NoFistsJustFlips

Apples to apples is probably an impossible task to figure out between Hogan & Cena ticket sales. Its not as simple as take Hogan's run adjust it for inflation and put it against Cena. Because in the 80s they had 3 touring rosters. Youd have to figure out only the Hogan shows for 10 years. Same with Cena and the brand split. Take the Cena brand ticket sales and throw the rest out. And we just dont have access to everything we need for a fair and honest conclussion. What we can measure is the amount of time on top and importance to WWE during that time. In Hogan's case he was *the guy* for about 8 years and during that 8 years there were multiple hiatuses for movies. Cena was on top for nearly 20 years with multiple hiatuses for movies & injuries. Even if you add in Hogan being on top of WCW that gets him to 14 years vs Cena's 20. Now Cena never broke through to the level of pop culture icon that Hogan did (or Austin or The Rock). But his movie career is also way more successful and he's just as much of a known name even if he's not hosting SNL or the first wrestler on Sports Illustrated. So in summation all we can do is take educated guesses hoping we've factored in everything relevant. In my opinion Cena (with the exception of maybe Bruno) is the legit GOAT in WWE history. Not as a performer, not as a draw nesicarily, but overall success as *the guy*. Austin, Hogan, Rock, Cena, Bruno. That's the *the guy* ace conversation. And depending the on metircs gauged or the phrasing of the question, all 5 may potentially be the right answer at any given time.

I gotta say, its very frustrating to pay $500 a year or whatever on Sunday Ticket and having no way to watch my team's game. Giants game was my local Fox game. And they decided to switch it to Saints vs Falcons. Can't watch it on Sunday Ticket because they black out your local games. Sure was only 5 mins of game time, but its just a janky system. Almost as janky as winning meaningless games dropping you from 1st to 6th in the draft.

I wont spend too much time on it because you showed self awareness and realized you kinda did do that this time (which I appreciate and respect you for admitting it when you saw it). But just to answer the question the reason why I said something is I notice this scenario happening a lot. There's a stray negative comment about WWE that is pretty innocuous but relevant to the subject and you tend to interpret that as people being mean spirited and talking about WWE when they arent relevant to the subject. We were talking about Cena being a GOAT or not and Matt brought up not being the best to discuss it because he didnt see any of the retirement stuff because of WWE production. Totally fair thing to say in regards to the subject. We all have things that grind our gears. The Bruce Prichard thing was just a joke because of the Houston thing and the constant relentless pro WWE spin. But again respect how you responded to all this. So its all good.

I don't understand the motive of critiquing a person's viewing preferences, but only when it's anti-WWE. Not gonna lie, the Houston TX location and the constant WWE defending... for a very long time I thought you were Bruce Prichard. Will probably give you a chuckle hearing that, but my point is *that* is how much of a stan for WWE you come off as. Is someone offering critiques and unflattering WWE takes? Here comes Eivion to defend his corporate overlords lol. I's not saying that as a way to take a shot at your or anything. Sometimes when I'm not self aware about something and I get told about it, makes me a little more thoughtful in how I decide to respond. But you're obviously free to like what you like. My hope is that maybe you dial it down a notch or two? Make it seem less like you're on the clock defending your employer and more like a multifaced human who has opinions that ebb & flow.

Excellent points. I think, and this is just me guessing based off what we've seen, she's most comfortable being a goofy borderline comedy character with the original I am an alien gimmick. And she was probably told they dont want that. So she tried the heel turn and it never really clicked. And now shes done the face turn but without the comedy and that's also not clicking. She's clearly not super comfortable in the presentation she has. But I think AEW doesnt want that goofy alien aspect as a character trait. Its one thing for Toni to do this old timey thing. But a literal alien played for laughs just isnt what TK wants on top of the division. I lived here original I am an alien gimmick with the nose boops and intentional awkwardness in promos. Thought it was unique & fun but more importantly more authentic to her true personality.

Man Stat had so much steam before the heel turn. I wish they never did that. Shes great but I think the crowd still hasn't full re-embraced her. Hayter by all accounts changed her look deliberately and says this is closer to who she is. But the Scooby Doo gimmick has tanked her aura. Think its just a case of two great performers being matched up at not a great time. This match with the a pre heel turn Stat vs a pre 70s gal gimmick for Hayter would have set the world on fire.

