May 2025 Wrestling Talk

[Cobra Commander]

14 minutes ago, twiztor said:

well WWE's record isn't great. Fake Diesel, Fake Razor, and Fake Kane all flopped hard. Sin Cara wasn't a glowing success. I can't imagine a Fake Goldust being any sort of good.
Hell, all of their "New" Tag Teams were significantly worse than the originals.

New Vader?   Ultimate Warrior 2?

I think I typed on here the idea of the WWE just recasting Sin Cara over and over. It wouldn't have been a good idea but it would have been a fun running joke

then again I'd also put a mask on some job guys so that they could lose on TV without being seen losing, a plan that can only fail when you consider some guys really wouldn't work well wearing a mask for the first time

oh yeah... add Doink to a list of bad recastings because I think every Doink after Borne was essentially like a VHS tape losing quality as it gets dubbed

[supremebve]

2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Boxing is weird in that technically, the Ali Act has been violated and circumvented in several different ways cause boxing politics seem to supersede what should be happening. I mean a lot of this has changed in the last 5-10 years cause there is no more HBO and now no more Showtime. So a lot of the cold war in boxing has pretty much disappeared. That and Saudi Arabia is bankrolling many of the bigger cards (see this past weekend). However, prior to that, Top Rank fighters rarely faced Golden Boy fighters. Up until last year, Eddie Hearn's Matchroom Boxing promotion that has had a longstanding rivalry in the UK with Frank Warren's Queensberry Promotions going back to when Eddie's father Barry promoted against Frank Warren throughout the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. Those two promotions rarely had fighters face each other especially as the TV situation changed over the years. With four different sanctioning bodies and a lot of presumably greasing of palms and corruption, a lot of promoters got to keep belts in their stable or at least in their region for years. Hell, the super middleweight titles outside of short stint with Roy Jones in the mid 90s stayed in Western Europe for the better part of 10-15 years. To be fair, stateside, a lot of belts rarely got defended outside of North America. We're talking a sport where even the poorest countries have had somewhat thriving boxing scenes.

Boxing politics has made it where everything goes where the money goes. Hence, why you have so many cards in Saudi Arabia now. That and there are less mid tier promoters. I mean back in the day you had Forum Boxing funded by Dr. Jerry Buss that had Mark "Too Sharp" Johnson, Daniel Zaragoza, "Chiquita" Gonzalez, a very young Marco Antonio Barrera, Juan Manuel Marquez, and many others. You had AB Stars promoted by the Acaries brothers out of France that grabbed up some of the lesser known guys at the time like Winky Wright, Wilfredo Vazquez, and Ike Quartey. Cedric Kushner promoted Sugar Shane Mosley when he was rising up the ranks as a pound for pound superstar. You had Main Events under the Duva clan which had a plethora guys from Holyfield to Lennox Lewis to Fernando Vargas, David Tua, and Pernell Whitaker. So you had people other than Arum and King and the bigger international promoters like Frank Warren. Now? It's Arum who isn't really a power player anymore at his age and his family runs Top Rank now, De La Hoya whose stable is very top heavy, Eddie Hearn, and Frank Warren. That's four folks between the entire world. And honestly, those four now pretty much work to service Turki Alalshikh. He is the only one that matters now.

I'm 100% sure that the Ali Act has been circumvented in 10,000 different ways, but TKO's lobbying to get it overturned is 100% about hording all the money for themselves while fucking over the fighters.  Boxing is a corrupt, piece of shit industry, but boxers can and do make a shit load of money compared to most corrupt, piece of shit industries.  The Ali Act is a huge reason why this exploitative ass sport pays well.  There are other protections, like the promoter can't have a financial interest in the management of a fighter, which stops the exact type of shit the UFC does to keep their fighters from making too much money.  They have spent millions keeping the Ali Act from affecting MMA and are spending millions trying to get it repealed in boxing.  They are transparent with their ambitions for boxing, but they aren't going to do it if they have to play by the current rules.

