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Dynamite - 8/17/2022


The Natural

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Bryan Danielson is having an all time run in AEW:

  • Bryan Danielson vs. Kenny Omega. AEW Dynamite, 22nd September 2021. *****. My 2021 MOTY.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Minoru Suzuki. AEW The Buy In: Rampage, 15th October 2021. *****.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Eddie Kingston. AEW Rampage, 29th October 2021.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Adam Page. AEW Winter is Coming Dynamite, 15th December 2021. *****.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Adam Page. AEW Dynamite, 6th January 2022. *****. Probably still my 2022 MOTY.
  • Jon Moxley vs. Bryan Danielson. AEW Revolution 2022.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Wheeler Yuta. AEW Dynamite, 30th March 2022.
  • Anarchy in the Arena. AEW Double or Nothing 2022.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Daniel Garcia. AEW Dynamite, 17th August 2022.
Edited by The Natural
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Something about this whole discussion has been troubling me...giving me real "I can't tell if I'm the dumb guy or the smart guy" vibes. Or it's more AEW geographical pedantry, who knows.

But anyway: am I missing something where Virginia and West Virginia suddenly became the same state? AEW absolutely was not in Hangman's hometown or "backyard," regardless of what Punk said about Hangman being from around those parts. Where Hangman is supposedly from in VA is in the southern part of Virginia, not too far from the border with NC. I have a lot of family from that area. It is a four and a half hour drive (thanks, Google) between there and Charles Town, WV. Maybe it's just my personal experience, but my family has never once talked about West Virginia being close to us. Now...sure, there were probably some Hangman fans from Virginia who made the drive, but it's not as though they were able to walk home from the arena. Chicago is roughly the same distance away from Green Bay, WI, but you won't find many in Illinois who are Packers fans based on that proximity. Maybe I should just go to bed.

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2 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

I couldn't imagine if every little work squabble I ever had got blown up by some clickbait-driven sub-industry. If every time I shouted at a co-worker a million people started chattering about it. Movie stars don't even have to deal with this shit, musicians hear the stories told well after the tour is done. Fucking hell, every potential pro wrestling beef has to be reported on and magnified by the highest possible factor just for the modern dirtsheet to stay in business.

And this is what my wrestling fan friends want to talk about. They don't want to watch good old matches, take in the finer points of the artform, no. They want to gossip about Dude A's worked shoot on Guy B and how much of it was LEGIT BROTHER. I know this shit permeates the "higher artforms" but it's like every fucking episode of Dynamite is the Gallagher brothers or Herzog and Kinski or more honestly some low-rent reality star TMZ scoop and we'd rather talk about the gossip than the product. This is the post-kayfabe, post-Montreal cancer that ruins wrestling, fuck a Canadian Destroyer. And this stuff and the people who earn a living off of it... I can't imagine how much the Gossip As Industry bullshit drags the entire locker room vibe down. I hope these parties talk it out and I hope I am never privy to the conversation.

I guess if your work squabble was brought up on tv it would be talked about. Like when Nicki Ninaj called out Miley Cyrus at the VMA’s. Or the East Coast - West Coast beef. Or when Richard Sherman taunted Crabtree when he blocked that pass. In all entertainment and sports, when tense interpersonal conflict is made public in a showy matter, it is generally talked about. This isn’t wrestling specific but our culture as a whole. Go to Reddit when any hip hop diss-track drops. People go into the intricacies of the people involved. Megan thee Stallion’s song dissing Tory Lanez after he tried to (allegedly) shoot her. Those threads went deeeeep. Eminem vs Machine Gun Kelly was the same way. Podcasts too like when Joe Budden’s side guys left. Politics has been the same way the past few years with public discourse being more mockingly confrontational. To escape this is pretty much to leave all forms of social media and opinion/ talking points based television in both news, entertainment, and even comedy. Which some of that might actually be a healthier way to live if we riddled ourselves of most of that…

—-

@Gordlow, I do feel this thread had some very good posts especially on Dragon-Slayer vs Dragon-Slayer-Slayer.

I think this is an interesting time in the company. In a lot of ways, good and bad, we are living through history. It’s been so long since we’ve had a viable number 2 promotion. Seeing on television the type of wrestling in a Vince era WWE we’d never see. I’m thinking about your Sports Entertainment thoughts on that Heat match I posted. The wrestling and position on AEW in the world of wrestling will and has created great discussions and reviews and day dreams. We also have a return of CM Punk who I thought I would never see again in wrestling. Never say never. With his return comes, good and bad, his unique style of promos that either create hype or disrupt norms. This weeks promo had both of that. But with that comes a intrigue into what the whole Hangman bit was about. You have to admit this is an interesting situation. @CodyFan69 made a great post about how moments like that are important in wrestling and shades of gray something something Cody Rhodes.

