WWE TV - 12/8 - 12/14/2025 - His Time Is Up, Your Time Is Now

[Eivion]

11 minutes ago, Hamhock said:

Regardless of feelings on whether the tap-out was the right call or not, tomorrow’s Raw had better start with Cena’s music, followed by Gunther entering wearing a mock Cena t-shirt that says “GIVE UP”; ordering Stu the cameraman to methodically walk with him down the aisle, etc.

This would be the greatest follow up and I am now sad it won't happen.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

2 hours ago, Eivion said:

Cena was treated with reverence for at least half of his career in WWE. And he was still treated fine this past year. The retirement tour just wasn't what some hoped for booking wise.  If they tried to wring every bit of profit out of it him I'm pretty sure he would have appeared and wrestled a lot more.

 

All of this is true. But let me show you a pattern to demonstrate my point of going out on your back not really helping the person who beats you by giving them a rub.

-Flair retired by Michaels (didn't need it).
-Michaels retired by The Undertaker (didn't need it)
-Angle retired by Corbin (a case where it could have helped, but it didnt)
-Batista retired by Triple H (didn't need it)
-Goldberg retired by Gunther (didn't need it)
-Cena retired by Gunther (didn't need it)
-The Streak ended by Brock (didn't need it)

Do you see why I don't think it's such a bad idea for some of these guys to get to win in their last match and give the crowd a feel good moment? Just follow me here. If Cena wins last night and the roster pours out and you play the video exactly the same, the audience is going ape shit with cheers and chants sending the man off in a moment viewers would remember forever. Does any of that *hurt* Gunther? In my opinion it doesn't. Does that reward your audience? Absolutely. When the last reaction of the night is chanting you fucked up at the booker, and not going ape shit with cheers for Cena, you've messed up.

They're not going to all of a sudden go bankrupt because of this decision or anything. But it's a consistent pattern that they prefer to troll their audience in important moments instead of reward them and give them feel good endings for these icons. WWE in a nutshell. "We broke another gate record! Profits on profits on profits! Shut up marks you're gonna keep watching, eat a dick!" Just tiresome as fuck to me.

[Cobra Commander]

Japan retiring guys with six man tag team matches might actually make more sense than how it's done in this country. At least fans would have been happier with a match where Cena mostly stood on the apron and then hit his moves for the win.

Bret Hart had that kind of run in 2010/11 and his final match was 3 minutes long on a RAW (Hart and John Cena vs ADR/Ricardo) after a stretch of six man tags with Bret and the Hart Dynasty in Europe

[Eivion]

24 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

All of this is true. But let me show you a pattern to demonstrate my point of going out on your back not really helping the person who beats you by giving them a rub.

-Flair retired by Michaels (didn't need it).
-Michaels retired by The Undertaker (didn't need it)
-Angle retired by Corbin (a case where it could have helped, but it didnt)
-Batista retired by Triple H (didn't need it)
-Goldberg retired by Gunther (didn't need it)

Here is the issue with this. No one complained about any of these aside from Angle. And that particular one was an issue of who he lost to opposed to Angle losing. Everyone including Angle himself wanted it to be Chad Gable.

24 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

They're not going to all of a sudden go bankrupt because of this decision or anything. But it's a consistent pattern that they prefer to troll their audience in important moments instead of reward them and give them feel good endings for these icons. WWE in a nutshell. "We broke another gate record! Profits on profits on profits! Shut up marks you're gonna keep watching, eat a dick!" Just tiresome as fuck to me.

And this goes to crux of why you're argument is kind of poor. Your issue seems to have less to do with Cena's retirement and more about your overall feelings towards WWE. 

Edited December 14, 2025 by Eivion

[Sublime]

The smile was a fourth wall moment, it was the pass out moment but rather than passing out he stopped being John Cena the wrestler and went to being John Cena he let us know this is over for me/us now, Im not a wrestler any more and tapped out. 

[peterien]

 

31 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

All of this is true. But let me show you a pattern to demonstrate my point of going out on your back not really helping the person who beats you by giving them a rub.