[Elsalvajeloco]

24 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I'm 100% sure that the Ali Act has been circumvented in 10,000 different ways, but TKO's lobbying to get it overturned is 100% about hording all the money for themselves while fucking over the fighters.  Boxing is a corrupt, piece of shit industry, but boxers can and do make a shit load of money compared to most corrupt, piece of shit industries.  The Ali Act is a huge reason why this exploitative ass sport pays well.  There are other protections, like the promoter can't have a financial interest in the management of a fighter, which stops the exact type of shit the UFC does to keep their fighters from making too much money.  They have spent millions keeping the Ali Act from affecting MMA and are spending millions trying to get it repealed in boxing.  They are transparent with their ambitions for boxing, but they aren't going to do it if they have to play by the current rules.

True indeed, but boxing prior to the Ali Act, the top tier guys ALWAYS made more than anyone in walk of the life. The problem is once you get past a certain tier, boxers don't make a certain amount same as MMA. Forever and day, you had guys on HBO and Showtime fighting in featured fights working as a NYPD police officer or working construction or teaching P.E., or some other 9-to-5 job. Hell, don't let it be a PPV card where you need three or four televised fights underneath the main event. You're getting people straight off their couch. Christy Martin fought and beat up some poor black woman from Atlanta who had to have been just getting off her shift at the Waffle House. I believe that was on one of the Tyson undercards years back. If that woman got paid more than $15,000 to get concussed by Christy Martin, I would be extremely surprised. And that's where boxing falls short itself. Granted, you sign the contract and know very well what could happen. However, it ain't worth the money even if most of the beating is purely cosmetic and you got stopped in round 1 taking minimal damage. At least with a Christy Martin, her defense was her offense and she's blocking punches with her face. You might mess around, get lucky, and land as many as you take with her. The other cases? You're fighting world class opposition who in the case of guys like Vasyl Lomachenko and Andre Ward have upwards of 300 or 400 amateur bouts prior to the pros. You have ZERO chance of being even semi competitive. Those guys are rightfully getting top dollar. You as an opponent? No. That's the getting fed to the lions in the Colosseum aspect of the sport.

[Log]

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

I know all about it, but as bad as it is, it's still him being a giant douche to one person.  I hope she sues him into homelessness, but the harm he has done is minimal compared to the decades of shit the WWE has done and is doing.  Those two dudes are shitbags, don't get me wrong, but if this was a movie those are the toadiest of the WWE's henchmen.  The Avengers don't assemble for Logan Paul, Pat McAfee, or even the combination of the two.  The WWE/TKO/Endeavor is an Avengers level threat and we spend our time hating on Paul and McAfee.  They're meat shields, and if they go too far they'll be fired.  It won't stop the train from running though.  Never forget, when the child sex trafficking thing came out, they fired Pat Patterson for long enough that people stopped asking questions, and then hired his ass right back.  This company has been evil for our entire lives and they play in our face about it.

What grosses me out about McAfee is that he’s just a commentator. After the shit he pulled with the Ole Miss student, they could’ve just quietly left him on the desk, but instead, he’s in a featured match at the next PPV or whatever the fuck they’re called now. Like, they’re emphasizing him more after that. This poor girl has had to move and hide from all the online bullshit that he amplified, and WWE is like, “Let’s do more with this guy!” 
 

There’s a difference in employing shitbags and featuring them at the height of their shitbaggedness. 
 

I very much agree with your overall point. I just don’t think they’re recent handling of the McAfee situation should be minimized. 
 

 

Edited May 5, 2025 by Log

[odessasteps]

Cross posting from the lucha thread 

 

[SovietShooter]

11 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Is Alberto popular in Mexico?  It feels like such a risk to keep him around with little reward.  But maybe I'm wrong and he's a big deal down there. 

Not a simple answer. 

Alberto is the son of Dos Caras, and nephew of Sicodelico & Mil Mascaras - all old time legends. Lucha is very patriarchal and nostaligic, so yeah, he is a big deal in that sense.  Then add on that he is a multiple time WWE champ, he is seen by a lot of folks as a Mexican that went abroad to test himself against the best in the world, and came out in top.

