SirSmUgly

I still enjoy some of it, definitely. There are things that they do well. I don't think that not liking some of the philosophies that the company seems to take on wrestling eliminates me from being a fan, and of course as a fan of some guys, I'm going to be vocal about how much I want them to succeed. I don't think that's an unreasonable way to act. Sure, I can definitely agree that Vince is where he is for a reason from a creative standpoint, but artists often age and run creatively amiss all the time. Look at some musicians or movie directors that just seem to lose it when they get out of touch. I think there's a possibility that this is happening to near-seventy-year-old Vince McMahon.

I'm going back through and watching the whole thing, and yeah, I think I just have a different philosophy than Vince on this stuff. He says that there needs to be a promo hook at the beginning to get you to care about the guys wrestling, or they're just wrestling for wrestling's sake. First of all, no you don't, and actually, long and tiresome talky openings can make me care less about a guy and get me fatigued on them to start the show. Second of all, people can get over just wrestling for wrestling's sake, but even so, the idea isn't that they're "wrestling for wrestling's sake," but that they want to win and move up in the ranks and get title shots. It's like that whole concept - guys wrestling because they want to impress the matchmakers in the back and become champ - isn't even in Vince's mind. I'll tell you what's really weird for me about this interview; it's the final realization that I'm not the wrestling fan that WWE focuses on. I'm not part of the target audience. For a guy that has watched WWF/E since I was four and grew up with it (and sometimes still feels kinda like that four-year-old little guy when getting into wrestling in the moment), that's something that I guess I kinda knew subconsciously. This interview has made me realize it pretty clearly, though. I also think Vince's Millennial talk is silly. Lots of start-ups and small businesses being created by Millennials, for example. They're no more or less daring or hard-working than any other generation.

Vince doesn't get that guys can be physically charismatic and genuinely get over on work. Guys did that in WCW or JCP quite often, but that's not exactly Vince's idea of pro wrestling. I care about what Cesaro is doing in the ring, but that just doesn't really matter to Vince. Silly over-acting like 2007-era HBK = genius physical in-ring emoting to Vince. Man, I appreciate Vince for being honest, but what he and I want to see in the ring are at cross-purposes, which explains why I spend most of my time on his network watching old stuff and not the current shows.

Oh man, I cannot wait to get home and see Vince dump on his roster on his own network. CANNOT WAIT.

Watts was in for a few weeks you know. Did he book the giant beatdowns like the one where Yoko, Mabel, Owen, and Bulldog beat the shit out of Diesel and HBK and Bulldog pinned Dieselor the one on RAW where like eight guys straight jacked Diesel and 'Taker? Those were awesome on a "Nexus rips up ringside and beats up Cena" level. I'm to the 11-20-95 episode right now, so I'm looking forward to seeing that again in the next couple of days.

I'm interested in NJPW World, but not until there's a Roku or PS4 app. I'm not into using the HDMI cable to watch on TV via my laptop; I usually like to use my laptop while watching TV, actually. I hope that happens soon because I would love to more closely follow NJPW.

The Vaudevillains are supposed to be heels, but they are WAY too charming for me. That short is definitely my favorite skit on WWE television all year. This might sound crazy, but I'm sensing a Bayley turn coming up.

I need to start consistently watching non-Lucha Underground lucha.

I am surprised at how much I enjoy late 1995 WWF. They're starting to find their stride a bit. Nash also was a damn hard worker and actually more fun to watch than I expected as I was coming into his title reign. Sure, there were some stinkers - KotR 1995 still sucks on re-watch - but a lot of this stuff is really fun.

What is the last heel that made you really mad at him or her just based on his or her kayfabe behavior? For me, watching 1997 Bret Hart reminds me of how much I genuinely hated the whiny little America-hating bastard at the time. I knew that he was going to beat 'Taker at Summerslam because of the stipulations, but I was still irate nonetheless. By God, I rooted for the Patriot against Bret Hart, an unthinkable offense which I apologize for here. Of course, now most of his work from that time just makes me laugh because I'm cynical and I enjoy wrestling in a different way now than I did then, but back then, I was desperate for someone, anyone, to beat him. The whole Montreal Screwjob thing has me feeling really ripped off because Austin beating Bret for the title would have blown the roof off. Anyway, who is the last heel that actually made you mad?