-Flair retired by Michaels (didn't need it).
-Michaels retired by The Undertaker (didn't need it)
-Angle retired by Corbin (a case where it could have helped, but it didnt)
-Batista retired by Triple H (didn't need it)
-Goldberg retired by Gunther (didn't need it)
-Cena retired by Gunther (didn't need it)
-The Streak ended by Brock (didn't need it)

Do you see why I don't think it's such a bad idea for some of these guys to get to win in their last match and give the crowd a feel good moment? Just follow me here. If Cena wins last night and the roster pours out and you play the video exactly the same, the audience is going ape shit with cheers and chants sending the man off in a moment viewers would remember forever. Does any of that *hurt* Gunther? In my opinion it doesn't. Does that reward your audience? Absolutely. When the last reaction of the night is chanting you fucked up at the booker, and not going ape shit with cheers for Cena, you've messed up.

They're not going to all of a sudden go bankrupt because of this decision or anything. But it's a consistent pattern that they prefer to troll their audience in important moments instead of reward them and give them feel good endings for these icons. WWE in a nutshell. "We broke another gate record! Profits on profits on profits! Shut up marks you're gonna keep watching, eat a dick!" Just tiresome as fuck to me.

It’s not a troll. Not even close. The end was more than likely Cenas call, Cena has had his moments with crowds throughout this farewell run.

Cena winning means nothing going forward, Gunther winning gives them potential to start another story, maybe it does maybe it doesn’t. 

[Gorman]

I wonder if any of the fans in DC were in attendance for the Hogan-Sting fiasco at Starrcade 97, Nash ending Goldberg's streak and winning the WCW title at Starrcade 98, and Cena giving up on Saturday Night's Main Event.

[RazorbladeKiss87]

I feel like Cena definitely came up with the finish. The man probably was envisioning it as this dramatic moment for John Cena, the character. The man who's given everything finally decides to end things on his terms. Cinema. 

[Curt McGirt]

Meltzer will probably come along with "Cena booked it" any day now.

The truth is... we're kind of all correct? Like no matter how you slice it your opinion is kinda solid about how they played this. That feels really weird to say.

Anyway, if they don't do some kind of Wagner version of the Cena theme for GUNTHER then they missed the boat.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

1 hour ago, Eivion said:

And this goes to crux of why you're argument is kind of poor. Your issue seems to have less to do with Cena's retirement and more about your overall feelings towards WWE. 

It's more so the mind set of higher ups in WWE that is my issue. Cena's retirement is a symptom of that but not the root issue.

Correct none of the workers except Angle complained about how they went out. Some specifically requested it the way it went down (like Batista). What I'm saying is the pattern of going out on your back is tired. Seeing the same thing over and over is tedious. This was the one that made the most sense for the guy to win on the way out. I'm just tired of all the downer finishes, but more so than the finishes being downers it's the smug too fucking bad reaction from the higher ups (Triple H mocking my friend Mark, the smug laugh when he embraced Cena, etc).

I have no doubt Cena requested it exactly as it went down. What I'm looking for is WWE to step and say listen John it's not the 70s anymore. The territory doesn't need you to "make" anyone on the way out, we can do that fo ourselves just fine. Let's "make" the fan's year by giving them an unexpected happy moment to celebrate you as you exit (ala Sting, the best retirement run in wrestling history in my opinion).

Again it's not Cena losing his last match (or even tapping) that has me riled up. What has me riled up is the lack of story, the lack of character development, the lack of respect for your fans, it's the totality of what they presented on the platter. I'm tired of shit sandwiches. Would have been nice to get a steak. If you want Cena to lose, if you want his last moment to be finally tapping, then put the narrative work in to make it satisfying. But why put effort into any of this right record profits blah blah blah.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Does Cody even have a relationship with John Cena?  

Edit: I will say,  I loved the interactions Cody had with Gunther a few years ago at the Rumble.  That would be a great Mania feud. 

Edited December 14, 2025 by Niners Fan in CT

[Niners Fan in CT]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

The smile was a fourth wall moment, it was the pass out moment but rather than passing out he stopped being John Cena the wrestler and went to being John Cena he let us know this is over for me/us now, Im not a wrestler any more and tapped out. 

Shouldn't Cena even in retirement be preaching "Never Give Up" ?  

[Eivion]

21 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

It's more so the mind set of higher ups in WWE that is my issue. Cena's retirement is a symptom of that but not the root issue.

