AEW TV - 10/2 - 10/8/2024 - Like I'm Livin' A Top Flight Dream

[Technico Support]

22 hours ago, Log said:

How did I never notice that Darby talks just like Aaron Paul until last night?

I can't wait for Mox to pull some shit so Darby can cry HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT!

Fuck, now I'm laughing to myself about the awkward Walt/Skylar/Jesse frozen dinner dinner.  "Whatever happened to like, truth in advertising yo?"

[EVA]

I think all of that is well observed @Matt D

I’ll also add that I just seems REALLY difficult to ever get fans on board with a double pin. A time limit draw? Sure. A double DQ or count out? Nobody’s favorite finish, but they move on quickly. But you want to make fans viscerally upset? Double pin, all the way. THEY WILL NOT ACCEPT IT.

And I do think that has something to do with how difficult they are to contrive in such a manner that *feels* like a real finish. (And Ospreay/Ricochet last night clearly fell well short of that.)

But I’ll also never forget AJ Styles and Paul London working one of the most logically and meticulously built double pins I’ve ever seen in ROH, and even the ROH fans—the most logical and meticulous of fans—fucking hated it.

[Craig H]

I’m my entire life of watching wrestling from 4 until now, so like 40 freaking years, I have always, ALWAYS hated the double pin whether if it was like that Ricochet and Ospreay did or a German duplex double pin, a cradle, or whatever. It always sucks. I would rather Takeshita come out and blast both dudes when they were asking to run it back than have the match restart and end like it did.

It's also time to belt up Takeshita.

And the opener was probably one reason why the main event felt a little flat. It wasn’t the same, but the way each were booked felt similar enough to the point where it was just a bad bookend. 

It doesn’t help that Danielson is at the point where he just can’t go. He’d be better off doing what he said he was going to do years ago and wrestle like Nagata or MiSu or ZSJ but he’s fully going out on his shield to the point where either Mox vs Danielson is going to be a Vader like squash or it will be like Vader vs Flair and Danielson sneaks out with a victory and then I guess drops the title to Darby.

[HarryArchieGus]

5 hours ago, Matt D said:

Despite myself, I watched Ricochet vs Ospreay.

• Yes, it's 2010s nostalgia to a degree, but for one match on a celebratory show to highlight, in part, what helped shape a current style and what made their new hire notable, you can't entirely fault them for it.
• It wasn't entirely 50/50, your move, my move. The counter sequences came in bursts generally and then after that someone had control for a bit. It was played up as the wrestler not in control trying to fire back and then both of them trying to counter one another at speed. Normally, it'd annoy me, but I buy into it as strategy and just what these two would do as wrestlers. Yes, almost nothing they did in a good chunk of the match would make a lick of sense if the other one wasn't charging at them, but it made full sense that they'd be charging at one another.
• The looks on their faces is what made the match, not the counters or the moves. Ospreay played to the crowd well. He was into moments. Ricochet was clearly expressing his frustration and a competitive antagonism. Sometimes it was over the top and not nuanced enough but he's shaking off some of the old trappings.
• For the most part, they sold. There were a few times that they popped up too quickly, but it was generally because they were hitting a key story beat. More problems on move economy later though.
• Maybe it was a half step slow but I think in some ways that almost helped the match. It rarely felt like they were just waiting for one another for instance, and it put just a tiny patina of grit on it. There were one of two things which didn't end up being smooth and I think they actually added to the match. I'm left wondering Ospreay's stumble on the guardrail right before the early 'rana off the it was intentional or not. It made the match better. My guess is that it wasn't.
• The crowd wasn't great but you can't really blame them. This was babyface vs babyface in a nostalgia match. The wrestlers were at least miming competitiveness but the fans just wanted to see cool stuff. It's almost a testament to them that they were reacting to anything in the match even if only from a sensation standpoint and not actual emotional engagement. They really didn't like the double pin. They really hated the Takeshita interference. Maybe if they loved the double pin, I'd feel otherwise.
• I don't entirely think there was the proper sense of escalation in the match. If you mapped it out as a narrative, highs and lows and peaks and builds, I don't think you'd get a completely coherent story. In any specific moment or one minute period you'd probably be fine. But it was supposed to be something of a sprint before the double pin and the quick restart to get heat on Takeshita to set up the PPV. I had no problem with the finish as it was purposeful except for that I don't actually buy that taking both guys out for the double pin. We've seen Ospreay survive a ton more. That double pin didn't feel earned because you can't necessarily work out the value of anything in a match like this. What's a poison-rana worth? What's a Hidden Blade worth? What if Ricochet is the one doing it? Etc. I think that's why people have a problem with the finish as much as anything else. 

