Double or Nothing V - 5/28/2023

[Coletti]

Recent NJPW results show that Shooter is at least BCC affiliated, if not a full on member. Just throwing that out there. 

[JLowe]

23 minutes ago, The Natural said:

At the press conference, MJF had his forearm taped up. Legit injury from the top rope powerbomb spot with Darby Allin. Can't remember who reported it, PWInsider or SRS.

I mean, MJF lives and breathes kayfabe. The way he was holding his left forearm/wrist and favoring it after that spot has me thinking it was a legit injury, and yet there was one moment (I think when he pulled the ring from his trunks) that he seemed to have no problems.

I'm wondering how Jade's ribs are after botching the springboard lungblower spot.

[Just Dave]

21 minutes ago, christopher.annino said:

Recent NJPW results show that Shooter is at least BCC affiliated, if not a full on member. Just throwing that out there. 

That would be the shit. Love me some Shooter…

[Octopus]

47 minutes ago, just drew said:

It’s like some of y’all ( @LF2)don’t understand that I don’t slander adam Cole because I’m jealous of his luscious hair. I am, but that’s not why. I slander him because he isn’t very good. He’s about the least believable “tough guy” on the roster and he got exposed badly by Chris Jericho, of all people. It’s also funny how he’s perceived as this “workrate god” by certain corners of the internet and yet the second the guy across the ring from him is anything less than fantastic, that shit goes right out the window. At what point do we all stop making excuses for adam Cole and just admit that he’s a product of hype and having a brand built specifically to make him look good for however many years?

I did not watch this match so can’t comment. I usually post on Cole to tease you more so then defend him. I’m not a big fan, outside of how lovable he was on UUDD playing Uno against Claudio (they got me through the pandemic, along with T90Official narrating Age of Enpires 2 matches and Grand Poobear playing Mario Maker 2) so I do have a level of respect for how he comes across outside of the ring. He isn’t really one of my guys and also I didn’t dig deep enough to maybe find some Indy classics, it just didn’t hit for me. I will defend his Suplex to Knee move he does because those knees are razor sharp. 
One thing he does have going for him (which I feel works 100% better as a heel) is his in ring and during segment charisma. As a piece of shit dirtbag he just comes across so greasy and I want to punch him. It’s likely why Vince wanted him to be a manager. Yes, in real life he is likable, but he also comes across dopey and he’s the most teased guy on UUDD for making silly plays and quickly forgetting what the others players have. He’s a goofball and he’s kind. I’d rather him be a dick than a rough n tough girlfriend protector. 
Part of me wishes he could be a heel and try less to be like Shawn Michaels and more like (hmmmmm, who should I say?) um Piper? 
IDK, I’m mostly rambling and don’t have a point. He has an interesting fan base that is super into him. Very small sample size but his shirts I’d see people wear at breweries and around town. Is it the spots? The charisma? I could reach out and ask people. Like Gargano, he is a HHH and HBK guy, but probably not a Vince guy. Maybe he’s a Tony guy. I’ve been close a few time to write a piece on him. There is something there. It’s not for me, but idk. 

No to be held here because it is too off topic of the PPV, it’d be interesting to compile a list of the style babies of different workers. Who came in and modeled themselves after HBK, Mysterio, Foley, Funk, Graham, Hart, Danielson, etc.

[Teflon Turtle]

For those who haven't followed NJPW this year, Umino is indeed affiliated with BCC; a few members are teaming up with him in Japan for Dominion next week. Shooter's also in a bit of a feud with Okada right now, which is getting heated. Further, Omega teamed up with Okada at New Year Dash this past January, so there would be precedent for Omega being able to put the call on him/it would make sense for Okada to keep the fight with Umino going.

Ibushi is the obvious choice, of course. I can't recall if Okada has ever bled in a match...I'm having a hard time imagining him doing something like Blood & Guts or anything similar to it, even as great at wrestling as he is. Plus, if you want to keep things going in to the summer, I'd bet a Golden Lovers match at Wembley would bring in even more ticket sales. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Teflon Turtle

[EVA]

I love that we’re less than 2 weeks removed from the really good FCA match with Roddy, and we’re already back to the “Jericho should retire” discourse. This man gets zero leeway lol. Absolutely no benefit of the doubt.

Edited May 29, 2023 by EVA

[Fighting a man with a perm]

Just jumping in to say my absolute highlight of the show was Trent going full Secret Service to take the bullet (and elimination) for OC thus proving once again that they are the BEST friends for good reason.