But, with that said, there is no evidence that Alberto is a draw for AAA.  After his original WWE run he worked for AAA and was booked on top, but I don't think he sparked business for AAA at that time anymore than someone like Texano Jr. What he did do was lend credibility as a returning conquerer.  Since Peña's passing AAA was built not on making new stars, but in bringing stars in, and Alberto fits that profile. 

Now, after his most recent WWE stint, Alberto became to go-to "star" that every upstart Lucha promoter turned to in their attempt to start a third major promotion, aka "money marks".  None of these promotions were successful, but they did cement that Alberto is not a draw.  But, with AAA's downturn the past few years, and not being able to afford to bring in major foreign stars on a regular basis, Alberto, desperate to rehab his image, became an affordable and credible star to build the promotion around. While he has been on top, AAA has been at their lowest point ever. And, it is not like his ring work is being praised either. He is either working with washed guys like Mesias & Cibernetico, or dragging down guys like Vikingo by forcing them to work his sports entertainment style matches.

[supremebve]

5 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

True indeed, but boxing prior to the Ali Act, the top tier guys ALWAYS made more than anyone in walk of the life. The problem is once you get past a certain tier, boxers don't make a certain amount same as MMA. Forever and day, you had guys on HBO and Showtime fighting in featured fights working as a NYPD police officer or working construction or teaching P.E., or some other 9-to-5 job. Hell, don't let it be a PPV card where you need three or four televised fights underneath the main event. You're getting people straight off their couch. Christy Martin fought and beat up some poor black woman from Atlanta who had to have been just getting off her shift at the Waffle House. I believe that was on one of the Tyson undercards years back. If that woman got paid more than $15,000 to get concussed by Christy Martin, I would be extremely surprised. And that's where boxing falls short itself. Granted, you sign the contract and know very well what could happen. However, it ain't worth the money even if most of the beating is purely cosmetic and you got stopped in round 1 taking minimal damage. At least with a Christy Martin, her defense was her offense and she's blocking punches with her face. You might mess around, get lucky, and land as many as you take with her. The other cases? You're fighting world class opposition who in the case of guys like Vasyl Lomachenko and Andre Ward have upwards of 300 or 400 amateur bouts prior to the pros. You have ZERO chance of being even semi competitive. Those guys are rightfully getting top dollar. You as an opponent? No. That's the getting fed to the lions in the Colosseum aspect of the sport.

I can't argue with any of this, but my point is that the people running the UFC and WWE looked at this arrangement and said, "Nope, not exploitative enough for us."

[Elsalvajeloco]

10 hours ago, supremebve said:

I can't argue with any of this, but my point is that the people running the UFC and WWE looked at this arrangement and said, "Nope, not exploitative enough for us."

Well, I mean this is what Dana has always wanted. He has been trying to get a boxing promotion off the ground for about 10 years and been frozen out. He has also been bitching that the people who run boxing ran it into the ground. In today's climate, this is the first time that everyone is weak enough for Dana to enter boxing. It also doesn't hurt that UFC had an established connection with the Middle East longer than what boxing has.