If you are above the drama, I respect that. But it’s going to be talked about when it is made public. If it’s a work something something Punkshot Lariat something MJF plane something then it did it’s job! If it’s a shoot ~brother~ then he called a man a coward on tv when he knew he wouldn’t respond. Neat television. Unpredictable television. Dragon television.
 

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1 hour ago, Gordlow said:

It could be recency bias and I don't know if I'll feel the same way in 20 years, but right now I feel like "Top Five 2 outa 3 All Time All Regions" is not the least bit unreasonable .

It doesn't have the same "historical impact" but I enjoyed Dragon vs Slayer at least as much as the famous Flair vs Steamboat or Atlantis vs Blue Panther matches, for example.

I don't want to pick on this statement but I'm a major enemy of recency bias. Hyping up (a very very good) Danielson/Garcia to this extent is ignoring 90% of every match that has ever taken place in Mexico, a majority of NWA title defenses, and a ton of recent classics. Omega/Okada 4, FTR/Briscoes, Atlantis/La Sombra, Double Inoues/Toyota + Yamada, Kansai + Ozaki/Toyota + Yamada, Atlantis/Villano III, Tsuruta/Flair, Santo/Casas, Mistico/ UG and Averno n a buncha other dudes, FTR/DIY, Los Gringos Locos/Santito + Octagon, MCMG/Beer Money, Danielson vs. Aries and Nigel and Paul London and Colt Cabana and Sheamus, and more Race / Flair / Funk / Bock / Inoki than I could count. 

Danielson/Garcia freaking ruled and that fact that we're getting that kind of stuff on free TV is wonderful thing. I could listen to an argument that its worth MOTY consideration and I mean no disrespect to the match or the opinion but it is not ever gonna sniff my Top 10. Although I do bet it beats some of the matches I named handily, if I ever go back and watch them all.

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37 minutes ago, Octopus said:

I guess if your work squabble was brought up on tv it would be talked about. Like when Nicki Ninaj called out Miley Cyrus at the VMA’s. Or the East Coast - West Coast beef. Or when Richard Sherman taunted Crabtree when he blocked that pass. In all entertainment and sports, when tense interpersonal conflict is made public in a showy matter, it is generally talked about. This isn’t wrestling specific but our culture as a whole. Go to Reddit when any hip hop diss-track drops. People go into the intricacies of the people involved. Megan thee Stallion’s song dissing Tory Lanez after he tried to (allegedly) shoot her. Those threads went deeeeep. Eminem vs Machine Gun Kelly was the same way. Podcasts too like when Joe Budden’s side guys left. Politics has been the same way the past few years with public discourse being more mockingly confrontational. To escape this is pretty much to leave all forms of social media and opinion/ talking points based television in both news, entertainment, and even comedy. Which some of that might actually be a healthier way to live if we riddled ourselves of most of that

But those aren't locker rooms. Nicki Minaj isn't opening for Miley Cyrus every Wednesday or vice versa, they're not employed by the same people. Universal vs. Sony - rival music houses. There's a difference between talking shit between artists signed to different megcorps, talking shit between athelets playing zero-sum games in actual sports, and what (ideally) is a collaborative creative effort in a wrestling locker room where you're literally and figuratively under the same roof at least once a week and the same guy is signing your checks.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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3 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

But those aren't locker rooms. Nicki Minaj isn't opening for Miley Cyrus every Wednesday or vice versa, they're not employed by the same people. Universal vs. Sony. There's a difference between talking shit between artists signed to different megcorps, talking shit between athelets playing zero-sum games in actual sports, and what (ideally) is a collaborative creative effort in a wrestling locker room where you're literally and figuratively under the same roof at least once a week and the same guy is signing your checks.

We are also talking about the World champion of a promotion though, and it's not just any person - it's CM Punk who's been known to stir up trouble. If this were about Luchasaurus or someone, sure I'd agree with you. However, if the reports are true and Punk isn't willing to put over Hangman Page and goes as far as to call him out on TV and make his character look "weak" in an unplanned spot I'd say that's a big deal.

That's AEWs first real "homegrown" champion in Hangman mind you. I'd like to think that carries a little credence in the AEW lore.

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12 minutes ago, Krone Meltzer said:

We are also talking about the World champion of a promotion though, and it's not just any person - it's CM Punk who's been known to stir up trouble. If this were about Luchasaurus or someone, sure I'd agree with you. However, if the reports are true and Punk isn't willing to put over Hangman Page and goes as far as to call him out on TV and make his character look "weak" in an unplanned spot I'd say that's a big deal.