[Octopus]

17 minutes ago, EVA said:

I love that we’re less than 2 weeks removed from the really good FCA match with Roddy, and we’re already back to the “Jericho should retire” discourse. This man gets zero leeway lol. Absolutely no benefit of the doubt.

I think more people are crapping on Cole than Jericho, but I do agree with you for the most part. Especially with storylines, just like when Cody was here, the blame gets out on the worker instead of the booker. Jericho has a pretty good track record of having good matches throughout every year of AEW.

[StuntmanCrowley]

the beating Jericho took against Ishii earned him another few years from me, no matter what he does.

[JLowe]

1 hour ago, EVA said:

I love that we’re less than 2 weeks removed from the really good FCA match with Roddy, and we’re already back to the “Jericho should retire” discourse. This man gets zero leeway lol. Absolutely no benefit of the doubt.

Hey, I said that the only redeeming quality of the Cole match was the beating Jericho took! He had a few nasty welts from the kendo stick shots and a post-match shiner (although I guess that could have been makeup).

[Dolphman 3000]

1 hour ago, Octopus said:

I think more people are crapping on Cole than Jericho, but I do agree with you for the most part. Especially with storylines, just like when Cody was here, the blame gets out on the worker instead of the booker. Jericho has a pretty good track record of having good matches throughout every year of AEW.

My first thought when watching that mess was "Jericho took everyone out drinking in Vegas the night before and he told Cole not to worry about planning the match"

Sabu came out of it looking better than anyone

Edited May 29, 2023 by Dolphman 3000

[Just Dave]

9 hours ago, LF2 said:

Even as an Adam Cole fan I thought it sounded beyond terrible based on the recap from Meltzers site. I don’t see how that finish was supposed to make him look like more of a badass. 

I did the same thing you’re doing too. I decided to save my money for Forbidden Door (and what I’m assuming is an MJF vs Okada main event based on the media scrum). 

That’s because there’s no way to make adam Cole look like a badass. It can’t be done. There’s no shame in him being what he is, he just isn’t that.

[Octopus]

40 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

My first thought when watching that mess was "Jericho took everyone out drinking in Vegas the night before and he told Cole not to worry about planning the match"

Sabu came out of it looking better than anyone

To be fair, Sabu is pretty great.

[TheVileOne]

I also tilted my head over the Wild Thing singer's mask. The band is Violent Idols, and the singer routinely wears a facial mask. Did it look awkward? Yes.  Not sure it was intentional, but they maybe should've chosen a different color or style for the segment.

Jericho and Cole laid an egg on PPV. Not the end of the world. Jericho's still pretty good for his age, but he's still in his 50s and can't work like he did even 20 years ago. I think the feud itself is good, but I don't think they were really ready to put on an unsanctioned match. Not to mention, they were on a card with a ladder match, a no DQ Fatal 4-Way, and an anything-goes hardcore match.

Edited May 29, 2023 by TheVileOne

[hobo joe]

Jade issuing an open challenge only to be squashed by a returning Statlander is exactly how her title reign should’ve ended. Especially when you consider how historically bad they’ve been at building to Jade matches. 

[Matt D]

I'm midway through the PPV. Quick, quick thoughts:

• I liked the Buy-in Match. I know people complain about the Hardys but Matt is still very good in there. A little slow but everything is measured and looks credible and matters. He stands out on the roster; to some people, it's in a bad way and to me it's in a good way. It's only if he gives in on the criticism that he does stupid stuff. Jeff's a hot mess but that means he can play with people's perceptions like with the ankle. Very Sabu-ish and fitting I guess.
• Battle Royal was excellently laid out. Spot after spot. Character bit after character bit. I'll write it up tonight for SC. I didn't love Swerve vs OC actually. I thought they brought out the worst in one another. I know you guys were into it, but I'm not looking forward to that match, even if I liked Swerve overall in the match.
• I skipped Cole vs Jericho. I'm not even going to joke about it.
• FTR vs Triple J had a good finishing stretch but maybe went a bit long before that. I wasn't feeling the drama. Also, Dax in opening stretches is problematic. He's just not hitting stuff like he did a couple of years ago and hopefully they end up as heels soon where he can let Dash do a lot of that and just grind down on people. Can't wait for the follow up to the guitar shot on Aubrey.
• I kind of feel like you guys are sleeping on Christian vs Wardlow. It was better than I was expecting given your talking and the gimmick. I would have rather seen a straight up match but they had some clever spots and it rationalized Christian staying in it. I though the finish with Wardlow catching Christian off the ladder right into the power bomb was tremendous. Just an all time ladder match finish and I'm not sure why it's not getting more love. Wardlow's dive should be in the opening of everything but then I feel like Jungle Boy's cage dive is forgotten so who knows.

