WWE TV - 12/8 - 12/14/2025 - His Time Is Up, Your Time Is Now

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Cena himself has been positioning his retirement as "in three weeks no one will give a fuck that I'm gone". I dont agree with that but I will use that sentiment towards Gunther tapping him.

If Sting's run was totally different and a makeup, can we get a makeup run for Cena then? His last year was awful. The difference is AEW treated Sting with reverence. He was an icon that they kept strong and allowed him to shine. WWE was like oooo we have a hook to sell a lot of tickets. Thats it. They didnt treat Cena with reverence. They treated him like just a dude on the roster they wanted to wring every ounce of profit out his name they could.

Flair. HBK. Angle. Batista. Goldberg. Cena. Everyone loses. Its always a downer. Why cant they ever just once give the fans that happy ending they want at the end of a run? Undertaker won his last much but no one was sure that cinematic match would actually be the end, otherwise he would have lost too.

Im not saying put everyone iver at the end. Just once and awhile when appropriate. Now saying that Im sure a shithead like Lesnar will randomly be the dude that gets to leave on a win. Even if Cena demanded to tap you over ride him and tell him it makes no sense for his character and it does more harm than good.

Edited December 14, 2025 by NoFistsJustFlips
Added Batista

[NoFistsJustFlips]

It wasn't always this way, but the reality of our times is that WWE is not a company trying to put on good art. They are a cooperation trying to pull as much profit as possible.

And I get it. If an Avengers movie makes 2 billion dollars but everyone universally hates it and says creatively it was bad, but they keep showing up to the sequels and breaking the 2 billion dollar record every year why would Disney change anything? Who cares if people agree they suck creatively, we still made the most money ever.

So WWE are gonna keep WWE-ing because the fans keep opening the wallet even when complaining about the product.

Current day WWE just isnt for me. They arent wrestling anymore. They're Saturday Night Live with a ring. Over-scripted to the point every breath you take is mapped out and assigned to a camera. Glossy slick trash.

Edited December 14, 2025 by NoFistsJustFlips

[The Natural]

Regarding Randy Orton not being present during John Cena’s farewell week and final match show appearance, multiple sources confirmed this was a deliberate call made at the highest level.

Paul Levesque and Nick Khan were both of the view that having Orton involved in the send-off added little in terms of business value. The belief internally was that the Cena farewell was about Cena, not revisiting past rivalries that have already been heavily documented and revisited on screen over the years.

Instead, Orton was sent to Saudi Arabia as part of previously mapped priorities, with the feeling that his presence there had more upside commercially and logistically than standing ringside for a moment that was already locked in emotionally and historically. Orton was not alone on the trip, with Omos, Grayson Waller, Tiffany Stratton and Liv Morgan also in Saudi as part of the same push.

As for Orton, those close to him indicated he was not happy with how the situation played out. He has expressed that privately to people around him, but has made no public comments. Orton is said to be mindful of his position and his family, and has chosen to keep his frustration out of the public space so it does not create noise or complicate things on that front.

- WON.

[Dolfan in NYC]

Meanwhile Main Event Jey Uso is rapidly heading towards Dark Match Jey Uso.  

 

If he keeps this up, he'll be AEW Dark Match Jey Uso before too long. 

[The Outsider]

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

So what is Cena the character saying in that finish to all of the kids and adults who believed in "Never Give Up"  ?   Never Give Up until you get older and you're not quite as good as you once were,  THEN you can give up?   For me....  Cena passing out to Gunther is the move.  Everybody gets what they want/need out of it. 

But it's whatever.  They did what they did.  Triple H deserved to get booed for how shit 2025 has been with him as the head of creative. 

Completely agree with all of this. I think there's more people upset with HOW he lost than the fact that he lost and are being wrongfully lumped and labeled as "missing the point" or "not understand wrestling". WWE currently feels like watching 2000s street basketball where they're more focused on creating highlight reels with crossovers and insane dribbling, while completely ignoring that they didn't even hit the jumper or layup afterwards. You still could've had the highlight of Cena not giving up, but passing out to this beast of a wrestler in Gunther who was able to choke out JOHN CENA, but they decided to take an extra unnecessary dribble and completely miss the layup by having him tap out. A John Cena retirement run should have never gotten this complicated or poorly executed. 

[The Natural]

 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

Sol Ruca is cool.

I must have missed something in the main event. I think my monitor cut out.

[The Natural]

[Steventon]

I am sure there is already a massive discourse around this, but Cena quitting in his retirement match instead of 'not giving up' and passing out, just so they could get some more clickbaity 'moment' meme content of fans being in shock, is the kind of move that really deserves this company of getting Dusty'd from certain States for a generation.

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

3 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

So what is Cena the character saying in that finish to all of the kids and adults who believed in "Never Give Up"  ?   Never Give Up until you get older and you're not quite as good as you once were,  THEN you can give up?   For me....  Cena passing out to Gunther is the move.  Everybody gets what they want/need out of it. 

But it's whatever.  They did what they did.  Triple H deserved to get booed for how shit 2025 has been with him as the head of creative. 

That was my takeaway as well.  He invalidated his core message of the last two decades!  Assassinated his own character!  Tapping out rather than passing out sends a horrible message to all the little Cenation Commanders!!!  Never Giving Up in defeat would have been a perfect full circle story.  Sure he lost to the younger, bigger, badder guy, but he NEVER GAVE UP.  And he can keep riding that mantra forever, because it's not like his relationship with WWE is over.  They're still going to merchandise him and cross promote and bring him around for nostalgia pops.  I don't know, when you tie your career and your catchphrase so closely to DYING CHILDREN maybe think of the children when you're laying out your last match

I'm really curious if they talked Cena into tapping or if it was his idea....because either way passing out makes way more sense.  Company man to the end I guess, and maybe we should wait for Cena's telling of the story as he sees it......but I can see why so many people are hating it

And I didn't even put two and two together that Gunther tapped to Jey Uso of all people at WM.  That was weird then and even weirder now.