Correct none of the workers except Angle complained about how they went out. Some specifically requested it the way it went down (like Batista). What I'm saying is the pattern of going out on your back is tired. Seeing the same thing over and over is tedious. This was the one that made the most sense for the guy to win on the way out. I'm just tired of all the downer finishes, but more so than the finishes being downers it's the smug too fucking bad reaction from the higher ups (Triple H mocking my friend Mark, the smug laugh when he embraced Cena, etc).

I have no doubt Cena requested it exactly as it went down. What I'm looking for is WWE to step and say listen John it's not the 70s anymore. The territory doesn't need you to "make" anyone on the way out, we can do that fo ourselves just fine. Let's "make" the fan's year by giving them an unexpected happy moment to celebrate you as you exit (ala Sting, the best retirement run in wrestling history in my opinion).

Again it's not Cena losing his last match (or even tapping) that has me riled up. What has me riled up is the lack of story, the lack of character development, the lack of respect for your fans, it's the totality of what they presented on the platter. I'm tired of shit sandwiches. Would have been nice to get a steak. If you want Cena to lose, if you want his last moment to be finally tapping, then put the narrative work in to make it satisfying. But why put effort into any of this right record profits blah blah blah.

Even the fans were basically ok with all of those retirements (again sans Angle), not just the wrestlers. That is why taking them into your argument doesn't really work. Its fine if you dislike WWE and are mad at the higher ups, but this really isn't something you should be taking into you general beefs with the company when it more or less made sense and was giving Cena what he wanted after giving so much to the company and fans for two decades. It just rings hollow. Like with exception of Niners and Natural I feel like most of the people mad are not even Cena fans. This just feels like an excuse to complain.

Edited December 15, 2025 by Eivion

[Curt McGirt]

33 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

What I'm looking for is WWE to step and say listen John it's not the 70s anymore.

Hunter of all people was NEEEEEEVER gonna do that

So what if it's an excuse to complain. Fuck them. 

[RazorbladeKiss87]

I am glad they held off on Zaria and Sol breaking up still. That needs to happen in front of an NXT crowd. 

 

[Sublime]

31 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Shouldn't Cena even in retirement be preaching "Never Give Up" ?  

John Cena the wrestling character never gave up. Cena lifted the curtain showed us the man who played the role.the character never gave up but the role ended and the actor who played him said farewell to that role and he took his bow. 
 

I only read a recap of the match and watched a clip of the end, as I don’t follow WWE but this is close to and unavoidable topic in the wrestling sphere right now. Cena had a valiant match and fought like super Cena throughout. But the clock was ticking on his career, we all knew it, the character never relented, he never gave up, but all roles end. He gave his everything to the fans and the actor smiled to us to say it’s ok this is over, we had years of fun together, goodbye to this role and my time in it.

[Curt McGirt]

[Sublime]

I will note that I’ve been writing about the positive read I had on the end of the match, I also thought that the smile was a moment of brashness and an FU to the booking. That Cena didn’t want to end his career tapping out and took a moment to be a bit unprofessional and give a smirk saying I don’t want to do this but here it goes. Kind of a Shawn Michaels vs Hogan moment but John is to much of a pro to kill the whole match

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

it's the smug too fucking bad reaction from the higher ups (Triple H mocking my friend Mark, the smug laugh when he embraced Cena, etc).

We don't know the conversation that was happening between Cena and Triple H that was happening when that laugh happened, so you're projecting pre-existing bias onto the situation.

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

What has me riled up is the lack of story, the lack of character development, the lack of respect for your fans, it's the totality of what they presented on the platter. I'm tired of shit sandwiches. Would have been nice to get a steak. If you want Cena to lose, if you want his last moment to be finally tapping, then put the narrative work in to make it satisfying. But why put effort into any of this right record profits blah blah blah.

Gunther literally said what he was going to do with his promo from Raw last week. Cena has been saying the whole year in his media interviews that his body is breaking down. Gunther just put the final straw on Cena's back and broke it.

If you are reading a novel and skip pages to get to the next chapter, and you find the novel unsatisfying, that doesn't mean the novel was bad. WWE has plenty of problems, and deserves to be called out on them, but this feels more like grinding an axe.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Nah, there was barely a story there.  One promo doesn't do it for me when it's the ace of the company of the past 20 years retiring.  It deserved some more thought put into it. 

