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The AEW Brawl & Its Fallout


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13 minutes ago, (BP) said:

I’m glad I listened to that new F4 clip. Dave rambles and he said one thing in particular that confounded me, but he made some good points. He talked about how practiced Punk sounded at the scrum, and it made me feel sorry for the people Punk’s friends with because he probably cuts long promos on them that’s really rumination over minor slights.  Sounds exhausting.

Dave’s point about talent being wary of certain criticisms because of how far they’ve come dismissing them was apt too. It honestly makes all the sense in the world that Jericho is the vet who gets it because he may not be the GOAT but he’s professional wrestling’s true iconoclast.

I was thinking about the "dismissing criticism" thing. I go back and forth on it. On the one hand, why not take advantage of the minds of people who've been successful in the past when you have them right there? On the other, to really blaze your own trail, sometimes you have to ignore what came before and do your own thing. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. I don't think it's a great idea to outright dismiss the vets giving you advice, but sometimes you need to say, "Thanks, but I want to do this my way." Will that always work out? No. But if everyone just did what the guys before them did, nothing would ever evolve.

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3 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I really want to know how we decide what to carry over from generation to generation. This is one of those stories that I feel wouldn't have happened in previous generations. Mickey Mantle hated Joe DiMaggio's guts, but they kept it between themselves. I feel like this is one of those things that we should have kept going. I feel like my grandfather would have disowned me if I got in front of a microphone and did something like that. My grandfather is on the all time short list for dudes who are ready to fight,  but there is no way on earth he's respect this type of passive aggressive bullshit.  My grandfather once threatened the pastor's life in the church for not appreciating the tone he took with my grandmother. I'm pretty sure no one outside of the immediate family ever heard that story. If you have a problem with someone,  address the problem with that person. Otherwise,  let it go. 

That's kind of my opinion on this whole situation. I don't fault Punk for feeling the way he did/does and I don't fault the Bucks and Omega for being pissed. I do fault them all in how they handled it.

I actually had to deal with this sort of thing with my daughter all through elementary school. Something would happen to her or a friend that maybe wasn't fair, and she'd lose her shit over it. She wasn't necessarily wrong in how she felt, but she handled it very poorly. Of course, she's 11 now and has learned to control herself. These are grown men we're talking about here.

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1 minute ago, Log said:

I was thinking about the "dismissing criticism" thing. I go back and forth on it. On the one hand, why not take advantage of the minds of people who've been successful in the past when you have them right there? On the other, to really blaze your own trail, sometimes you have to ignore what came before and do your own thing. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. I don't think it's a great idea to outright dismiss the vets giving you advice, but sometimes you need to say, "Thanks, but I want to do this my way." Will that always work out? No. But if everyone just did what the guys before them did, nothing would ever evolve.

I seriously doubt there are many people in that locker room who wouldn’t at least be receptive to taking notes from Punk, but not using all of his advice broke his brain. And I’m sure he also took that as the Elite undermining him to the roster behind his back. 

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6 minutes ago, Log said:

That's kind of my opinion on this whole situation. I don't fault Punk for feeling the way he did/does and I don't fault the Bucks and Omega for being pissed. I do fault them all in how they handled it.

I actually had to deal with this sort of thing with my daughter all through elementary school. Something would happen to her or a friend that maybe wasn't fair, and she'd lose her shit over it. She wasn't necessarily wrong in how she felt, but she handled it very poorly. Of course, she's 11 now and has learned to control herself. These are grown men we're talking about here.

Exactly. We all have emotions. We all deal with people we don't like. We all are subject to things we believe are unfair. There are times where you need to take a stand and let people know you are done fucking with them. The fact that Punk is 43 years old and has no idea how to handle this type of thing is unacceptable. 

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11 minutes ago, (BP) said:

I seriously doubt there are many people in that locker room who wouldn’t at least be receptive to taking notes from Punk, but not using all of his advice broke his brain. And I’m sure he also took that as the Elite undermining him to the roster behind his back. 

And I really do get why maybe the Bucks or Omega wouldn't feel the need to listen to him. Like their style or not, they've all been very successful in pro wrestling doing what they're doing. And they've been able to do it all on their own terms. I think a lot of their appeal to the majority of their fans (and this probably goes for a lot of the AEW roster) is that they don't do things in an old-school way.