Yes, middle of the road, middle of the road. At this point, I can say I dislike Triple H more than anyone in the industry outside of Gabe Sapolsky. He's a self-serving racist who dumped his loyal she male for the boss' daughter. I also love the part where he calls out a dude for racism before dropping some transphobic bullshit on us all. I'm definitely anti-Vince more than anything here. Punk might be a jackass, but he was pretty badly mistreated by his employer, and the fact that he was able to get his rightfully-earned royalties and a bit more on top makes me happy. Good for him. I'm pretty pro-worker in these situations, though pro wrestling is weird, too. Normally, when it comes to sports or entertainment jobs, I always say that people came to see Damian Lillard play basketball, not to see Paul Allen chilling in his skybox or that people came to see Tom Cruise act, not Kaz Hirai greenlight scripts, and so the workers do deserve as much of the profits as they can get. In this case, however, people actually have come to see Vince McMahon perform at some point. He's still a pretty shitty owner toward his employees, however.

I wish Punk would punch me in the throat for calling him a skinny-fat, goofy-looking wrestler who cuts the type of promo a petulant sixteen-year-old would cut for not being given the keys to Mom's minivan for the night. Then I could lawyer up and get enough of a nice cash settlement, the amount of which that Punk would be forced to go back to Vince McMahon and ask for work, followed by six months of Punk jobbing to HHH, then Batista, then Ryback. I'd be in a new home and this board would have enough material to power not only it, but every other website on the internet for eternity. SorceressKnight: I confess to only being somewhat versed on unions, but I don't think that pushes would be a real focus of an conceivable wrestler's union. I also think that the union would have to be beyond WWE to work; a nationwide wrestler's union would probably do the trick. Probably. Punk's got BJJ training and Cody's only training is being really into the Triforce, so I'm gonna guess that Cody just figures he has a better chance of taking the tubby jokester friend of the BJJ guy.

Is anyone going to crack this "independent contractor" deal for WWE, though? I would love for the wrestlers to unionize, and were CM Punk not just sick of it all (and had he not been able to settle for his royalty checks + extra), I would guess that he's the type of guy who would go head to head with Vince McMahon in court over being categorized as an independent contractor. It's not at all a perfect analogy, but will there eventually be a Curt Flood of wrestling, do y'all think? Will there be one in our lifetimes? In Vince McMahon's lifetime?

If we're going by this thread, CM Punk. Almost. Actually, I think it is CM Punk fans going by this thread.

The shock of this thing is not that WWE is a terrible employer and wrestlers need to unionize, nor that Punk is a petulant dude with significant paranoia and a lot of bad ideas that he thinks are better than they are, but that Punk said a lot of this shit out loud. That MRSA story is absolutely scandalous, and this is a top-level dude talking about this happening to him.

I get why someone would call Dustin/Buck his or her favorite WCW match ever. Man, they brought the hate in that one. It was just a tiny step down from Tully/Magnum. I'd rate Rude/Steamboat Iron Man, Sting/Vader at Starrcade 1992, and 1994's War Games over it off the top of my head, but it's up there. It's definitely the best match of Slamboree 1994, though, and that's not small praise because there are quite a few matches on that show that I liked.

Go for it. I'm sure there are at least a few people that will read your recaps and appreciate that part of them.