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Re: Ricochet/Ospreay: Let me delve a little more actually because I'm still working through it and I can't post this anywhere else.

My biggest issue is that because you can't tell what any move is supposed to mean in the grand scheme of things and relative to anything else ("move economy"), the double pin felt unbelievable and gimmicky and just because they needed it. It felt against every other Ospreay match I've seen this year where he just survives so so much.

I think the purpose behind it was perfectly fine. By restarting the match they manipulated the crowd into thinking "Oh! We were about to get robbed of what we wanted, but now we're going to get it! The grand finale fireworks stretch!" and then it was IMMEDIATELY snatched from them by Takeshita.

So in some ways the existing grand finale before the double pin being a little subdued and not being stuff that would really put Ospreay away kind of worked because it set the stage for the screwjob, but it only worked on paper (and maybe in the moment) because it had issues in reality. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

But I can't figure out how to explain that to anyone in a succinct way. Does it even make sense?

Absolutely. I totally agree on the finish. I did think the competitiveness was conveyed strong enough prior. Please do whatever you did here to get over your high flying hang-ups and write on these kind of matches more. 

The finish needed a bit better modern day double noggin knocker to be sure, but also Takeshita should have murdered them both either before the bell of the restart or right at the point of conclusion. 

[Craig H]

Also, I know the talk since Wednesday is that it’s Shane that’s behind all of this stuff with the BCC. I’m not sure what his status with TNA if it’s just a handshake deal or what, but I have a feeling it’s Sami Callahan. I’ll give an outside chance to someone like Josh Barnett, Homicide, or someone else from Danielson’s past that would be effective today.

[Matt D]

Thanks. I watched this thing half to tear it apart, and I do think there are general issues from an endless escalation point of view and there are reasons to show restraint over time to condition the audience BUT I tend to be honest on my views for good or ill.

One last point along those lines.

Ricochet is a new hire. He was hired in part because of the launching point of what he and Ospreay once did. To do it again but less impressively is not a great way to help introduce him to the company and highlight his future there. Not only have you already seen what he can do, he can't even do it as well anymore.

How is that setting him up for success?

[barrybonanza]

13 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Also, I know the talk since Wednesday is that it’s Shane that’s behind all of this stuff with the BCC. I’m not sure what his status with TNA if it’s just a handshake deal or what, but I have a feeling it’s Sami Callahan. I’ll give an outside chance to someone like Josh Barnett, Homicide, or someone else from Danielson’s past that would be effective today.

Moxley in the early BCC 2.0 promos kept referring to himself as The King and I loved the idea of him as the leader of this group. 

The idea of a Higher Power is inherently corny and dilutes the great start the angle has had so far.

The idea that the leader is Shane O'Mac doesn't deserve to be discussed, let alone acted upon. When will Khan learn that aping WWE will not do the company any favours? Not every fired WWE wrestler needs signing. Not every finish needs to have an intereference. I really miss the days where clean finishes were the norm in this company.

[Log]

Has there been any sort of mention of someone higher up than Mox in the current BCC? Even a tease of someone else being in the group?

[Matt D]

1 minute ago, Log said:

Has there been any sort of mention of someone higher up than Mox in the current BCC? Even a tease of someone else being in the group?

I think there was some confusion over Mox saying that he had no choice and it wasn't even about him.

My read on that is that Mox was saying it's not personal but instead about ideals, not that he's a minion of Shane McMahon.

[Curt McGirt]

33 minutes ago, Craig H said:

It doesn’t help that Danielson is at the point where he just can’t go. He’d be better off doing what he said he was going to do years ago and wrestle like Nagata or MiSu or ZSJ but he’s fully going out on his shield to the point where either Mox vs Danielson is going to be a Vader like squash or it will be like Vader vs Flair and Danielson sneaks out with a victory and then I guess drops the title to Darby.

This is funny because I rewatched Danielson/ZSJ this morning as it was on the DVR from last night and there is no way that I could ever say he can't go anymore. Maybe after another injury, but that match was the highest level professional wrestling possible. 

Now insofar as the Ospreay/Ricochet match goes, it felt to me like they did the double pin so they can go to the well again and squeze another match out of the two. Maybe some tags, as well. Now whether it worked or not to the viewer...

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

2 hours ago, Technico Support said:

I can't wait for Mox to pull some shit so Darby can cry HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT!

Fuck, now I'm laughing to myself about the awkward Walt/Skylar/Jesse frozen dinner dinner.  "Whatever happened to like, truth in advertising yo?"

Now I can't unsee Darby and Sting as Jesse and Mr. White and I'm hoping some freaks at deviantart already cooked it up

[HarryArchieGus]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Thanks. I watched this thing half to tear it apart, and I do think there are general issues from an endless escalation point of view and there are reasons to show restraint over time to condition the audience BUT I tend to be honest on my views for good or ill.

