R.I.P. Willie Mays

[dogwelder]

 

[odessasteps]

 

[supremebve]

There are very few credible answers to who is the greatest baseball player ever.  Willie Mays is one of them.  If you try to tell me that any baseball player was better than Willie Mays, their name better be Babe, Ted, or Hank, or you probably don't have a decent case.  He is on the short list of greatest American athletes of all time, and is one of the few athletes that you never hear a bad word about.  Rest in peace to a truly legendary sports figure and American Hero.  

[BobbyWhioux]

only the Korean War stopped Mays from becoming the Home Run King.

the Definition of the 5 Tool Player.

[supremebve]

31 minutes ago, BobbyWhioux said:

only the Korean War stopped Mays from becoming the Home Run King.

the Definition of the 5 Tool Player.

I think Mays is probably the best baseball player ever based on the fact that there is not a single part of baseball where he was not excellent.  Mays is a hall-of-fame average hitter, power hitter, fielder, baserunner, and he had a rocket arm.  I think the closest to Mays is Aaron, who was a slightly better hitter (for my money Aaron is the best hitter of all time when you consider everything you want a hitter to do) but a worse defender.  Ruth was so much better than everyone else he played against that he put up incredible numbers, but both Mays and Aaron were better all-around players.  Ted Williams is the other plater in the conversation, but he was not nearly the defender or base runner that Mays and Aaron were.  

[odessasteps]

I think Ruth also being a pitcher gives him debate points over the others. I certainly don’t have a problem with a top five with Mays, Ruth, Aaron, Gibson and one other that could change from the usual candidates.

[supremebve]

9 hours ago, odessasteps said:

I think Ruth also being a pitcher gives him debate points over the others. I certainly don’t have a problem with a top five with Mays, Ruth, Aaron, Gibson and one other that could change from the usual candidates.

Pedro might be the best out-of-the-box player to put here.  His peak was so high that he legit may be the best pitcher ever.  There are a couple of guys who should be on this list...but we don't put them on this list.  Barry Bonds is absolutely in this conversation, Roger Clemens is also in this conversation, and fucking A-Rod is absolutely in this conversation.  

[Pete]

11 hours ago, BobbyWhioux said:

only the Korean War stopped Mays from becoming the Home Run King.

the Definition of the 5 Tool Player.

Playing in Candlestick for 15 years probably didn't help either. Imagine him as a Cub with that wind at Wrigley blowing out every summer...

[Kuetsar]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Playing in Candlestick for 15 years probably didn't help either. Imagine him as a Cub with that wind at Wrigley blowing out every summer...

Imagine if he stayed in the Polo Grounds. . . .

[odessasteps]

2 hours ago, supremebve said:

Pedro might be the best out-of-the-box player to put here.  His peak was so high that he legit may be the best pitcher ever.  There are a couple of guys who should be on this list...but we don't put them on this list.  Barry Bonds is absolutely in this conversation, Roger Clemens is also in this conversation, and fucking A-Rod is absolutely in this conversation.  

I would put Maddox on a list before Clemens. I also biasedly would say Ichiro could be in the top ten but maybe not much higher. 

[Kuetsar]

2 hours ago, supremebve said:

Pedro might be the best out-of-the-box player to put here.  His peak was so high that he legit may be the best pitcher ever.  There are a couple of guys who should be on this list...but we don't put them on this list.  Barry Bonds is absolutely in this conversation, Roger Clemens is also in this conversation, and fucking A-Rod is absolutely in this conversation.  

Cobb was better than any of guys you listed. . . .

[odessasteps]

I saw the topic of “greatest living ballplayer” is now being discussed on social media, which I did wonder about last night.

names I saw: Bonds, Rose, Griffey, Koufax (of course), Pedro, Rickey. 
 

also, Luis Aparicio is now the older living HOF.