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26 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I really want to know how we decide what to carry over from generation to generation. This is one of those stories that I feel wouldn't have happened in previous generations. Mickey Mantle hated Joe DiMaggio's guts, but they kept it between themselves. I feel like this is one of those things that we should have kept going. I feel like my grandfather would have disowned me if I got in front of a microphone and did something like that. My grandfather is on the all time short list for dudes who are ready to fight,  but there is no way on earth he's respect this type of passive aggressive bullshit.  My grandfather once threatened the pastor's life in the church for not appreciating the tone he took with my grandmother. I'm pretty sure no one outside of the immediate family ever heard that story. If you have a problem with someone,  address the problem with that person. Otherwise,  let it go. 

Well until now...

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Mantle had good reason too, as that preening ass caused his knee to be wrecked. . . . Jim Cornette had an interesting take, in that wouldn't Elite being EVP open up the company to a potential lawsuit regarding their actions? Sure Punk was an ass, but if they don't go to confront him, no fight. Fire his ass the next day, if you want/need to, but going into the locker room was asking for trouble.  Everybody involved was fucking stupid and unprofessional, but as "EVPs" shouldnt they be held to a high standard? Not a defense of Punk at all. . .btw.

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1 hour ago, Log said:

I was thinking about the "dismissing criticism" thing. I go back and forth on it. On the one hand, why not take advantage of the minds of people who've been successful in the past when you have them right there? On the other, to really blaze your own trail, sometimes you have to ignore what came before and do your own thing. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. I don't think it's a great idea to outright dismiss the vets giving you advice, but sometimes you need to say, "Thanks, but I want to do this my way." Will that always work out? No. But if everyone just did what the guys before them did, nothing would ever evolve.

I mean Tony Atlas annoyed CM Punk and gave him crap about how he wrapped his hands. And then he cut a promo on him to the people in the back during a meeting in OVW. We've come full circle here.

Say what you will about Jericho, but it seems the difference between Punk and Jericho is that Punk walks around and calls himself a locker room leader. While it seems Jericho IS a locker room leader and has most everyone's respect. Once again, leaders lead. They don't call themselves leaders. 

Edited by TheVileOne
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In general - it is easy to blame things on Social Media and the Internet over why things are more public but basically when you have two sides with huge (and arguably fragile) egos - they find ways to make things public. The only difference is it might take a little while longer to find out.

For Example - Secret Base does a ton of videos called "Beef History" - here is one where Pele and Diego Maradona were taking shots at each other via the media and their own books since the early 80s

(The Wilt Chamberlain/Kareem Abdul Jabbar one is basically the same thing too)

So it's not like this just because we are in a post 9/11 world

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I liked Meltzer's point in finding medium in listening to older generations in that some of the stuff they say will be outdated and not applicable, but some will be valuable and should be taken on. It's why the Regal line about not interacting with Page was interesting. If you can't find even something small to take away from Regal, you aren't the bright mind you think yourself to be. 

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Tony encouraged cliques and pocket universes because he didn’t know how to control the roster, so I’d assume Regal is tight with someone who has tension with the Elite and they don’t cross paths. That’s conjecture of course, some people just can’t be told a thing and maybe Hanger is like that. 

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I think the reason Punk pointed out that Colt Cabana shares a bank account with his mother thing was to insinuate that Cabana was a loser who still sponges or leeches off of his parents type of person. Instead, it just kind of made Punk look like more of an asshole for saying that.

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48 minutes ago, Log said:

I was thinking about the "dismissing criticism" thing. I go back and forth on it. On the one hand, why not take advantage of the minds of people who've been successful in the past when you have them right there? On the other, to really blaze your own trail, sometimes you have to ignore what came before and do your own thing. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. I don't think it's a great idea to outright dismiss the vets giving you advice, but sometimes you need to say, "Thanks, but I want to do this my way." Will that always work out? No. But if everyone just did what the guys before them did, nothing would ever evolve.

How many of AEWs young, intriguing talents have plateaued? There's a conversation to be had about why that is, but at least some of it is going to fall on the performer. Let's look at Hangman. He's a fantastic in-ring performer and his matches almost always over deliver. He was given the title and victories over Omega and Danielson. This was the opportunity of opportunities. Nobody gets this. On paper, he should be made, but he's not. Something is still missing. 

Vets like Punk, Bryan, Jericho, Christian, and Henry are all guys who years into their careers put the pieces together and everything clicked. You can be dismissive of these types, but they all figured out how to reach the next level and you haven't yet.  