That said, the structure boxing has had in place for what? More than a century plus? There is no way fighters (specifically the bigger name boxers) would allow for purses to be driven down to the point where marquee fighters are making less than what's been the asking price for megafights for their particular era. Canelo-Crawford wouldn't happen unless some crazy (and more importantly, wealthy) person was willing to bankroll it just like Foreman-Ali in Zaire wouldn't have happened unless it was under the auspices of a promotion overseen by Mobutu's government with added guidance from Don King. The same goes for what happened with Ali-Frazier III taking place in the Philippines under Ferdinand Marcos' reign. I think the biggest obstacle for Dana not being able to enter boxing besides being frozen out politically is they (Dana along with the Fertittas pre-Endeavor) simply won't willing to spend enough money in a time someone like Floyd Mayweather is commanding nine figure purses once everything is tallied up and Canelo is making more than $30+ million guaranteed per fight. This is twenty to twenty five years after everyone considered Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, and some of those guys breaking the $10 million mark as absurd and about thirty five to forty years after Ali, Frazier, Foreman, and the four kings of Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Roberto Duran, and Marvelous Marvin Hagler getting in the neighborhood of $4m-10m for their fights against each other was considered mind blowing. The fighters, who have much better representation than most MMA folks, will not allow the sport to go backwards. They might be able to drive down purses for some of the guys on the way up fighting six, eight, and ten rounders, but the fact that come this July, boxing for the first time since TV was a thing will no longer be on linear TV pretty much decided it was headed that direction anyway. A lot of the guys we saw coming up the past 25-30 years and their promoters depended on the quarter million to two or three million dollars given by the TV networks and the venues to put on cards to be divvied up between the A side fighters with the rest left over given to their opponents. That's gone now, which is why Turki Alalshikh funding these cards and also Amazon on the PBC side is critical. They're replacing the much needed money streams because unlike UFC and WWE, boxing is not getting major rights fees. They had been depending on the same system established in the PPV and premium cable eras from 35-40 years ago. I mean AEW is getting more money TV wise than Top Rank is/was if I am not mistaken and Top Rank's aforementioned last show on ESPN is set for July. Top Rank Boxing has been around since the early 70s and had a connection with ESPN since the inception of ESPN. AEW is what? Six years old and already lapped them? That's why Dana is like a shark smelling blood in the water even though UFC's TV rights are coming due as well and they're probably getting booted off of ESPN too. They still will make a multiplier of whatever anyone in boxing is making and far exceed them in terms of revenue and profit. That's why Bob Arum casually floated the idea of selling Top Rank when UFC got sold in 2016, and Bob Arum has NEVER EVER been close to selling Top Rank Boxing save for that moment since Top Rank has been in existence. This is basically Vince McMahon in the mid 80s and his competition is still doing fine or able to get by financially, but now they're extremely vulnerable and the time seems right to make a move.

However, try as they might on the legislation side, guess what? Trump won't be President forever, phantom third term included. More importantly, by the time this all shakes out, he will be at the end of his term/way too old and on his way out. Okay, the Ali Act gets repealed. Then, in five years, a more liberal regime makes legislation with much more specificity than the Ali Act aiming to empower fighters more than the original especially in light of UFC's own antitrust lawsuit that just closed, then Dana and Turki Alalshikh are shit outta luck. They're playing with matches if they legit try to make that move. As powerful as Turki Alalshikh is in Saudi Arabia, he cannot be as powerful in the United States. If he does try to make a power play or has a terrible gaffe, he might fuck around and get himself kicked out of having any connection with U.S. based entities just like Daniel Kinahan did a few years ago when it was found out he was a notorious criminal or it became more readily obvious he was. Kinahan went from a being potential major player to it being disavowed he had any connection with the sport of boxing. As much as he's already been established as symbolic of human rights violations and trying to silence his critics in his own nation, just on the business end, I would hope Turki wouldn't overplay his hand like that. If he does, we might not see another major superfight in boxing for a decade or so. 

Dana knows as much about politics as a third grader and perhaps less than a third grader, matter of fact. Worst case scenario, Dana gets to say he was on top of the boxing world for 1-2 years before it reverts back to actual boxing promoters or at least someone with a semblance of knowledge on how to promote. They missed the window for real substantive change by about three or four decades. They are also on the radar after having to pay out for the class action lawsuit. Right now, it would take as long as it took for them to get in New York state to run shows in the mid 2010s, which was about seven or eight years to change what they needed to change. They might still be trying to get into New York if a major union friendly politician blocking them didn't get arrested and his friends and allies didn't get voted out of office in the state of New York. It is going to take a combination and convergence of different things to happen. The only thing that's in place now is the fact the boxing hierarchy is in severe disarray because one guy has a ton of money to work with. That's it. One executive order from Trump isn't going to change anything. He has no control over boxing politics just like technically he really has no actual power over Hollywood. He can float some ideas out there with his old ass pals like Voight and Stallone who haven't been relevant in decades and make one grandstand announcement like he did the other day, but he cannot actually control Hollywood or to the extent he believes he can cause most of it isn't funded by the U.S. government. Same goes with boxing. The U.S. government has went after boxing since the Italian mafia days and before that the illegal unsanctioned fights during the turn of the century and still cannot get significant control over it. 