I also question (to a degree) putting all this heat on Gunther when from what I can tell their core fanbase seems kinda meh on the guy.  I was watching the NBA Cup last night, but I went on reddit after and got sucked into reading all the real time Cena/WWE reactions........I saw the word 'boring' used to describe Gunther more times than I can remember

 

[peterien]

I don’t get why people are so shocked and butthurt at the ending. Going into the match there was like an 80% chance Cena would submit because a) it’s his last match and b) it’s fucking GUNTHER.

As for the “Never Give Up” shtick people shouldn’t read too much into it,he knew he was trapped in the submission, was happy it was his time to give in and with what he had accomplished hence the smirk, it was his time to let go. 

Gunther is a made man now, they shouldn’t drop the ball with this. 

Edited December 14, 2025 by peterien

[NoFistsJustFlips]

20 minutes ago, peterien said:

Gunther is a made man now, they shouldn’t drop the ball with this. 

You mean the dude with the longest IC Title reign of all time, two World Title runs, the longest UK Champion, and the guy that already retired Goldberg still needed "made"? I don't know about all that lol.

That's the thing. What's done is done. You should be putting one of the titles on him again and having an underdog face chase him for being such a prick. But from everything reported he's not in either title picture moving forward. Did this shine him up for Lesnar at Mania? Even still that match would have been over even without beating Cena.

Also I'm not opposed to Cena losing his last match. I just don't like the presentation of how they did it. I also don't like that this wasn't the culmination of a long story. It was just a match. I do think Cena should have won in the scenario they presented us. But that doesn't mean I'm against all scenarios of Cena going out with a loss.

[Bustronaut]

He was literally retiring, of course he was going to give up.  The one and only time it makes sense for him to be like "Yeah I'm good"

[Cobra Commander]

2 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Meanwhile Main Event Jey Uso is rapidly heading towards Dark Match Jey Uso.  

 

If he keeps this up, he'll be AEW Dark Match Jey Uso before too long. 

he'll be Main Event Jey Uso on wherever Main Event is airing in 3 weeks

[Curt McGirt]

3 hours ago, Eivion said:

I won't say there wasn't a wrong choice to be made here, but between Cena winning, passing out, or tapping out there really wasn't a wrong choice. Gunther can eat the loss and recover fine. Cena passing out still puts Gunther over. That said, Cena tapping out is the only ending that really gives Gunther anything to work with past this moment. Cena has been beaten before, nothing new there. Gunther is a beast but not something unseen in WWE. Tapping out John "Super" Cena is something no active wrestler can lay claim to. Its a unique credit for Gunther that puts him over more than any other result possibly could have. 

I can see that side of it. There's another side of that too: If Gunther couldn't tap Cena, there's always something that could haunt him, that any opponent could have in their deck of cards against him, to bring out that he couldn't tap Cena. 

[Cobra Commander]

guessing the WWE is out of the habit of "legends must always go over current guys" enough to rule out Gunther eating an FU during a non-match sometime down the road

[Curt McGirt]

Wait now, Cena SMILED while he tapped out? 

That is the most meta, self-congratulatory bullshit ever.

...it's so WWE. 

[Cobra Commander]

meanwhile, Cody in his most Dusty-ish formal outfit

[Web Conn]

26 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

guessing the WWE is out of the habit of "legends must always go over current guys" enough to rule out Gunther eating an FU during a non-match sometime down the road

Their Audience is still so conditioned to it that they chanted Bullshit and You Fucked Up last night H might think they have to have Gunther eat an F5 as a make good

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

25 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Wait now, Cena SMILED while he tapped out? 

That is the most meta, self-congratulatory bullshit ever.

...it's so WWE. 

The way I found out the result was by seeing a picture of him with a goofy look on his face while tapping.  It's funny as fuck

[Eivion]

4 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

If Sting's run was totally different and a makeup, can we get a makeup run for Cena then? His last year was awful. The difference is AEW treated Sting with reverence. He was an icon that they kept strong and allowed him to shine. WWE was like oooo we have a hook to sell a lot of tickets. Thats it. They didnt treat Cena with reverence. They treated him like just a dude on the roster they wanted to wring every ounce of profit out his name they could.

Cena was treated with reverence for at least half of his career in WWE. And he was still treated fine this past year. The retirement tour just wasn't what some hoped for booking wise.  If they tried to wring every bit of profit out of it him I'm pretty sure he would have appeared and wrestled a lot more.

 

[hammerva]

I mean what is worse,  smiling while being tapped out in final match or that he wrestled in some bootleg version of Sketchers 

[peterien]

1 hour ago, Cobra Commander said:

meanwhile, Cody in his most Dusty-ish formal outfit

Aura farming. Dude never misses an opportunity. 

[Curt McGirt]

I will forever be sad about Wesley Willis never doing "Rock over London, rock on Chicago -- Sketchers, It's the S"

[Hamhock]

I’m sure it was an emotional moment for many of the roster, but a distraught Cody pulling focus and remaining in the ring to kneel and stare at Cena’s sneakers and grieve like he had witnessed Misawa‘s death was a little much for me.

Regardless of feelings on whether the tap-out was the right call or not, tomorrow’s Raw had better start with Cena’s music, followed by Gunther entering wearing a mock Cena t-shirt that says “GIVE UP”; ordering Stu the cameraman to methodically walk with him down the aisle, etc.