Wrestling Observer/Meltzer Ominbus Thread

[cool arrow]

Joints for breakfast?  Wouldn't that just make you even hungrier?

[Jerry Hattrick]

Gives a whole new meaning to a Jimmy Dean breakfast bowl, doesn't it?

[Execproducer]

Don't forget the Hash browns.

[Big Z]

So I've been watching a lot of old Memphis on YouTube, and I've been having trouble getting into it because Jerry Lawler is the most unlikable face that I have ever seen. Every promo, every angle. Worse than Hogan, Sheamus, Rocky Maivia, Del Rio, anyone. Nothing he does makes me root for him and everything he does makes me wish someone would just beat the shit out of him...how was this sustainable in the territory for as long as it was?

 

Jerry Lawler was awesome as the hometown hero King of Memphis. If you want unlikeable 1980's faces, go no farther then the Von Erichs in Texas.

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

Davey Richards???

 

How do you guys stay so contemporary? 

 

Hm. I think Rovert wants us to talk about breakfast joints again.

 

They make a good Sunday morning even better. And make IHOP attractive.

[rovert]

 

Davey Richards???

 

How do you guys stay so contemporary? 

 

Hm. I think Rovert wants us to talk about breakfast joints again.

 

Amen.

[MORELOCK]

So I've been watching a lot of old Memphis on YouTube, and I've been having trouble getting into it because Jerry Lawler is the most unlikable face that I have ever seen. Every promo, every angle. Worse than Hogan, Sheamus, Rocky Maivia, Del Rio, anyone. Nothing he does makes me root for him and everything he does makes me wish someone would just beat the shit out of him...how was this sustainable in the territory for as long as it was?

Jerry Lawler was awesome as the hometown hero King of Memphis. If you want unlikeable 1980's faces, go no farther then the Von Erichs in Texas.

"But he's awesome" doesn't really answer my question, but I have been meaning to check out old World Class stuff.Lawler is still a terrible face. To this day.

[cool arrow]

The tv show with the soccer player who turns into James Bond at night sounds so stupid that you just know it'll be awesome.

 

Also Jim Ross calling AAA would be the greatest trainwreck ever.

[jstout]

Some faces are so over they can be a dick and people love them more for it. Like when the Rock used to slap poor Hermie around - if a heel did that, most folks would be like "sumbitch!" but since it's the Rock and he was so good at it, it was "get 'em, Rock!"

 

Hermie's outlasted them all - take that, J.R.

[thee Reverend Axl Future]

 

 

So I've been watching a lot of old Memphis on YouTube, and I've been having trouble getting into it because Jerry Lawler is the most unlikable face that I have ever seen. Every promo, every angle. Worse than Hogan, Sheamus, Rocky Maivia, Del Rio, anyone. Nothing he does makes me root for him and everything he does makes me wish someone would just beat the shit out of him...how was this sustainable in the territory for as long as it was?

Jerry Lawler was awesome as the hometown hero King of Memphis. If you want unlikeable 1980's faces, go no farther then the Von Erichs in Texas.

"But he's awesome" doesn't really answer my question, but I have been meaning to check out old World Class stuff.Lawler is still a terrible face. To this day.

 

The point of Lawler as babyface was that Memphis/the USWA was his house, and any other wrestler who dared to challenge his spot as the (literal) KING was committing a grievous act of effrontery, un-hospitality and rudeness, if not outright treason. It worked because the audience supported (created?) this environment, a perfect expression of a regional territory with a promoter who was the lead babyface. Jstout's above example of The Rock is a good modern equivalent of this, in which the majority defines the acceptable behavior of it's favorites. As long as the masses are entertained the contradictions and hypocrisy are forgiven.

- it's good to be...,

RAF 

[Big Z]

Lawler was much better as a heel at the national level because his act was so in tune with Memphis. His AWA matches as a face were technically solid, but lacked the emotion of Memphis. On the other hand, his heel work in World Class was awesome, and his initial WWE run and Bret feud was really good. He has since had strong matches as a veteran face in WWE (King's matches with The Miz are arguably Miz's best save Daniel Bryan series), but his best national work was as a heel. However, very few smart fans do not enjoy Lawler as a face in Memphis.

[Jack Half-a-Prayer]

The Divas' Title was "unified" with the Women's Title so would you include that lineage as well?

 

P.S. We are all marks.

 

Indeed.  If you're a wrestling fan, you're a mark.  Pure and simple.

 

I mean, good for A.J.  The shelf-life of a WWE "diva" is pretty short, comparatively.  She might as well enjoy her time in the spotlight while it lasts. 

[rzombie1988]

I liked Lawler's face work. He was good in the ring, made the best comebacks and all of his promo's and angles were all well done.

[DougN]

I was really taken back by Meltz going off on the AJ being a mark. I mean, I know it's just the Divas title, but it was a dream of her and she got it done. Why is that so bad? Did he talk about Shawn being a mark for winning the title or anyone else who's acted like it was the biggest accomplishment of their life? I know they are different circumstances and Shawn is far superior, but still. I expected Bryan to shit all over it because he has logic gaps on the level of Hogan, but Meltzer sure surprised me.

[Blazer]

 

The Divas' Title was "unified" with the Women's Title so would you include that lineage as well?

 

P.S. We are all marks.

 

Indeed.  If you're a wrestling fan, you're a mark.  Pure and simple.

 

I mean, good for A.J.  The shelf-life of a WWE "diva" is pretty short, comparatively.  She might as well enjoy her time in the spotlight while it lasts. 

 

 

I know I'm in the minority here, but the disconnect with me being a child of the late 70s and early 80s, is that the fans should be marks.  I don't expect the workers to be marks once they've made it to the show.  I mean, the Divas title has about as much stature as the WBF or XFL championships.