 

[Peck]

It's time to take out the trash, indeed.

https://www.f4wonline.com/news/other-wrestling/duke-droese-indicted-on-attempted-aggravated-sexual-exploitation-of-a-minor/

[RazorbladeKiss87]

15 hours ago, supremebve said:

WWE news is like the Thong Song, it's terrible, it's the same verse multiple times, but somehow they sing it with so much feeling you don't realize it and the next thing you know you're singing along to that ridiculous shit.

I cannot stand for this Sisqo slander!

[zendragon]

13 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

which gimmicks would be recast if American promotions did what the Mexican/Japanese promotions did more often

either recast successful gimmicks due to some reason, or trying someone else in a gimmick that didn't work

Well not as many masked wrestlers makes it more difficult, closest I can come to thinking of it working is adding a third member to demolition 

[NikoBaltimore]

16 hours ago, twiztor said:

good news, 3/4 members of Dru Hill were not included in the comparison. Only Sisqo.

My brain was fried from work and I put down Dru Hill when it should have been Sisqo.  Whoops.

ANYWAY, McAfee's show was fine as background noise during lunch break.  But the more he was on Raw the more insufferable he became.  Add to it the Ole Miss situation and it didn't take long for me to sour on him.  That said a friend of mine showed me his promo from I guess a week or two ago where he challenged Gunther.  If you didn't know much about the guy it's easy to think he's an overly excited yet decent enough guy.  I get why they love him.  It's just too bad he doesn't know when to shut the fuck up.

[AxB]

I'm watching a Nate Quarry interview on an Anti-Maga MMA YouTube channel, and he's talking about how the "MMA Fighters sue the UFC" lawsuit was (during the Obama Administration) attempting to segue into an expansion of the Ali act. Change the wording from "Boxer" to "Fighter".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WH4i4nv83s

It's 1hr 11, but it's pretty good background music.

[The Natural]

https://twitter.com/Vick_8122/status/1919746711620055053

Thank you, Becky Lynch on Hulk Hogan.

Edited May 7, 2025 by The Natural

[Cobra Commander]

5 hours ago, zendragon said:

Well not as many masked wrestlers makes it more difficult, closest I can come to thinking of it working is adding a third member to demolition 

Or recasting Smash because fans were apparently more aware of the Moondogs than Krusher Khrushchev

[Zimbra]

Max Moon is the other gimmick I can think of them recasting, but it would be dubious to call any part of it 'successful.'

I assume if they could get away with it we'd have a new Undertaker every decade or so.

[Cobra Commander]

yeah, was Ted DiBiase just planning on his fake Undertaker becoming the new Undertaker if he won at Summerslam (or the real Undertaker didn't show up), would DiBiase have built on that success by replacing the Million Dollar Corporation with fake versions of successful wrestlers

edit: 1990s DiBiase getting into human cloning would be more interesting than what they actually did with him

Edited May 6, 2025 by Cobra Commander

[supremebve]

2 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

yeah, was Ted DiBiase just planning on his fake Undertaker becoming the new Undertaker if he won at Summerslam (or the real Undertaker didn't show up), would DiBiase have built on that success by replacing the Million Dollar Corporation with fake versions of successful wrestlers

We could probably do another Million Dollar Man.  I feel like we probably can't remake full on characters that are continuations of iconic characters.  But the idea of a super rich dude who tries to buy his way to success is a concept that should be evergreen.  They shouldn't try to associate him with Ted DiBiase in any way, but a billionaire villain would probably be pretty successful these days.

[Cobra Commander]

could simultaneously rip off DiBiase, Mama's Boy Jim Cornette, and Elon Musk for a rich villain... not sure if I'd have him be a kayfabe billionaire

it's like with Fifty Shades of Grey where the author decided that Christian Grey had to also be a billionaire because apparently the story wouldn't have worked if he was merely a multi-millionaire

 

[Technico Support]

5 minutes ago, supremebve said:

They shouldn't try to associate him with Ted DiBiase in any way, but a billionaire villain would probably be pretty successful these days.