I know The Giants are going to win today. Ive already accepted that. Doesnt mean I wont be mad when it happens.

If you look at where we were in July and where we are now, how can anyone claim AEW was well booked this year? Mega heel group help top heel keep winning non stop, multiple attempted murders, holding the belt hostage in a bag. We build up the ace of the company to finally dethrone him. This causes the heel to go on a run of being a big pussy and tapping right away. Which somehow leads to him becoming a world beating ultra face that does the corniest rah rah AEW speech after winning the CC. Meanwhile that ace you built up drop the belt quicker than he won it and is now stuck trying to make Hook happen. How can anyone say that was a successful use of Danielson's retirement? Or Mox's long heel run stranglehold on the belt? It made no one. And worse it makes no sense in hindsight. For someone who didn't really dig The BCC and straight up hates The Deathriders, this is not a fun promotion for me to watch anymore. Everyone that has been involved with The Deathriders (except Marina Shafir) has come out in a worse spot than they were when going into it. Everyone has their own tastes and all that. But for my tastes, this is the final straw.

I think it's time for me to take a break from AEW. Have purchased every PPV they've ever ran (full price, no VPNs), but the Mox over push shit is just too much for me. Having him win the CC when the other 3 finalists all made more sense and would have been more satisfying is it for me. Cherry on top being them creating and abandoning the Unified Title deal in less than six months with zero purpose and another title being added back into the mix. Generally the work is amazing in AEW. But TK has his favs just like McMahon did. 18 time world Champion Jon Moxley is going to be a thing. I'd put money on it. I just won't be around to see it. Beyond saying that, I'll keep to myself. Just had to get that out but don't want to go any harder and yuck on people's yum.

Odd thing to say. Why is it the side that wanted better for his run the narcissism side? Not the side gloating about it being right, just because they're happy it went the way they wanted it to? Neither side its wrong. Its all opinions. But projecting that anyone who disagrees with your opinions is a narcissist is a wild way to live your life. Had that been the way the run went leading up to the Gunther match, then the Gunther match plays out exactly the same, I think the opinion of it is way different. The problem is he was 50/50 booked since summer. You want it to mean something him losing to Gunther? Dont have him lose to Lesnar & Dom. Dont put him on a losing streak leading into such an emphatic loss. Without speaking for others, for me I would have been fine with it ending how it did it the lead up was better. But with the lead up they gave us it made way more sense to send the live audience home in celebration. In my opinion.

I know this is how Im thought of but I do want to say I want WWE to be something I enjoy. Thats where my posts are so passionate / aggressive. Its frustration. I want it to be good. I want to like it.

You're right. I went back and edited that part out.

https://x.com/RealJeffJarrett/status/2000073989474165154?s=20 Not sure why it wont embed, but ol Double J has a very similar take. Quick everyone go tell him how he doesn't understand the wrestling business lol.

What novel goes well instead of telling you a story, with emotional highs and lows and a narrative through line, we're just gonna throw 16 dudes out there and one of them will be the antagonist once we get to the last page and he has no relationship with the protagonist and you will be satisfied by the protagonist giving up and losing? I understand the point you're trying to make. I really do. But too many people are letting the lazy lead up to this go. You want John Cena to finally have to say thats it guys my body is finally broken down and I must give up? Im fine with that! Just do the leg work of telling that story. Not just oh hey this is the first time Ive wrestled this guy, guess his sloppy ass looking sleeper is just super deadly and enough for my body to give out but Im gonna smile while I do it. Im getting so much push back in here for a completely rational thought. Do. The. Work. Tell the story. I dont even want to go back in time and list examples of times WWE did this because everyone's just gonna shit on it and call me a hater anyways. Wrestling is story telling. Im being told I just didnt understand the novel. This shit wasnt a novel. This was a Highlights magazine in a dentist office with all the crosswords and shit filled out already and Im being told Im being irrational for not saying it should be a New York Time's best seller.