[John E. Dynamite]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

 

• I skipped Cole vs Jericho. I'm not even going to joke about it.
• ...Just an all time ladder match finish and I'm not sure why it's not getting more love.

Lord knows I don't want to tell you how to do your job-hobby as you do it as well as any of us, but the reason Wardlow/Cage isn't getting more love probably has something to do with Cole/Jericho. There were live viewers noticing the crowd being off during the opening matches (some reports of the crowd filling in late fwiw), but Cole/Jericho was a straight up ice bath.

It's simultaneously the closest thing an AEW PPV has had to a momentum killing late-stage Vince McMahon booking disaster, while also being a workrate failure due simultaneous issues with Jericho's up-and-down old-man physical state + dramatic excesses & Adam Cole's worst-of-the-worst physical believability + indie proclivities. You can equally dog Jericho because he's booking his own stuff as you can Cole for like, NOT BEING ABLE TO UNDO A CHAIN AROUND HIS ANKLE and making the bad planned finish exponentially worse? There's a palpable sense of betrayal from the crowd when two established stars drop a turd like this on an AEW PPV. And then you've got the fact that so much of the other matches were based around shenanigans and run ins and plunder, even though Sabu and Britt were the high points of the match. 

The first two-thirds of the show can't really be understood unless you know how bad this was. It's legitimately interesting how many ways it failed both itself and the card as a whole. I understand modern wrestling better for having seen it. Even more interesting when you think Jericho vs. Roderick Strong from a couple of weeks ago was a similar match that was a thousand times better. I'm not telling you to put this on immediately, but if you're ever in the mood for an academic hate-watch this one contains multitudes of things to ponder. And it still isn't worse than what Matt Hardy did to All Out 2020.

Edited May 30, 2023 by John E. Dynamite

[Matt D]

8 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Lord knows I don't want to tell you how to do your job-hobby as you do it as well as any of us, but the reason Wardlow/Cage isn't getting more love probably has something to do with Cole/Jericho. There were live viewers noticing the crowd being off during the opening matches (some reports of the crowd filling in late fwiw), but Cole/Jericho was a straight up ice bath.

It's simultaneously the closest thing an AEW PPV has had to a momentum killing late-stage Vince McMahon booking disaster, while also being a workrate failure due simultaneous issues with Jericho's up-and-down old-man physical state + dramatic excesses & Adam Cole's worst-of-the-worst physical believability + indie proclivities. You can equally dog Jericho because he's booking his own stuff as you can Cole for like, NOT BEING ABLE TO UNDO A CHAIN AROUND HIS ANKLE and making the bad planned finish exponentially worse? There's a palpable sense of betrayal from the crowd when two established stars drop a turd like this on an AEW PPV. And then you've got the fact that so much of the other matches were based around shenanigans and run ins and plunder, even though Sabu and Britt were the high points of the match. 

The first two-thirds of the show can't really be understood unless you know how bad this was. It's legitimately interesting how many ways it failed both itself and the card as a whole. I understand modern wrestling better for having seen it. Even more interesting when you think Jericho vs. Roderick Strong from a couple of weeks ago was a similar match that was a thousand times better. I'm not telling you to put this on immediately, but if you're ever in the mood for an academic hate-watch this one contains multitudes of things to ponder. And it still isn't worse than what Matt Hardy did to All Out 2020.

So it wasn't until midway through the trios match that I fully realized that this was probably the case. The trios match was really good! Really, really good. Good ideas, great execution, awesome timing, some really strong character bits, a totally unique match up that worked for its uniqueness, with some really compelling stuff having to do with the rules like Bowens having to use the ropes to power out of the leglock, etc. Just a really good face-in-peril with a lot of hope spots and cut offs. They also saved the body part working for that match when it might have helped with the Triple J tag and I can see why. And it's obvious that no one had recovered yet by that point.

I'm rarely in the mood for an academic hate-watch, but maybe next time I lose a bet.

(I don't have a lot to say about Hayter vs Storm, btw, save for that they did a good job covering if Hayter was really hurt and she actually came off pretty well protected considering it was just a few minutes).

So I think this might be a case where you're right and the middle of the PPV was actually quite good but everyone was Shane McMahon vs Undertaker HITC traumatized.