I somehow don't think we as a culture despise the rich like we used to.

[supremebve]

1 minute ago, Cobra Commander said:

could simultaneously rip off DiBiase, Mama's Boy Jim Cornette, and Elon Musk for a rich villain... not sure if I'd have him be a kayfabe billionaire

it's like with Fifty Shades of Grey where the author decided that Christian Grey had to also be a billionaire because apparently the story wouldn't have worked if he was merely a multi-millionaire

 

There is no bigger trope in fiction that has less to do with reality than the idea of the billionaire who is also the charming ladies man.  All those dudes are dweebs who are only successful with women because those women are after their money.  The real life dudes who have all the game are like my cousin who has 10+ kids, but as far as I know has never had a job.  It's really hard to bring nothing to the table and still somehow have multiple women at the same time for 30+ years.  

[peterien]

On 5/5/2025 at 5:12 PM, Craig H said:

Something else my friend and I talked about last night is how much this John Cena story fucking blows. This is going to wind just being a larger example so bear with me here…All of the Rock’s bullshit has left the station so it’s up to HHH to make this compelling. It’s pretty clear he’s struggling at the moment. Not to the point where a change is needed, but this isn’t unlike what Coach experienced.

It’s like how a band’s first album is great and the follow up is often disappointing. TK, and probably HHH, had a year or two of stories completely mapped out. Everything went mostly according to plan and was great. But since then it has been a bunch of good starts that just kind of went nowhere. Look how hot the New Day were with their heel turn and now they don’t get close to the same heat. Charlotte comes back and is booked to win the Royal Rumble and then loses to Tiffy in a rough but ok match. Neither of them look any better coming out of that match though. The booking leading up to WM was a mess and despite knowing for a full year that WM would happen weeks later year, everything just dragged on and was bogged down. Cody now looks like a geek. Roman and Punk are off the reservation and once again we had a good start with Bron and Seth and then a week later the top heels are being cheered and Sami is getting lukewarm receptions. People who think Chicken Jockey is insufferable have never heard of Seth Rollins. There’s a ton more examples but I’m not going to belabor the point.

HHH isn’t infallible when it comes to booking and is just as prone as TK to not knowing how to keep things compelling coming off of your hot streak. TK figured it out and HHH can too, but will HHH have the runway and latitude to get back on track working in a corporate scorpion pit?

Agreed on all points. And to add to it, they had a hot start with Penta and it seems they don’t know what to do with him, I can’t see him winning at the PLE as they’ll probably want to further the Judgement Day story. But hey who knows. 

The Cena turn is just pure laziness, it wasn’t thought out fully and he/they obviously didn’t want to lose out on merch sales so they just stuck him in his same gear and gave him the “You People” generic heel turn.

It’s obvious they don’t know what to do with Rhea other than “ummm she’s the champ now”. Bringing Becky and Charlotte back for storylines that make no sense when there is plenty of women on the roster that deserve higher positions on the card. 

It reminds me of that period in 2018-2021 (I could be wrong on the years) where they had such a bloated roster and didn’t know what to do with it, which led to people wanting to leave and I feel those times are close again. 

Don’t get me started on Rollins being your main heel. 

The biggest and most interesting stars on the roster at the minute are Cody and Roman. Roman doesn’t want to be there full time so it’s hard to put him in any storyline that lasts longer than a couple of weeks and where the fuck do you go with Cody after that shit show of a Mania main. 

[Technico Support]

Something somethign doofus son in law something

[Log]

8 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Something somethign doofus son in law something

Hunter Hearst Wambsgans

[Guest lounging]

17 hours ago, Peck said:

It's time to take out the trash, indeed.

https://www.f4wonline.com/news/other-wrestling/duke-droese-indicted-on-attempted-aggravated-sexual-exploitation-of-a-minor/

https://youtu.be/llGNrUmo1SE?si=5JirsvZTdFeRkXuk