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October 2022 Wrestling Discussion


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31 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I've seen just enough of his stuff to agree emphatically with this. I need to watch more Akira Taue in general. 

I was going to say Taue, but Taue usually pulled his own weight given his limitations (i.e. always being in the right spot).

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2 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I've seen just enough of his stuff to agree emphatically with this. I need to watch more Akira Taue in general. 

As I type this I just finished a Paul Orndorff-Akira Taue match that was a fun watch 

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Taker is a hard one to peg, because so much of his earlier body of work was constrained by his gimmick and paired with questionable opponents. Once he got to break out of the walking corpse mode, he was also getting a better quality of opponent.

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The key for me with Taker would be to go back and see what his stuff with guys like Heidenreich or Khali look like now. Basically what kind of ring general he was by his grizzled veteran phase in matches where he’s unquestionably carrying someone. 

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14 minutes ago, kafkonia said:

Taker is a hard one to peg, because so much of his earlier body of work was constrained by his gimmick and paired with questionable opponents. Once he got to break out of the walking corpse mode, he was also getting a better quality of opponent.

If you watch his stuff in WCW as well I'm guessing some of his pre WCW stuff, he was clearly a hell of a worker. That's why people made a hard push for him to get into WWF and why Ross tried so hard to keep him in WCW. However, Herd didn't see much in him. Outside of weird programs with like The Berzerker and whatnot as well as the Hogan stuff, his first year or so in WWF was basically all enhancement matches. However, according to Prichard, they designed it where he would be doing different things in those enhancement matches which was a nice touch.

The issue was Taker basically being the last of the attraction type wrestler meant he was going to get paired with monsters and other stiffs. When it came time to put on good matches, he could. He just happened to be their reliable utility man.

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6 hours ago, (BP) said:

The key for me with Taker would be to go back and see what his stuff with guys like Heidenreich or Khali look like now. Basically what kind of ring general he was by his grizzled veteran phase in matches where he’s unquestionably carrying someone. 

I remember hearing that stuff like the LMS with Khali had to be heavily edited

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19 hours ago, zendragon said:

Do you put DDP above or below Raven? Raven seems like a guy who was good at taking guys who where better than him (Jericho, Benoit, Saturn) and giving them a road map

Man, that's a tough one, only because I've read over the years that DDP followed the Savage formula of meticulously laying things out ahead of time (probably why their two PPV matches in '97 are so killer) so while I 100% agree with your assessment of Raven, I'm wondering if that's part of the reason he and DDP had such great matches the following year. 

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What's the best argument for Undertaker as smart vet working with someone less established or talented? The Lesnar match from 2002 that people tend to love? The excellent Jeff Hardy ladder match, though Jeff was a seasoned vet by then? The Angle match in 2000 (that I need to revisit as I remember it being very good aside from the goofy finish)?

Edited by SirSmellingtonofCascadia
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2 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

What's the best argument for Undertaker as smart vet working with someone less established or talented? The Lesnar match from 2002 that people tend to love? The excellent Jeff Hardy ladder match, though Jeff was a seasoned vet by then? The Angle match in 2000 (that I need to revisit as I remember it being very good aside from the goofy finish)?

Hell in a Cell with Brock Lesnar at No Mercy 2002. *****.

Honourable mention to the Jeff Hardy ladder match on RAW, 1st July 2002. 

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'Taker/Orton at WM 21 was a fantastic match, laid out nicely. It's a credit to everyone involved that Undertaker and his streak (which I think was heavily promoted for the first time in this match) felt legitimately in danger during the end run.

On another note, I have been thinking about what makes someone "boring" quite a lot recently (again, I have seen a ton of Ted DiBiase the past three or four months), and I get how you feel regarding Orton. He's mechanically sound, but most of what he does mechanically is not at all amplified by how he sells that stuff.

The same thing is true of DiBiase to me. Like, he's in there with Orndorff in Mid-South or Savage in WWF or Tenryu in All Japan and you can't point to his actual work as the issue. The thing is that those other three guys are amplifying a mood to the back of the arena.

For example, Orndorff is a bully jock who is frustrated that he can't overwhelm DiBiase with his elite athleticism like he can most others. Savage is on the edge and might lose his self-control at any moment, and that can work for or against him in unpredictable ways. Tenryu is irritated at DiBiase's strikes, DiBiase's perseverance, DiBiase's pressing him, and that irritation only grows as the match goes along, threatening to spill over into some real violence.

DiBiase leaves no imprint against these guys; he is simply there as the colorless guy whom others contrast sharply to re: making you feel something.

This is exactly Orton's problem, IMO. Even when he was working a distinct gimmick (Legend Killer, on-the-edge sociopath), I'm not sure it ever played particularly well in actual matches. No amount of cheek-puffing or pounding the mat helped. I feel Orton is always play-acting. He never feels like he is either dangerous as a heel, nor in danger as a face. He does stuff in the ring, and some of it is nice, especially RKO counters, but even compare that to DDP Diamond Cutter counters, and DDP actually backed that up by broadcasting why those counters were crucial to his matches. DDP came off like a sneaky heel who would find any opening he could, or like a never-say-die face who would pull a Diamond Cutter out to bring him back from death.

With Orton, it's just like ooh, neat counter! and not a defining characteristic of the character he projects in the ring.

Sorry for the length, but I have been trying to watch a couple of guys who are generally beloved to understand why I don't get them, and "they bore me" has come up as a reason fairly often! I'm trying to unpack what I mean by that.

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Going back to the confused looks from wearing a wrestling shirt thing, I get looks and questions when I wear my Shayna Bazler "Submission Magician" shirt. I've gotten asked multiple times if I'm into dom/sub play from wearing that and I have to explain that it's just a cool wrestler.

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1 hour ago, Ramo2653 said:

Going back to the confused looks from wearing a wrestling shirt thing, I get looks and questions when I wear my Shayna Bazler "Submission Magician" shirt. I've gotten asked multiple times if I'm into dom/sub play from wearing that and I have to explain that it's just a cool wrestler.

Man, I could've avoided a lot of awkward moments/convos in my 20s if I'd just had a Shayna shirt

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1 hour ago, Ramo2653 said:

Going back to the confused looks from wearing a wrestling shirt thing, I get looks and questions when I wear my Shayna Bazler "Submission Magician" shirt. I've gotten asked multiple times if I'm into dom/sub play from wearing that and I have to explain that it's just a cool wrestler.

"Why yes, I am, thanks for asking, but this shirt doesn't actually have anything to do with it, though!"

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22 minutes ago, S.K.o.S. said:

There's at least one difficult spot in this one, but you have my permission to look up any unfamiliar Japanese names ?

11 minutes 2 seconds boyee, thank you for all the obscure Japanese names those are always how I get by~

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