That's AEWs first real "homegrown" champion in Hangman mind you. I'd like to think that carries a little credence in the AEW lore.

Yeah? I'm not disagreeing. If Punk is being as difficult as the sheets say I think it's a damm shame. It's be like Beyonce shitting on Brandi Carlisle, to extend the music industry metaphor. A decades-old First Class artist going after a certifiable unit-shifter signed to the same company (AEW/Sony) as them in that manner? It's unprofessional and unfortunate. But I'd rather the situation have a chance to resolve itself before being cast to the illogical and entitled speculations of the common gossip-mongering neomark.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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45 minutes ago, Octopus said:

@CodyFan69 made a great post about how moments like that are important in wrestling and shades of gray something something Cody Rhodes.

Is this what they call subtweeting? Am I a victim of subtweeting? Do I need to get a lawyer? 

Also, it's @CodyFan420. Don't pretend you don't know my name. 

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Also, people might not like the new "post-kayfabe" or whatever, but willfully not getting the appeal of hot goss coming out of a company that's pretty good at keeping hot goss from being leaked in a timely manner is pretty weird to me. And the goss is coming from the top guy in the company, who's pretty committed to appearing on the level and forthright in his own way in kayfabe. We see Danielson bangers on the reg, but we've been deprived this kind of CM Punk drama for a long time. It's not a mystery why some people are more fired up about one than the other. And in an industry where issues like this can be big business, this whole situation could become a big positive. My apologies for not responding to a pretty good Dynamite like it's Aguirre, the Wrath of God. 

I get that there's a lot of ugliness in gossip-mongering. If I ever treat an ugly celeb divorce like a misogynistic spectator sport, I hope someone tackles me a puts a stake through my heart. But this company has actively courted this kind of speculation with its handling of he MJF situation. If they're gonna splash around in this pool and then Punk does something like this, they're gonna get whatever attention and speculation they're entitled to. They've already started playing this game, and they know who they hired, so here we are. 

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19 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Yeah? I'm not disagreeing. If Punk is being as difficult as the sheets say I think it's a damm shame. It's be like Beyonce shitting on Brandi Carlisle, to extend the music industry metaphor. A decades-old First Class artist going after a certifiable unit-shifter signed to the same company (AEW/Sony) as them in that manner? It's unprofessional and unfortunate. But I'd rather the situation have a chance to resolve itself before being cast to the illogical and entitled speculations of the common gossip-mongering neomark.

Yes, it would be nice to have been handled in the locker room but my whole point with my previous post is that the issue itself was made public by being brought up on tv. At that point it is no longer kept in the locker room. That’s why it is being talked about, like other many instances of people making their drama public. 

In the imaginary scenario you laid out, add that Beyoncé called out or mocked Brandi in a live interview. It would be likely a talked about moment and people would speculate on the backstory. More so than in wrestling because Beyoncé has an intense fan base. But if your own scenario happened would you be surprised that people are discussing the Beyoncé-Brandi moment?

It can be beneath you and you can refer to people as neomarks or entitled and you can talk down to people for discussing it, but it was an odd moment that became newsworthy.

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5 hours ago, The Natural said:

Bryan Danielson is having an all time run in AEW:

  • Bryan Danielson vs. Kenny Omega. AEW Dynamite, 22nd September 2021. *****. My 2021 MOTY.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Minoru Suzuki. AEW The Buy In: Rampage, 15th October 2021. *****.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Eddie Kingston. AEW Rampage, 29th October 2021.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Adam Page. AEW Winter is Coming Dynamite, 15th December 2021. *****.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Adam Page. AEW Dynamite, 6th January 2022. *****. Probably still my 2022 MOTY.
  • Jon Moxley vs. Bryan Danielson. AEW Revolution 2022.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Wheeler Yuta. AEW Dynamite, 30th March 2022.
  • Anarchy in the Arena. AEW Double or Nothing 2022.
  • Bryan Danielson vs. Daniel Garcia. AEW Dynamite, 17th August 2022.

He’s what the kids call “on one..”

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6 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Also, people might not like the new "post-kayfabe" or whatever, but willfully not getting the appeal of hot goss coming out of a company that's pretty good at keeping hot goss from being leaked in a timely manner is pretty weird to me.

This is one of the reasons why it feels very much like a work. It's very similar to political leaks, you always have to look at the source and their agenda. Sometimes they're even "trial balloons", to see what kind of reaction a potential decision or policy might get. The best works, the best leaks, the best lies always have some element of truth. MJF is pissed about money and wants a bigger contract. Punk has a penchant for being a little petty and airing his grievances publicly. 