[Krone]

FWIW, I really liked Adam Cole in NXT and his match with Johnny Gargano at TakeOver: New York was one of my favorite matches of 2019. However, I don't know if I liked him because he was that scummy heel with a stable behind him to help pull the load or if it was because he had a lot more smaller guys to work with like Velveteen Dream, Gargano, Pete Dunne, Matt Riddle. I just don't think he's imposing enough against the bigger guys and doesn't have that tenacity that someone like a Danielson has. Couple that with his moves like the Panama Sunrise (which btw was absolutely AWFUL last night) that do seem indyriffic, I just don't think he's connecting with me like he once was. I really hope he isn't next in line to win the title tbh because I think there are much better candidates. It also doesn't help that he's in the same company as Darby Allin now who just throws his body around worse than Mick Foley in his prime that shows that violence.

[Dolphman 3000]

20 minutes ago, Krone said:

It also doesn't help that he's in the same company as Darby Allin now who just throws his body around worse than Mick Foley in his prime that shows that violence.

Cole has admitted that on the first day of wrestling training, DJ Hyde had him and other students bumping on concrete

You can take the man out of CZW, but you can't take the CZW out of the man

[NoFistsJustFlips]

For fuck's sake how can they end Honky Tonk's historic IC Title reign with NO BUILD? Ugh what an utter disgrace of a booking decision!!11!!!! They should have had Warrior calling him out with Honky Tonk dodging him for weeks with different excuses!

Lol just a little exaggerated but food for thought. Sometimes fans get stuck too deep in the conventional wisdom bubble. Just because things happen a certain way more often than not doesn't mean when something different happens it's bad. Jade's loss was actually one of the best bits of booking they've done. She didn't get destroyed. She didn't get ruined. She doesn't have the stink of failure on her for losing. Ryback was dead when he lost to Punk. Goldberg was mostly dead when he lost to Nash. Jade is still protected and can easily say it was a fluke and still move up the ladder due to the manor she lost. Stat also gets a giant shot in the arm right out of the return gate.

Wrestling needs surprises. This was a perfectly done one. It almost had the buzz of a surprise MITB cash in. It was just a great piece of business and a creative way to past Jade's streak and not turn her into just another person.

[username]

I will go the other way and say that you basically waste a multi-year win streak not by having them lose to a surprise, but have it happen after they already wrestled a match. Can you imagine if Joe's win streak, or Goldberg's, or whoever's ended after they already wrestled a match and had to unexpectedly wrestle another with no preparation? Can you imagine if that was how Roman's reign were to end? I'll also note there's a reason most of the MITB winners got a pop when they won but weren't particularly successful as champs afterwards.

 

That said Jade's streak had gotten to the rare point that it was actively hurting her in the eyes of people, and it is now seemingly clear that it got extended a year simply because it was written in Tony's notebook that Stat was the next champ and he would not deviate from that at all, so I am fine with a poor idea that just rips that band-aid off than a good one that would have taken another few months. I also don't think it is the level of good/bad idea that'll likely dramatically alter where either of them will be say two years from now. 

[TheVileOne]

Count me in with those on board with the way Jade's streak ended. I think this was the absolute best way to pull it off and to still protect Jade in a loss, along with getting the title off of her and giving Kris Statlander a triumphant, feel-good win to build off her up. 

I just hope this isn't it for Jade. I don't want to see her become just another name on the roster now that her title reign and undefeated streak are over.

Edited May 30, 2023 by TheVileOne

[Matt D]

I’m midway through the 4-way (just got through the tandem submissions) and my god is it ever terrible. The least organic thing imaginable. 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I liked the Jade loss. Makes sense to me (having the confetti on stand by for the impromptu match not so much).

Doing Taya that dirty not so much. You build to the match on the basis that she got cheated in the previous match as her finish was banned. It's legal here, and Jade kicks out of it at 2 anyway, pops up, hits the same move for a clean three. Meanwhile, she's gone by the time Stat has come out and beaten Jade. Total afterthought.

I liked the ladder match. That Swanton was nuts. Tony Khan has stopped responding to my tweets wanting him to run with an ArnlyFans gimmick where Arn dresses like a total thot, and if we're not getting CM Punk, we should get Arn's cornhole instead. But if we're going to get Walking Dead Arn instead, I'm pretty cool with that instead.

Billy Gunn refusing to sell for guys is really tiresome for a guy that's supposed to be a coach.