One last point along those lines.

Ricochet is a new hire. He was hired in part because of the launching point of what he and Ospreay once did. To do it again but less impressively is not a great way to help introduce him to the company and highlight his future there. Not only have you already seen what he can do, he can't even do it as well anymore.

How is that setting him up for success?

I'm seeing enough of this sentiment to know it's valid, but this also presumes that the majority of viewers are comparative Ospreay v Ricochet shoppers.

I think they've done a very good job introducing Ricochet. Break down the Guevara and Beast matches when you get a chance. I always find Ric to be an engaging hard worker with incredible footwork. I'm curious to see an example of what ppl were expecting? Is there a NJPW or PWG bout I could watch to then be able to see what a half speed scrub he's become?

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

I think there was some confusion over Mox saying that he had no choice and it wasn't even about him.

My read on that is that Mox was saying it's not personal but instead about ideals, not that he's a minion of Shane McMahon.

I thought exactly Shane McMahon. 

Part of me always welcomes big debuts and stories, but AEW doesn't have a great track record with BIG stories. I welcome the enthuisasm or interest Shane McMahon appearing might bring, but I'm really fucking wary. Like most here I imagine, was never much of a Shane-o-Mac fan. The worst of his runs I've only really ever read about, but they frighten me. 

Edited October 4, 2024 by HarryArchieGus

[tbarrie]

3 hours ago, Matt D said:

I think the purpose behind [the Ricochet/Ospreay double pin] was perfectly fine. By restarting the match they manipulated the crowd into thinking "Oh! We were about to get robbed of what we wanted, but now we're going to get it! The grand finale fireworks stretch!" and then it was IMMEDIATELY snatched from them by Takeshita.

Which in my opinion was a gutsy move, because in 2024 I'd kind of expect the fans to get pissed at the promotion itself over something like this. But the "asshole" chants directed at Takeshita suggests that it put the heat on Takeshita, where they wanted it.

3 hours ago, Matt D said:

But I can't figure out how to explain that to anyone in a succinct way. Does it even make sense?

Yes.

[barrybonanza]

1 hour ago, Log said:

Has there been any sort of mention of someone higher up than Mox in the current BCC? Even a tease of someone else being in the group?

This line from Excalibur.

 

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/GkslF18FGok

[HarryArchieGus]

I loved this show. The Ospreay v Ricochet opener was outstanding. As I've said, my first viewing of Ricochet was 2019 NXT, and I've enjoyed watching him since starting back with HHHversionWWETV. I thought both guys looked smooth as silk. I bought the competitiveness and thought they fought each other plenty hard enough to buy any flights of fancy. My thoughts on the finish have been expressed already. I hate first fall 3 ways, especially for title matches, but I kinda like this story. I presume Takeshita wins this and v Okada becomes a feud for the Inter-Continental Title. Or that's what I hope. TV Time with Briscoe was a solid piece of business. I kinda think Mark will get a good match out of Jericho. Oh man, that Darby Allin promo was excellent. Darby has come a long way with his mic work. Hanger v Juice was an excellent TV match. Juice has found himself a good position. The post match Jay White return was excellent. Greasy Jay White as a babyface seems to work, but does feel absurd. I loved Deeb v Baker. I thought both worked hard and provided a nice solid 'Wrestling' match. Aminata's run-in would have been better served more organically without music. Schiavone goofing on Nigel for the 'Thank You' was terribly funny. The Hook promo was very good. He draws some laughs for the melodrama, but it feels like he's figuring some things out. The Mariah May-Willow confrontation was excellent. As was Mariah during the Deeb-Baker match tho we should have seen her more (or had her hilarity on commentary). She's the true excellence of execution. Willow pairing off with Mariah for the top prize is exactly where I want this division to be. Stan Hansen says 'Youth!!!!' Private Party squash was pretty weak. Cassidy did fine with the mic. The Bucks heeling was tremendous. Please, like Brandi's nightmare collective before him, end this embarrassing Chris Daniels 'Interim EVP' run. Why on earth did they have Private Party play cannon fodder to the BCC to then move them into a tag title shot? All the while the Outrunners are on ROHTV. I find this creative strategy problematic. MVP promos were again excellent. I like Mone running with P. WIld hearing the massive pop for Shelton Benjamin. I hope they find him a Charlie Haas to tag with. I bet Moriarty would look great in a suit. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I kinda love this signing. Okada v Danielson was such a treat. I'm very much with @JLowe...

21 hours ago, JLowe said:

Have to admit, I was really into the idea of Okada doing Memphis-style stalling and stooging. Instead, we get a pretty straight-forward match where it’s not just Okada trying to run out the 20-minute clock. These guys work together really well, stiff, great timing, really convincing reversals. The backslide clean pin was a huge shock for me.