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YES. For a locker room that’s known for keeping secrets well, you really need to ask yourself how it is that every major dirt sheet seems to have the intimate details on this issue. Whether Punk and Hangman have legit heat or not, this is out right now because they want it out.

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This is awesome.  Lmfao. Also, he says MJF is returning shortly. Stick your fan purity tests up your ass. I thrive on this drama. All is right in the world. 

I do think back to Austin and company talking about how people in the Attitude era locker room were really competitive and wanted each others spots. Maybe ditching the veneer that "everybody is friendly and we all play games together in the back" atmosphere, at the very least in terms of what we as fans perceive, is on the  whole good and will help build tension in angles and in the ring. Maybe try to restore just an ounce of kayfabe. 

Or maybe everybody just fucking hates each other, it's super cliquey, and this will be destructive and very damaging to storytelling. I'm excited to find out. 

Either way we are now in a very different era from the wrestler heaven that AEW was seen as initially. 

Edited by Jiji
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I would have loved to see what went down between Ross and Khan after he went from scaling Ross' involvement from two hours a week to one and then to all three fucking hours of weekly television content. Ross stated that he wants to work until 2024 making it 50 years in wrestling. I found this amusing quote last night when talking with friends about how long we'd have to endure Ross:

Quote

"Anybody who says you're too old, f*ck yourself, how's that?" JR said.  "Yup, go ahead, pull it out and f*ck yourself. You're telling me I should stay home and die? You're dictating that I don't deserve to continue this career? I want to get to 2024. I really do, that's 50 years in the wrestling business and not a lot of guys can say they were in the basic same job in a fickle crazy-ass unpredictable business like pro wrestling for 50 years. Hopefully, the good lord's looking down and cut me a break. If we get to 50, I'll be the happiest guy in Norman Oklahoma."

He seems very entitled to say the least, which is unsurprising based on his commentary. 

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So... Hangman's gotta beat Punk's ass backstage, right? That's how these things usually play out?

If I'm Hangman, I'm waiting backstage for him next week and clocking his ass on sight. 

If this is a shoot, I'm 50/50 on that. Maybe 40/60.

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37 minutes ago, Jiji said:

I would have loved to see what went down between Ross and Khan after he went from scaling Ross' involvement from two hours a week to one and then to all three fucking hours of weekly television content. Ross stated that he wants to work until 2024 making it 50 years in wrestling. I found this amusing quote last night when talking with friends about how long we'd have to endure Ross:

He seems very entitled to say the least, which is unsurprising based on his commentary. 

I don’t think telling people that do nothing but look for excuses to shit on him (I always find it odd how Excalibur calling someone the wrong name or fumbling his words doesn’t elicit even half of the outrage JR doing it does from the commentary critics) off and having a goal to achieve something impressive is entitled. 
 

It’s probably more realistic to say that this goal is giving him a reason to continue to live.

 

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14 hours ago, Belgian_Waffle said:

My favorite ridiculous/illogical thing about Kane is that be comes to WWF in the first place for extremely personal reasons involving trying to murder his brother, then after that feud with Taker dies out he's like "fuck it may as well stick around and try to win wrestling titles".

He probably had no choice, his DDS license was probably revoked at that point, I mean what was he going to do, go into politics or some stupid shit like that?

...

...

...

...

...What?

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2 hours ago, Jiji said:

This is awesome.  Lmfao. Also, he says MJF is returning shortly. Stick your fan purity tests up your ass. I thrive on this drama. All is right in the world. 

I do think back to Austin and company talking about how people in the Attitude era locker room were really competitive and wanted each others spots. Maybe ditching the veneer that "everybody is friendly and we all play games together in the back" atmosphere, at the very least in terms of what we as fans perceive, is on the  whole good and will help build tension in angles and in the ring. Maybe try to restore just an ounce of kayfabe. 

Or maybe everybody just fucking hates each other, it's super cliquey, and this will be destructive and very damaging to storytelling. I'm excited to find out. 

Either way we are now in a very different era from the wrestler heaven that AEW was seen as initially. 

6qhaci.jpg

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1 hour ago, Bryan said:

I don’t think telling people that do nothing but look for excuses to shit on him (I always find it odd how Excalibur calling someone the wrong name or fumbling his words doesn’t elicit even half of the outrage JR doing it does from the commentary critics) off and having a goal to achieve something impressive is entitled. 

Excalibur flubs about a tenth as often as Ross. 

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