 

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1 minute ago, JohnnyJ said:

How many of AEWs young, intriguing talents have plateaued? There's a conversation to be had about why that is, but at least some of it is going to fall on the performer. Let's look at Hangman. He's a fantastic in-ring performer and his matches almost always over deliver. He was given the title and victories over Omega and Danielson. This was the opportunity of opportunities. Nobody gets this. On paper, he should be made, but he's not. Something is still missing. 

Vets like Punk, Bryan, Jericho, Christian, and Henry are all guys who years into their careers put the pieces together and everything clicked. You can be dismissive of these types, but they all figured out how to reach the next level and you haven't yet.  

 

Christian plateaued plenty of times in WWE and never reached his full potential.

Look at how long it took for Henry to finally reach a main event level and many starts and stops. He debuted for WWE in 1996.

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2 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

How many of AEWs young, intriguing talents have plateaued? There's a conversation to be had about why that is, but at least some of it is going to fall on the performer. Let's look at Hangman. He's a fantastic in-ring performer and his matches almost always over deliver. He was given the title and victories over Omega and Danielson. This was the opportunity of opportunities. Nobody gets this. On paper, he should be made, but he's not. Something is still missing. 

Vets like Punk, Bryan, Jericho, Christian, and Henry are all guys who years into their careers put the pieces together and everything clicked. You can be dismissive of these types, but they all figured out how to reach the next level and you haven't yet.  

 

No, I agree with you on all of that. That's why I think it's a balancing act. You have to forge your own identity, but there's always a point where you need a little extra something, and I'm sure there are plenty of vets backstage at AEW that could help in finding that something.

I 100% agree that Hangman has plateaued, if not even done some backsliding. Now, I have no exposure to him pre-AEW, so I can't compare that. He was a guy who I didn't understand why they were pushing him. Then, I came around on him, but he's never hit that next gear, IMO.

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25 minutes ago, Kuetsar said:

Mantle had good reason too, as that preening ass caused his knee to be wrecked. . . . Jim Cornette had an interesting take, in that wouldn't Elite being EVP open up the company to a potential lawsuit regarding their actions? Sure Punk was an ass, but if they don't go to confront him, no fight. Fire his ass the next day, if you want/need to, but going into the locker room was asking for trouble.  Everybody involved was fucking stupid and unprofessional, but as "EVPs" shouldnt they be held to a high standard? Not a defense of Punk at all. . .btw.

Mantle ran way out of his way to try to catch a fly ball that DiMaggio was already under. Mantle blamed him for the rest of his life. 

Punk challenged those dudes to come see him if they had a problem. They took him up on his request. They didn't have to confront him,  but he extended the invite. 

11 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

I think the reason Punk pointed out that Colt Cabana shares a bank account with his mother thing was to insinuate that Cabana was a loser who still sponges or leeches off of his parents type of person. Instead, it just kind of made Punk look like more of an asshole for saying that.

I have to say,  if you're in the road ass much as a pro wrestler, having someone you can trust to be able to handle business for you is a really good idea. My mom has non withdrawing power on my back account, because it's a bank account I've had since I was a minor. It has only paid off a couple times,  but let me tell you it was a fucking life saver. 

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3 minutes ago, Log said:

God, I hope my boss doesn't ask me why I've been less productive this week at work.

"Well, you see, there was a pro wrestling show on Sunday and afterwards, they held a press conference..."

Watch your boss surprise you by responding, "Ooh, the CM Punk thing? Did you hear that, uh, I think one of the Young Bucks bit Punk's dog, I can't really remember. Someone reported it."

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57 minutes ago, Log said:

And I really do get why maybe the Bucks or Omega wouldn't feel the need to listen to him. Like their style or not, they've all been very successful in pro wrestling doing what they're doing. And they've been able to do it all on their own terms. I think a lot of their appeal to the majority of their fans (and this probably goes for a lot of the AEW roster) is that they don't do things in an old-school way.

Expanding on that point, what people define as success can often be very different things, which I think is at the crux of the issue here. While it is without a doubt The Elite have had success doing their own thing, it is also without a doubt that on every objective measure (which match rating/qualities are not one of), Punk has been way more successful than them in the wrestling business.

That being said, even objective success doesn’t necessarily qualify one to be in a source of wisdom. For example, nobody has written a TV wrestling show in the modern era that has drawn higher ratings than Vince Russo, and I don’t think anybody is clamouring for him to be in a position of power again. But then again, anybody with the slightest appreciation of wrestling history shouldn’t find it controversial when someone calls out someone else for thinking they are above getting advice on pro wrestling from the likes of Terry Funk.