I didn't love the backslide. For me this pin needed that little extra that Darby's or Yuta's pin finishes have. I did like the post match angle. The mic work was fine if a bit hammy, but they all played their parts well. I love heel Moggsley. 5! 5! 5! 

Edited October 4, 2024 by HarryArchieGus

[tbarrie]

18 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Willow pairing off with Mariah for the top prize is exactly where I want this division to be.

This is kind of nitpicky, but it's where I want the division to be in, like, a year's time. I'm totally down with Willow taking the title off of Mariah, but not until Mariah has had a good long reign.

Of course, Willow is over enough that losing to Mariah in the near future won't derail her to the point that she couldn't challenge again and win in late 2025.

[Go2Sleep]

The only way a BCC Higher Power angle could really work played straight is if Regal was coming back.

Shane-O would be a big OMG moment, but tough to imagine any real follow-up that isn't another doomed invasion type angle.

Can't even think of anyone else that would make sense. Wheeler? Omega? TK? Bryan himself trying to do that Pentagon/Vampiro angle from LU S1?

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

I think I'll like the finish to Danielson/Okada better if it leads to Okada having beef with the BCC.  Because their distraction led to him losing an AEW title match AND his rubber match against Danielson.....him and The Bucks should be absolutely furious at the BCC right now.....

I had mixed feelings on the show.  I didn't like the double BS finish to the opener, I didn't like the finish to the main event, and I largely didn't like the bulk of the show outside of the action in the 3 big matches (Hangman and Juice was great).  I might have set my expectations too high but nothing about the show felt big or special or 5 year anniversary-y outside of the big opening and closing matches, but then you make them less memorable via the finishes (or memorable in a bad way).  I was expecting more retrospective video packages, promo packages from talent talking about the 5 years of Dynamite.....there was just so much more they could have done to make the entire show feel special rather than just another Dynamite.  Tony loves all-star tags.....why not a 10 man tag featuring AEW originals?  I just thought there was a lack of creativity across the show and I came away from it feeling down on the product and wishing Tony hadn't hired so many ex-WWE production people on what should have been a celebratory night

Like I didn't think that Private Party squash/angle belonged there at all and I actually like Private Party, but they haven't been built up enough.  The stuff with BCC felt like the start of a rebrand not something that immediately vaults them into a title program (when they were just losing to MXM a couple weeks ago).  Then Shibata is running in and they're booking a 6 man for Rampage and I was just like "this sucks".  This entire segment sucked.  I also have a pet theory that Pepperman has been given the tag division to ruin more or less and it's resulted in things like Top Flight dressed as pilots and the MXM push

[odessasteps]

Bring in Meltzer to be the higher power. 

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

3 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Bring in Meltzer to be the higher power. 

where's my damn tildebang....found it!

~BUYS!!!!!

[Kevin Wilson]

2 hours ago, barrybonanza said:

This line from Excalibur.

 

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/GkslF18FGok

Right, this is what I was going to quote too. Wrestlers may mis-speak on the mic but commentators are just there to help fans with the storylines. So this wasn't a slip but was a pre-planned line, I'd put some real stock into it.

Doesn't mean I think its Shane, I think Josh Barnett is more likely. Imagine if its Bischoff or Cornette though!

[Matt D]

I read it as “What bs are you spewing? You’re in control of your actions!” Not “Who is pulling the strings?”

[Kevin Wilson]

6 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I read it as “What bs are you spewing? You’re in control of your actions!” Not “Who is pulling the strings?”

But the line is "Who is forcing Jon Moxley's hand in all this?"  Maybe we are overthinking it but if he had said "What" is forcing Moxley's hand...  ok, maybe it could be some mental thing like he is going crazy but him saying "who" certainly implies there is another person involved. And its possible its not a 'leader' but I do think it will lead to another person showing up that they sell as influencing Mox.

[Technico Support]

2 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Bring in Meltzer to be the higher power. 

The initial promo would take an hour.

"We''ll, ya know it's like, it was me, Danielson, but like, that reminds me of a, it's like, you know, an angle they did in San Antonio in 1972, like, ya know..."

[Hamhock]

34 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

The initial promo would take an hour.

"We''ll, ya know it's like, it was me, Danielson, but like, that reminds me of a, it's like, you know, an angle they did in San Antonio in 1972, like, ya know..."

Fuck it - bring Alvarez out to complain to Dave that it doesn’t make any sense, and they then have a ten-minute argument about whether or not Dave and Moxley are heels and whether or not it matters, until the show awkwardly ends as the credits roll over them still arguing even though their mics have been cut off.