 

 

I was really taken back by Meltz going off on the AJ being a mark. I mean, I know it's just the Divas title, but it was a dream of her and she got it done. Why is that so bad? Did he talk about Shawn being a mark for winning the title or anyone else who's acted like it was the biggest accomplishment of their life? I know they are different circumstances and Shawn is far superior, but still. I expected Bryan to shit all over it because he has logic gaps on the level of Hogan, but Meltzer sure surprised me.

 

Two points, and I'll leave it alone after that...

 

Shawn and Bret won a title that had a lineage of 30 years, and they were literally on top of the sport/business, which had a pool of hundreds if not thousands of workers.  How many female "wrestlers" even exist right now?

 

Shawn and Bret had to bust their behind for years and years.  AJ basically fell into her position, much of it by luck, some of it based on the lack of women involved.  The scenarios are not even comparable.  I hate to sound like the seasoned grizzled vet whining about "paying dues", but AJ has walked an easy route, relatively, to where she is today.  I wont say its been privileged, but its pretty damn close.

[thee Reverend Axl Future]

Shawn and Bret had to bust their behind for years and years.  AJ basically fell into her position, much of it by luck, some of it based on the lack of women involved.  The scenarios are not even comparable.  I hate to sound like the seasoned grizzled vet whining about "paying dues", but AJ has walked an easy route, relatively, to where she is today.  I wont say its been privileged, but its pretty damn close.

 

This is a very very good observation. I will say that the point is not that she has been bragging about how she deserves the belt, but the opposite, that she is humbled by honor of it. I assume she realizes the difference in degree of her situation and most other (let alone the examples you gave above) titles. If she doesn't, it really doesn't matter.

- every time you point out a mark, four fingers point back at you, you mark, or something,

RAF

[Blazer]

 

Shawn and Bret had to bust their behind for years and years.  AJ basically fell into her position, much of it by luck, some of it based on the lack of women involved.  The scenarios are not even comparable.  I hate to sound like the seasoned grizzled vet whining about "paying dues", but AJ has walked an easy route, relatively, to where she is today.  I wont say its been privileged, but its pretty damn close.

 

This is a very very good observation. I will say that the point is not that she has been bragging about how she deserves the belt, but the opposite, that she is humbled by honor of it. I assume she realizes the difference in degree of her situation and most other (let alone the examples you gave above) titles. If she doesn't, it really doesn't matter.

- every time you point out a mark, four fingers point back at you, you mark, or something,

RAF

 

 

Yep, I'm hesitant to throw the M-word around, and I understand that a lot of people here really enjoy her work.  I can respect that.  I do find myself agreeing with Dave on this one more than most people, but again that's what makes the world go around.  I don't think Meltzer if totally offbase on this one, even if he may be off on other things.

[DougN]

I get the difference between the Divas title and the WWE title of all things, but really, it's the only belt she could win...and a dream's a dream.

 

Your second point of it happening on happenstance is more valid.

 

Another valid point that only Bryan seem to make is that it's a belt that just rotates from woman to woman in WWE. Pretty much 75% of the women who have stuck around longer than a year and a half have gotten a title run at this point.

 

Still though, if she's happy about it, who cares? I don't think it's about being a mark. If she throws a tantrum over losing the title to someone like Naomi, then yeah, it applies.

[thee Reverend Axl Future]

Blazer, I noticed that you did not call her a mark - my wry quip was not directed to you. I respect your position; once someone calls her a mark ("markshaming"? [copyrighttrademarkpatentpendingprioruse]) that person's argument is voided to me.

Anyway, perhaps counter to my defense of AJ, which really was more of a counterpoint to several folks opinions of her actions (not that I know the gal), is the fact that promoters have sometimes used a title not just to represent the promotion, but to placate a markish but disgruntled worker, or perhaps in lieu of a raise. Sometimes a worker can be too cynical to properly rep a belt. Wrestlers can be green marks, but most promoters are heartless homunculi.

not bitter but jaded, 

RAF

[Blazer]

Blazer, I noticed that you did not call her a mark - my wry quip was not directed to you. I respect your position; once someone calls her a mark ("markshaming"? [copyrighttrademarkpatentpendingprioruse]) that person's argument is voided to me.

Anyway, perhaps counter to my defense of AJ, which really was more of a counterpoint to several folks opinions of her actions (not that I know the gal), is the fact that promoters have sometimes used a title not just to represent the promotion, but to placate a markish but disgruntled worker, or perhaps in lieu of a raise. Sometimes a worker can be too cynical to properly rep a belt. Wrestlers can be green marks, but most promoters are heartless homunculi.

not bitter but jaded, 

RAF

I may have called her a mark earlier in the thread (earlier this week), but thanks for your reply.

 

I still havent watched the match on Youtube with the "contentious" dialogue between AJ and the announcers.  Is it entertaining enough to go out of my way to find?  I'm wrapped up in a Prime Time 1987 set right now that is highly entertaining, and I'm not sure I can stomach any post 2001-wrestling right now. 

[Johnny Sorrow]

AJ is tiny without fake tits and can wrestle. To her, this means a lot. Who are a bunch of marks to shit on her?

[Casey]

Pretty sure everyone - fans and wrestlers alike - are marks in some form or another. Especially the guy who makes his living writing about the backstage bullshit in wrestling.

[DougN]

Oh, you hear Meltz talk about anyone who ever even co-headlined Cow Palace and it's hard not to classify him as a mark.

[Log]

There are "marks" in every line of work.  The place I work has, well, worked several people by giving them new titles in lieu of raises or actual promotions.  Same deal as the promoters Rev Axl mentioned.  

[JRV]

Marks calling workers marks is pretty surreal