It's more so the mind set of higher ups in WWE that is my issue. Cena's retirement is a symptom of that but not the root issue. Correct none of the workers except Angle complained about how they went out. Some specifically requested it the way it went down (like Batista). What I'm saying is the pattern of going out on your back is tired. Seeing the same thing over and over is tedious. This was the one that made the most sense for the guy to win on the way out. I'm just tired of all the downer finishes, but more so than the finishes being downers it's the smug too fucking bad reaction from the higher ups (Triple H mocking my friend Mark, the smug laugh when he embraced Cena, etc). I have no doubt Cena requested it exactly as it went down. What I'm looking for is WWE to step and say listen John it's not the 70s anymore. The territory doesn't need you to "make" anyone on the way out, we can do that fo ourselves just fine. Let's "make" the fan's year by giving them an unexpected happy moment to celebrate you as you exit (ala Sting, the best retirement run in wrestling history in my opinion). Again it's not Cena losing his last match (or even tapping) that has me riled up. What has me riled up is the lack of story, the lack of character development, the lack of respect for your fans, it's the totality of what they presented on the platter. I'm tired of shit sandwiches. Would have been nice to get a steak. If you want Cena to lose, if you want his last moment to be finally tapping, then put the narrative work in to make it satisfying. But why put effort into any of this right record profits blah blah blah.

All of this is true. But let me show you a pattern to demonstrate my point of going out on your back not really helping the person who beats you by giving them a rub. -Flair retired by Michaels (didn't need it). -Michaels retired by The Undertaker (didn't need it) -Angle retired by Corbin (a case where it could have helped, but it didnt) -Batista retired by Triple H (didn't need it) -Goldberg retired by Gunther (didn't need it) -Cena retired by Gunther (didn't need it) -The Streak ended by Brock (didn't need it) Do you see why I don't think it's such a bad idea for some of these guys to get to win in their last match and give the crowd a feel good moment? Just follow me here. If Cena wins last night and the roster pours out and you play the video exactly the same, the audience is going ape shit with cheers and chants sending the man off in a moment viewers would remember forever. Does any of that *hurt* Gunther? In my opinion it doesn't. Does that reward your audience? Absolutely. When the last reaction of the night is chanting you fucked up at the booker, and not going ape shit with cheers for Cena, you've messed up. They're not going to all of a sudden go bankrupt because of this decision or anything. But it's a consistent pattern that they prefer to troll their audience in important moments instead of reward them and give them feel good endings for these icons. WWE in a nutshell. "We broke another gate record! Profits on profits on profits! Shut up marks you're gonna keep watching, eat a dick!" Just tiresome as fuck to me.

You mean the dude with the longest IC Title reign of all time, two World Title runs, the longest UK Champion, and the guy that already retired Goldberg still needed "made"? I don't know about all that lol. That's the thing. What's done is done. You should be putting one of the titles on him again and having an underdog face chase him for being such a prick. But from everything reported he's not in either title picture moving forward. Did this shine him up for Lesnar at Mania? Even still that match would have been over even without beating Cena. Also I'm not opposed to Cena losing his last match. I just don't like the presentation of how they did it. I also don't like that this wasn't the culmination of a long story. It was just a match. I do think Cena should have won in the scenario they presented us. But that doesn't mean I'm against all scenarios of Cena going out with a loss.

It wasn't always this way, but the reality of our times is that WWE is not a company trying to put on good art. They are a cooperation trying to pull as much profit as possible. And I get it. If an Avengers movie makes 2 billion dollars but everyone universally hates it and says creatively it was bad, but they keep showing up to the sequels and breaking the 2 billion dollar record every year why would Disney change anything? Who cares if people agree they suck creatively, we still made the most money ever. So WWE are gonna keep WWE-ing because the fans keep opening the wallet even when complaining about the product. Current day WWE just isnt for me. They arent wrestling anymore. They're Saturday Night Live with a ring. Over-scripted to the point every breath you take is mapped out and assigned to a camera. Glossy slick trash.

Cena himself has been positioning his retirement as "in three weeks no one will give a fuck that I'm gone". I dont agree with that but I will use that sentiment towards Gunther tapping him. If Sting's run was totally different and a makeup, can we get a makeup run for Cena then? His last year was awful. The difference is AEW treated Sting with reverence. He was an icon that they kept strong and allowed him to shine. WWE was like oooo we have a hook to sell a lot of tickets. Thats it. They didnt treat Cena with reverence. They treated him like just a dude on the roster they wanted to wring every ounce of profit out his name they could. Flair. HBK. Angle. Batista. Goldberg. Cena. Everyone loses. Its always a downer. Why cant they ever just once give the fans that happy ending they want at the end of a run? Undertaker won his last much but no one was sure that cinematic match would actually be the end, otherwise he would have lost too. Im not saying put everyone iver at the end. Just once and awhile when appropriate. Now saying that Im sure a shithead like Lesnar will randomly be the dude that gets to leave on a win. Even if Cena demanded to tap you over ride him and tell him it makes no sense for his character and it does more harm than good.

