE decisionmaker dudes of the 2000s/2010s thinking that women with tattoos up their arms are not attractive, seeing as they didn't know about Asian women being considered attractive until Gail Kim
odessasteps Posted January 3 Posted January 3 I’d rather see they induct Leilani Kai and Judy Martin for their actual WWF careers before starting on people outside the company’s history. 3
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 3 Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Eivion said: Could wrong as its been so long since I watched any of that, but I recall Molly being generally considered innocent & attractive and being it thought odd that she was supposedly related to the Crash & Hardcore from the announcer POV. Molly was the (at least early on) was the one who wasn't the dumbass/crass brute and was just the happy-go-lucky kinda plain Jane. However, because she was so straight laced and normal, she was the "weirdo" of the bunch cause they were so over the top. Again, the niece from the Munsters. They never really talked about her looks unless it was something that required it, but she managed to avoid a lot of the bra and panties stuff and diva gimmick stuff until she was no longer attached with the other Hollys. 1 hour ago, Eivion said: Also I feel like this is missing my point. I'm not saying WWE never picked up non-model types or even complete opposite of models. I was just saying that it was more of a rarity than not, and that is likely why Mercedes didn't make it in until after her prime years. Frankly, I was always disappointed as I wanted her in back in late 2000s. She always felt like one of the better women on the indy scene to me. No, I get the point you're trying to make and not even really disagreeing with it. However, I would not go as far as saying it was a rarity as much part of a misconception. They CLEARLY knew they needed real workers/ringers to work with the Lita and Trish types (though Lita technically started off as a worker prior to even ECW as Miss Congeniality) to help them get better. It was the only way that a women's division would work to even a half way decent level. That's how you got a Jazz, Ivory, Molly, Jacqueline, and Tori. Problem is Tori, who wasn't even that good in AJW as Terri Power, somehow forgot EVERYTHING she knew about wrestling between working in Japan and signing with WWF. Ivory, who was the most experienced, still wrestled very much like the 80s women's pro wrestling style. So we got a lot of styles clashing and bowling shoe ugly matches at least with the matches that went any time. In addition, they felt they could train women to be at least good enough where it didn't matter the experience. However, they knew it would take time. They just ran hot and cold with signing them to where it would make a bit of difference to the quality of matches. Every now and again, you would hear or see a story about them getting serious about signing female talent especially after a string of really bad matches on TV. It just never really manifested itself cause I don't think they had much invested in the division yet. They had their stars and once they got good enough, Ivory, Jazz, and Molly all got shown the door. Victoria became a utility comedy character the equivalent of a 9-hole hitter the rest of her WWE tenure. New ringers came in to assist the rest of the women they wanted to make stars. What happened ultimately and what compounded the issue is they started running Diva Searches and signing random women to be the Brooke Burke of the WWE when had the personality of a parked car. At some point, they were going to need real workers beyond the ones who got half decent or even really good like a Victoria coming from a non wrestling background to account for so many non workers. They felt compelled to do something with those women, and it got to a point where they just didn't put some of them in the ring. For every Eve Torres or Michelle McCool, you had an Ashley Massaro who god rest her soul was beyond her depth in a wrestling ring. They put them in terrible spots to make something out of nothing. THAT is where you needed some of the women who had been killing it on the indies. Now that said, I remember hearing good things about Nikita/Katie Lea and then one of the first things they do is put her in a incest storyline with a guy who failed to get over as a pirate swinging from the Smackdown set. I definitely get that a lot of these women would have been sabotaged from the word go. However, we would have had the success stories like a Mickie James or a Beth Phoenix or Natalya. Some of them would have broken through if given a chance. 2
Eivion Posted January 3 Posted January 3 6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: Problem is Tori, who wasn't even that good in AJW as Terri Power, somehow forgot EVERYTHING she knew about wrestling between working in Japan and signing with WWF. It was weird watching AJW and seeing Tori start to show some decent competence towards the end of her run. How the fuck did she manage to forget everything? It was damn near night & day. Like the only match of hers in WWE I recall worth watching is a certain NSFW hardcore match with Ivory. That was a surprisingly brutal brawl.
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 3 Posted January 3 57 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said: What changed with WWE's production values from WrestleMania 2 to WrestleMania III? Actually, I think there might have been even more changes between WrestleMania III and WrestleMania IV? But it's almost like the production values became top notch overnight. This is something I've always noticed. I am going to safely assume harnessing the NBC/Dick Ebersol relationship and having a greater understanding of what real, innovative TV production is. I remember listening to one of Conrad's podcasts with David Crockett on there, and he talked about how simple their production setup and how he thought that was what it should be at the time. He was brutally honest about how it was probably too simple even for that day and age. You can tell wrestling was a bit behind the times. Watch WrestleMania I where IIRC Gene Okerlund is doing an interview in the tunnel with someone after the first match I believe and Matt Borne walks DIRECTLY in the shot and does the "OH FUCKING SHIT" and looks like a deer in a headlights before turning around. That would NEVER happened as time passed as the way the interview in the tunnel was shot was ugly, and Borne walking into the shot was terrible and amateurish given the scale of what WWF was doing. That's why it is so distracting watching the early Manias all in a row. You notice immediately the climb in production quality, and it kinda pulls you out of it a little.
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 3 Posted January 3 17 minutes ago, Eivion said: It was weird watching AJW and seeing Tori start to show some decent competence towards the end of her run. How the fuck did she manage to forget everything? It was damn near night & day. Like the only match of hers in WWE I recall worth watching is a certain NSFW hardcore match with Ivory. That was a surprisingly brutal brawl. Didn't have the muscle memory? And I say that non ironically cause she lost most of the muscle she had as Terri Power. That is why I am shocked they never signed Reggie Bennett. She, unlike Nicole Bass, could work and looked scary though she was way more muscular prior to going to Japan. She, unlike Terri Power/Tori, was still having decent matches around then (late 90s/early 2000s). IMO She would have been a better fit for whatever the hell the Bertha Faye gimmick was suppose to be though she probably wouldn't be "fat" or "gross" enough for Vince. Monster Ripper just didn't have it anymore, and apparently, she also didn't get along with Harvey Wippleman either. My little conspiracy theory is that maybe Reggie almost killing Terry Funk on a powerbomb spot at Barely Legal probably didn't do her any favors. That and Chigusa Nagayo kinda semi shot on her/didn't cooperate that much with her at that Dome show probably feeling she deserved a bigger named opponent for her comeback and the match was pretty bad as a result. With Alundra Blayze/Madusa dropping the WWF title to Bull on that same show, they probably had scouts there and that definitely wouldn't have impressed them one bit. 3
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