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Plenty of adults have co-accounts with a parent. You can have it for any number of reasons. Maybe you have it in case of an emergency. Or like above someone is on the road a lot. Or a person and a parent just give each other money a lot because of shared purchases. 

But the bottom line is: Who fucking cares? Punk brought that up to hurt someone who wasn't there to defend themselves. He did it just to be a complete and total asshole. He wanted to make Colt look like a sponge who doesn't deserve the respect of a locker room that's pissed at him for dicking over a guy they all like a lot. 

Punk also dropping the line about Colt supposedly wanting to settle the lawsuit after the joint bank account was discovered -- and, also, no proof of that beyond what Punk's firing off at a press conference -- was meant to try and shame Colt and it included a dismissive tone about his mom. But if that's true at all, somebody could also just say "That's really fucking low to get my mom involved with this, let's end it now." 

That's just the work of a total petty bully. It's someone who was gifted a level of power because of past success and public forum digging a hatchet into a guy who has nothing to do with any of this. 

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Wrestling is and always has been an industry that attracts people who are a little off or outliers in some way in terms of personality. In WWE you had all these characters working for the same company but there was always oversight from management and veterans to try and keep shit from going too far or people getting carried away in whatever personal bullshit they had going on. Tony Khan has pretty much said he wants much more of a laissez faire locker room and encourages wrestlers to be themselves even at the expense of not always acting completely professional.

Kenny and the Bucks have a history of being able to do whatever they want and have been very successful by behaving on their own terms. From cute shooty bullshit on social media to their own vlog endorsed by AEW they're used to being the big fish and being able to do business however they want. This is conjecture, but thinking that since they've always been successful doing stuff however they choose they don't need any more corporate/old school insight or advice. Whether or not their way of doing things has rubbed others in the locker room the wrong way is beyond my ability to speculate, though I do wonder if their "EVP" status has kept more junior members of the roster room from doing so.

Meanwhile you've got Punk who has a long history of being a self-serving asshole whose behavior gets some latitude due to his popularity and name value. I think a lot of people figured his more toxic traits - the paranoia, thin-skinned attitude, etc might have ebbed in his time away from the business and maturity. Unfortunately it looks like that being in a room with a lot of other eccentric personalities who have all been encouraged to do things their own way have just caused his unhealthy personality aspects to come back out full force.

Throw in a bunch of contrary personalities, people who have a propensity for saying vague, smug nonsense online and in promos, different ideas about professionalism, and upper management who doesn't enforce any type of locker room discipline and something like this was bound to happen.

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3 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

Plenty of adults have co-accounts with a parent. You can have it for any number of reasons. Maybe you have it in case of an emergency. Or like above someone is on the road a lot. Or a person and a parent just give each other money a lot because of shared purchases. 

But the bottom line is: Who fucking cares? Punk brought that up to hurt someone who wasn't there to defend themselves. He did it just to be a complete and total asshole. He wanted to make Colt look like a sponge who doesn't deserve the respect of a locker room that's pissed at him for dicking over a guy they all like a lot. 

Punk also dropping the line about Colt supposedly wanting to settle the lawsuit after the joint bank account was discovered -- and, also, no proof of that beyond what Punk's firing off at a press conference -- was meant to try and shame Colt and it included a dismissive tone about his mom. But if that's true at all, somebody could also just say "That's really fucking low to get my mom involved with this, let's end it now." 

That's just the work of a total petty bully. It's someone who was gifted a level of power because of past success and public forum digging a hatchet into a guy who has nothing to do with any of this. 

Funnily enough, having been previously employed specifically to assess applications for legal aid for 5+ years, Punks anger over the discovery of the joint bank account makes a lot of sense, especially when you acknowledge he was funding Cabana’s legal fees. I can’t think of a situation where it would be seen as appropriate to expect a friend to cover legal fees ahead of a family member, even moreso if the family member is providing financial support to them. If Punk was a Legal Aid commission, Cabana and his mother would likely need to provide a statutory declaration showing the reason why  they required a joint bank account as well as submissions as to why their combined finances shouldn’t be considered when determining if Cabana was eligible for assistance.

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33 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Christian plateaued plenty of times in WWE and never reached his full potential.

Look at how long it took for Henry to finally reach a main event level and many starts and stops. He debuted for WWE in 1996.

I must have stopped watching before Henry hit main event level, I've always assumed he was just a DVDVR fave.

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