[odessasteps]

 

[Cobra Commander]

Wonder how many really great Willie Mays plays were lost to time because MLB didn’t realize for a long time that they really should film their games

[odessasteps]

true with so many people in the pre TV era, be it Mays, Josh Gibson, Bronco Nagurski, Jim Thorpe, or even Steangler Lewis or Jim Londos.

[Cobra Commander]

NFL Films might be an overwhelming exception to the rule

[odessasteps]

It probably helped that there are so few games, relatively speaking, compared to the other major North American sports. And even then, it was not started until the early 1960s. Shows how it helps to have a forward thinking commissioner like Pete Rozelle in charge. 

[supremebve]

2 hours ago, Kuetsar said:

Cobb was better than any of guys you listed. . . .

Cobb was great, and an incredible hitter,  but his lack of power keeps him off of my list. Aaron is my greatest hitter of all time because he was the best hitter for every situation. Not only is #1 all time in total bases,  he had 8 individual seasons he was #1. Both Aaron and Cobb have 15 seasons in the top 10, but Aaron was top 5 in all but one. Cobb also played against lesser competition. Aaron isn't just #1, he's #1 by over 600 bases. He's the most consistently excellent hitter who has ever picked up a bat. No one was better day-to-day for a longer time than Hank Aaron. He is remembered as the Home Run King,  but he's 3rd all time in hits, first in RBIs and finished his career with a .305 average. His ability to not just hit,  but to hit for average while being the best extra base hitter ever is why I'll take Hank Aaron over any other hitter in history. 

[Kuetsar]

6 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Cobb was great, and an incredible hitter,  but his lack of power keeps him off of my list. Aaron is my greatest hitter of all time because he was the best hitter for every situation. Not only is #1 all time in total bases,  he had 8 individual seasons he was #1. Both Aaron and Cobb have 15 seasons in the top 10, but Aaron was top 5 in all but one. Cobb also played against lesser competition. Aaron isn't just #1, he's #1 by over 600 bases. He's the most consistently excellent hitter who has ever picked up a bat. No one was better day-to-day for a longer time than Hank Aaron. He is remembered as the Home Run King,  but he's 3rd all time in hits, first in RBIs and finished his career with a .305 average. His ability to not just hit,  but to hit for average while being the best extra base hitter ever is why I'll take Hank Aaron over any other hitter in history. 

The top five is some combo of Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Cobb and Musial? With Williams and speaker just below. And Cobb had some power, he just didn't care for hrs. . . .

[Tabe]

3 hours ago, odessasteps said:

I would put Maddox on a list before Clemens. I also biasedly would say Ichiro could be in the top ten but maybe not much higher. 

I love Ichiro but his combo of no power + not walking enough keep him out of the discussion. 

[odessasteps]

That’s how I am with Tony. My favorite player but he’s in the next level down HOF tier.

[supremebve]

31 minutes ago, Kuetsar said:

The top five is some combo of Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Cobb and Musial? With Williams and speaker just below. And Cobb had some power, he just didn't care for hrs. . . .

Yeah,  supermodels aren't my type either. Otherwise I'd be the all time leader in dating supermodels. My argument against Cobb, Gwynn, and Ichiro is based purely on the fact that the object of the game is to score runs not to get on base. Aaron,  Ruth, Mays, and Bonds all played to score runs. No matter how great you are at hitting,  you'll lose points on your average producing runs. 

Musial is the best baseball player no one ever talks about as the best baseball player ever. He's absolutely worthy of the conversation. Pujols is probably the next best player no one mentions. He was terrible for about a decade,  and still ended up with 3384 hits and 703 homers. That's how good his prime was. He's Hank Aaron if instead of being great forever he was incredible for half his career and average for the other half. 

[Cobra Commander]

4 hours ago, odessasteps said:

It probably helped that there are so few games, relatively speaking, compared to the other major North American sports. And even then, it was not started until the early 1960s. Shows how it helps to have a forward thinking commissioner like Pete Rozelle in charge. 

also NFL coach game film was a big thing.. if there was a cache of MLB game films like the recordings of radio calls

[odessasteps]

 

[odessasteps]