[TheVileOne]

I think Gunther played this very well because he was all over ESPN last week talking about wanting to make Cena submit. Also, I think Gunther needs to lean into this that he beats everyone's childhood heroes and ruins their happy endings. 

The farewell tour wasn't thought out well because they clearly didn't have a heel turn mapped out for 2025. They basically speed ran a heel turn and then an abrupt face turn.

But I think the match itself and Cena's curtain call were handled as well as they could be under the circumstances. 

I think the problem is that Triple H has become too focused on big moments. Long-term storylines aren't really creative anymore. Also, no more blow-offs on PLEs. Because they've whittled down PLEs to only 4-5 matches, guys aren't getting to work the big PLEs anymore.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

1 hour ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

If you are reading a novel and skip pages to get to the next chapter, and you find the novel unsatisfying, that doesn't mean the novel was bad.

What novel goes well instead of telling you a story, with emotional highs and lows and a narrative through line, we're just gonna throw 16 dudes out there and one of them will be the antagonist once we get to the last page and he has no relationship with the protagonist and you will be satisfied by the protagonist giving up and losing?

I understand the point you're trying to make. I really do. But too many people are letting the lazy lead up to this go. You want John Cena to finally have to say thats it guys my body is finally broken down and I must give up? Im fine with that! Just do the leg work of telling that story. Not just oh hey this is the first time Ive wrestled this guy, guess his sloppy ass looking sleeper is just super deadly and enough for my body to give out but Im gonna smile while I do it.

Im getting so much push back in here for a completely rational thought. Do. The. Work. Tell the story. I dont even want to go back in time and list examples of times WWE did this because everyone's just gonna shit on it and call me a hater anyways.

Wrestling is story telling. Im being told I just didnt understand the novel. This shit wasnt a novel. This was a Highlights magazine in a dentist office with all the crosswords and shit filled out already and Im being told Im being irrational for not saying it should be a New York Time's best seller.

Edited December 15, 2025 by NoFistsJustFlips
deleted a dumb part of the post

[odessasteps]

Wonder if we eventually get legend killer Gunther vs legend killer RKO.

[Web Conn]

 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

25 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

What novel goes well instead of telling you a story, with emotional highs and lows and a narrative through line, we're just gonna throw 16 dudes out there and one of them will be the antagonist once we get to the last page and he has no relationship with the protagonist and you will be satisfied by the protagonist giving up and losing?

I understand the point you're trying to make. I really do. But too many people are letting the lazy lead up to this go. You want John Cena to finally have to say thats it guys my body is finally broken down and I must give up? Im fine with that! Just do the leg work of telling that story. Not just oh hey this is the first time Ive wrestled this guy, guess his sloppy ass looking sleeper is just super deadly and enough for my body to give out but Im gonna smile while I do it.

Im getting so much push back in here for a completely rational thought. Do. The. Work. Tell the story. I dont even want to go back in time and list examples of times WWE did this because everyone's just gonna shit on it and call me a hater anyways.

Wrestling is story telling. Im being told I just didnt understand the novel. This shit wasnt a novel. This was a Highlights magazine in a dentist office with all the crosswords and shit filled out already and Im being told Im being irrational for not saying it should be a New York Time's best seller.

Whatever. Hive mind gonna hive mind. (WWE fans not DVDVR board members to be clear lol).

Again, for a year now, John Cena has been saying his body is breaking down and that's why he's retiring. If he can't be the John Cena everyone expects, then he doesn't want to keep going.

Gunther already retired Goldberg in the same exact fashion. He's the absolute worst person to have won that tournament for John Cena, because if he gets in there with Cena, he's going to do to Cena what he did to Goldberg. He even tells Cena what he's going to do to him. Then he does it.

And Cena, because he's no longer able to be the John Cena everyone remembers anymore, because as he's been saying for the last year his body is breaking down, finally found a thing he can't overcome, so he taps, against all the things he espoused for years - because he is not that man anymore, and accepts his fate. Obi-Wan Kenobi smiled before Darth Vader killed him too.

Say what you will about the story being simplistic or the work not having technical merit (the sleeper was pretty loose, yes), but there is a difference between "there's no story" and "I didn't like the story", as well as "I thought they should have told a different story".

Also, that "hive mind" comment was unnecessary. You're not arguing with people who are never going to see your post, so unless you're trying to paint certain people here with a specific brush, you didn't need to say that.