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July 2022 Wrestling Discussion


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4 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

There's some weirdly misogynistic undertones in discussing Sasha's worth/right to expect 30k for her time. She's worth as much as someone is prepared to pay her. By the sounds of things, promoters are prepared to pay it. Nor does it play into any attempt to spin some diva narrative about it either.

The "just asking questions" route while choosing to avoid critically analysing whether the other men are worth the price tags mentioned is a bit of a red flag in that context for where this discussion is coming from. 

Beyond that, why does anyone care what she makes?

I've been trying to limit how often I bring up misogyny because apparently I strike some raw nerves when I do so, but... yeah.

Two notes about this:

1) $30,000 for conventions is actually fairly cheap, especially if you break it down to a per day cost of $10,000 or $15,000. Let me pluck a convention out of thin air: GalaxyCon books a lot of wrestlers for their conventions, and with a couple of exceptions, their pricing is pretty consistent no matter which wrestler. I'll just link to Hangman Page, but it doesn't matter because it's the same for any wrestler unless you're Sting (where it's higher because, well, it's Sting) or an indie wrestler (where you are basically setting up as a vendor piggybacking on the AEW wrestlers and legends there, not as a contracted talent brought in by the convention, and are charging your own rate).

So $40 for an autograph, $40 for a table selfie, $60 for a combo of the autograph and table selfie, or $60 for the professional photo op. And that's for a run of the mill wrestler. (For those curious, Sting is $60 for an autograph and $70 for the photo op, no table selfies.)

Sasha isn't going to be charging those rates because Sasha falls within a unique category, because she will be able to draw wrestling fans and Star Wars obsessives due to her appearance on the Mandalorian (however big or small the role might have been).

Who else is appearing at GalaxyCon Raleigh? Katee Sackhoff, who was in the Mandalorian with Sasha. Note her autograph pricing. $120 for an autograph on Star Wars items. $80 for an autograph on non-Star Wars items, or an 8x10. $80 for a table selfie. $100 for a professional photo op. Her prices are going to be higher than Sasha's, but those Mandalorian appearances put Sasha in a unique category and conventions will likely put her close to this tier.

Sasha's a double draw for these conventions thanks to that Star Wars connection, so I dare say $30,000 is underpaid.

2) Let's also analyze if the men charging high price tags are worth it on indie wrestling shows. Short answer: no. Remember how I said Ric Flair charged $16,000? Do you also remember how I said the promoter didn't make their money back? You also have to accept the upcharge on security and venue costs to accommodate the higher than usual amount of fans. Flair got paid, as did the other names brought in (Ricky Morton, Bobby Eaton, the Barbarian), but local talent got nothing. And what did the local promotion get from it? A one night bump in attendance, then right back to square one for the next show, which didn't happen for four months because the promotion lost too much money to run again until then. That promotion was averaging 100-150 for their shows before Flair, and it averaged 100-150 after Flair. All to get a five minute rambling Flair promo where he called the promotion by the wrong name.

I worked on indies for close to a decade, and I don't think I ever saw an instance where bringing in a name of that magnitude helped long-term attendance. It was great for a short-term bump but it never really did anything to maintain the audience because the elevated costs just ended up torpedoing later shows. Maybe that's just poor cost management by the promoters I worked for, but really, when you book a name, you draw in people to come see that name. Once that name is gone, you'd better hope you've hooked the people who came to see that name, and 99% of the time that just doesn't happen. Way too much risk.

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15 hours ago, Gordlow said:

Happy birthday to a heck of a wrestler, a great technician in the ring, and a jam up guy: Alexander Otsuka!

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He's one of the best ever to do it. Probably all-time top 20 for me,in terms of how much I enjoy his matches.

Maybe celebrate by watching this:

 

Damn, this is a name drop from those old PRIDE DVD's I used to watch. Had no idea he was a wrestler now!

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It’s also Daffney’s Birthday today. Jamie Senegal’s tribute post to her Mum was quite touching.

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I have never watched Alexander Otsuka's pro wrestling, but I probably should. As I recall, his MMA and puroresu careers were concurrent. 

Also, go look at his record. PRIDE absolutely threw him to the lions, with the exception of two or three fights. Possibly the only Japanese pro-wrestler who ever got done dirtier in MMA was Yuji Nagata.

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24 minutes ago, Teflon Turtle said:

I have never watched Alexander Otsuka's pro wrestling, but I probably should. As I recall, his MMA and puroresu careers were concurrent. 

Also, go look at his record. PRIDE absolutely threw him to the lions, with the exception of two or three fights. Possibly the only Japanese pro-wrestler who ever got done dirtier in MMA was Yuji Nagata.