This is an all time bad take. There's a larger argument here beyond just Cena losing his last match or Cena tapping out. It's an argument that WWE never give their audience a win. There's a reason a large number of people say Sting had one of the best retirement runs of all time. Sometimes you need the guy on the way out to win to give any meaning to the loses on the way out. WWE just non stop does losses on the way out. Every single big retirement ends the same way, and this one should have been the one they decided to let the fans win. The ridiculous ticket prices to get in. The fact Cena was booked to take as many losses as he did in the lead up to this match. Gunther not needing this. The crowd not wanting this. Do we all remember when Triple H did hsi my friend Mark promo when Punk left. They had 4.5 million viewers then. People decided to leave after constantly getting trolled and made fun of by the people in charge. In a world where this is arguably your biggest attraction of all time who was thrown in a match with no story just a tournament... and he taps out to a dude that's already a made man. Gunter gains nothing from this. This doesnt build him to a title run. This doesnt get him over the hump. He's had two world title runs already and retire Goldberg as well. When the end of your John Cena tribute show has the audience chanting Bullshit, You Fucked Up, and AEW (on the post show), well... you fucked up. How does any of that reaction move anything forward or have anyone remember this night fondly? WWE the company and especially the higher ups making the decisions dont care about fans, they care about dollars. Profits are record high. But so is apathy towards your product. Cena should have won and got a giant celebration with the audience and the roster. His words putting over Gunther as great afterwards would have done as much for Gunther as any of the actual facts of the situation. It's the streak all over again. Brock didn't need it. Gunther didn't need this. WWE just always fills the heat balloon nonstop and lets it pop. rarely does a babyface ever get to pop it. And that's why this was such a tone deaf decision. But why should I focus on that? I should be marking out for the arena gate record they broke last night like Nick Khan & Triple H right?

Just putting it out in the universe... tonight at the game awards we findout what FF7R3's title is...

Quoting this shit post so everyone knows it's a shit post. Thanks for your thoughts. Very constructive. I'm sure we're all better people for having read it.

Yeah thought that was pretty telegraphed, but should still be good. Okada wins his block. Take wins his block. Take wins the tournament / Unified Title. Or just the Continental Title? Who the fuck knows with the scattershot way AEW books their titles. Take walking out for the main of Wrestle Kingdom (semi main because of Tanahashi?) with 4 belts would be a hell of a visual. Take winning both the G1 & the C2 in the same year, and beating Okada in the finals of the C2 would really cement him as a top act too.

Not sure if it's because I went in with such low expectations, but this show WAY over delivered. One of the best PPVs of the year I thought. Crowd unfortunately got a little tired and didn't give the last few matches 100%. But still a very good show. I did not expect Joe to win. That was a left field win for me. I assume Hook slides in as the Trios Champ now. I do not like The National Title. In concept. In execution. In design. None of it. I also thought that was the worst Casino Gauntlet they've done. A real low point for the show. I do like Ricochet getting rewarded for all of his hard work and character progression tho. But why in the world would the title design just be a straight rip off like that? Essentially makes the belt feel like a replica title for me. A very unserious move for a national wrestling company. I loved the Tag Title & TNT Title Matches. The cage match over delivered for me. Thought Mercedes & Stat had a great match. Million Dollar Trios was fun as hell. Them doing the overlapping match gimmick AGAIN was a little much. But I did like the nuance of Okada not even considering showing up for a pre show and only coming out once on PPV. Although no commentator mentioned that plot point unfortunately.

You cant blame the person doing a shitty thing for that shitty thing because of reason XYZ is a REALLY BAD take. It is 100% their fault for stealing if that's the case. No one held a gun to Gunther or the merch marketing team's heads. Could be an innocent mistake. There's a lot of unintentional overlap in ideas in wrestling. So that's certainly possible. But you advocating for someone to do a shitty thing just because someone didnt pay X amount of dollars to trademark something that shouldn't have to be trademarked is not a stance Id imagine many people agree with.