I just started watching this because I don't have El Rey (or cable). I am seeing the eps online, though, starting with that first show. It's an interestingly-shot show. Those backstage skits are shot like soap opera scenes, and I'm not quite sure if I like that or not. Dario Cueto looks like the type of guy that sells roofies to frat boys. Striker as PBP is better than Striker on color, certainly. Vampiro sounds pilled up over on color. The commentary is inoffensive at the very least. They really sweeten the sounds of slaps and chops in post-production...,man. Each slap sounds like a firecracker going off to me. Maybe it's my audio. I feel like I could listen to Konnan talk forever. Him talking about the history of lucha and how good Prince Puma was is my favorite thing I've seen so far on the show. I don't know much (any) of Blue Demon Jr's work, but I really did not enjoy him vs. Chavo. It was pretty sloppy and the pacing was weird. I think I kinda like Sexy Star, but I'm not thrilled about her fighting dudes if that's where this is going to go. Puma/Mundo was okay. I think I just don't yet get or appreciate the house style, but so much of it seemed more like a performance - get to the next elaborate spot - instead of a fight. Oddly, it reminded me of Ambrose/Rollins Cell in that way, where it felt more like a series of spots meant to pop the crowd rather than a full match. Post-match was whatever with the devious owner, but I am fully in favor of Ezekiel Jackson on my television.

I'm way out on a limb by myself, but my favorite work from Jim Ross is actually his short-lived three-man booth with Bobby Heenan and Randy Savage. Heenan and Savage did the heel-face bickering dynamic nicely, leaving Ross to do a good call. I also prefer Ross/Ventura greatly to any of Ross's WWF work other than with Heenan and Savage.

I agree in most cases. I know people will ardently disagree, but I really enjoy some gimmicks or promos or angles or what-have-you with racial, gendered, or social portrayals that aren't one hundred percent positive. Other times, those gimmicks can be hard to watch. I take them one at a time.

People into gender politics will argue that this constitutes slut-shaming and sexist rhetoric, so those people sure would think so. I don't have a problem with it because it's wrestling and pro wrestling at its best reflects what people who watch it might really be thinking, but I also get why others would see Jericho as a heel as well as Stephanie for insulting her over her body and her sex life.

Well, now we're getting into a discussion of what audiences see as improper behavior. The problem is that when wrestling was in the '50s, '60s, up through the '80s, there was a pretty widely accepted cultural set of standards for how to act that defined the fanbases of each company. WWWF/WWF was about working class/patriotic heroes with a lot of cross-class clashes and angles based on nationalism, NWA was (paraphrased from how someone here put it) a perpetual re-telling of the Civil War with the faces taking the perspective of the South mixed with an emphasis on the Southern concepts of honor and chivalry, etc. Now, WWE has this very modern, very fragmented audience that feels culturally free to take a number of positions on what components make up ethical behavior with a dash of twenty-something nihilists and misanthropes that cheer for anybody who sneers at everything and everyone (which I think fully explains why CM Punk became such a big deal there for awhile). That's why you get so many different ideas here about who is the heel and who isn't in any given thread.

WWE faces often act like bullies and jerks, which is probably why posters tend to see the villains as maybe not faces, but as more understandable or relatable in some ways. AJ accusing people of getting where they are because they were models smacks of a really annoying type of prejudice that ignores that in kayfabe, Nikki Bella has been kicking ass and deserves respect for her wrestling abilities. On top of that, Nikki and Brie made up and are friends again. I can see why someone would find the Bellas more sympathetic than AJ.

I was like, "Who the fuck said that?" Then I went back and looked and was like, "Oh Ebbie, you crazy, cranky lady." At least Ebbie told her to make her own sandwich instead of telling her to make one for Punk. That's a form of advocating for empowerment in a way, uh, I guess? I checked out part of this RAW after the fact to see Bryan, which was cool. The talky talk for twenty minutes to start the show was not. I was watching a Nitro yesterday that started in media res; the Giant was trying to chop through Giant Haystacks's chest in the aisle. They need to vary their openings like Nitro did. Sometimes a match, sometimes an event in the back or the aisleway, and occasionally a promo. Then the laptop GM...not a good creative decision, to say the least.

Sting and Bayley vs. Flair and Charlotte. Sting turns on Bayley out of mercy in order to teach her a lesson that he wishes it hadn't taken him thirty years to learn.