At least he got to compete in that legendary 2000 Grand Prix. That DVD used to be one of my most prized collections, featuring an absolutely historic Sakuraba/Gracie fight that goes AN HOUR AND A HALF.

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1 hour ago, Teflon Turtle said:

I have never watched Alexander Otsuka's pro wrestling, but I probably should. As I recall, his MMA and puroresu careers were concurrent. 

Also, go look at his record. PRIDE absolutely threw him to the lions, with the exception of two or three fights. Possibly the only Japanese pro-wrestler who ever got done dirtier in MMA was Yuji Nagata.

In their ten years of existence, PRIDE was known for their underhanded tactics when it came to matchmaking. Japanese natives (usually smaller pro wrestlers) and those who were not represented by top, well known handlers and agents got the short end of the stick. PRIDE made their bones on mismatches and telling the A side fighter about a fight they were going to make weeks before the B side fighter would know.

Yes, it (along with the unregulated use of PEDs) made for some great highlight reels and helped some people get over as destroyers. However, that was unsustainable on top of being messed up ethically. I liked PRIDE and do miss it somewhat, but people got deluded into what MMA really was/is. It's been gone for 15 years now, and the one part I actually don't miss is the element certain people loved.

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2 hours ago, Krone Meltzer said:

Damn, this is a name drop from those old PRIDE DVD's I used to watch. Had no idea he was a wrestler now!

Being a wrestler was what got him into PRIDE. Ah, Battlarts. How delightful and weird you were. For example, here's him having a normal match against Yuki Ishikawa...

Then here's him a few months later when they inexplicably brought in the Road Warriors. Great fit for a shootstyle promotion!

 

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At the time I thought of Battlarts as a nostalgia promotion. Ishikawa would do reenactments of Inoki against Tiger Jeet Singh and the like, plus bringing in Road Warriors, Bob Backland and more.

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1 hour ago, Blue Dragon said:

Undertaker
Fake Undertaker

The Great Muta
The GREAT MUTA

Nature Boy Ric Flair
Nature Boy Buddy Landel

Tam Nakano
Nao Ishikawa

Sting
nWo Sting

Kane 

Fake Kane

I love that stuff.

The NE indy scene produced a bunch of knockoffs back in the day: Dave Jericho, Dave Mysterio and Big Slam Vader all come to mind.

E: Totally forgot about Nise Onita.

There was also another fake Jericho after Kid Kash quit doing the gimmick who apparently didn't make Cagematch.

Edited by Zimbra
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15 hours ago, Phantom Lord said:

I think it was posted here years ago but there's a Gary Hart promo where he explains him and the OMG used to be part of the same crew in Chicago. Moon was Gang's nickname.

Yes...mine was a poor attempt at humor.

OMG was Moon, Gary Hart was called Slick.

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11 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

There's some weirdly misogynistic undertones in discussing Sasha's worth/right to expect 30k for her time. She's worth as much as someone is prepared to pay her. By the sounds of things, promoters are prepared to pay it. Nor does it play into any attempt to spin some diva narrative about it either.

The "just asking questions" route while choosing to avoid critically analysing whether the other men are worth the price tags mentioned is a bit of a red flag in that context for where this discussion is coming from. 

Beyond that, why does anyone care what she makes?

I didn't know until going through this thread that She was only in 2 Mandalorian episodes because I'm not really into StarWars but She has an action figure. That's and accomplishment not many wrestlers get to have when they are Currently or Very recently on main stream TV like Jesse Ventura in the Predator or Slaughter on GI Joe. 

Sasha just in the wrestling bubble has the most loyal fanbase, some of them to a creepy scary level. Even Charlotte who has been pushed stronger and harder more consistently by WWE doesn't have the same fan base as Sasha does. Don't get me wrong, the Women's roster as a whole in WWE each of them have their stans and very loyal fans of them that probably wasn't seen in previous generations of womens wrestlers. 

I think there will be alot of wrestlers and legends probably considering leveling up their price for these types of conventions because she's a Female but unless your Austin or Even Flair I don't think anyone else would be close to worth 30k for a convention in wrestling that's not directly signed to WWE unless your Batista.

I

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I'm not a fan, but I'd say she's worth getting "market value" more than people like Braun or even Bray on the convention circuit. Modern day wresting has certainly shown that the Stan subset of women’s wresing fan(atics) can be easily separated from their money, whether it's by promoters or the talent themselves (Amazon wish lists, cameo, only fans, ...).  Carnys gotta carny. 

Edited by odessasteps
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3 hours ago, Blue Dragon said:

Undertaker
Fake Undertaker

The Great Muta
The GREAT MUTA

Nature Boy Ric Flair
Nature Boy Buddy Landel

Tam Nakano
Nao Ishikawa

Sting
nWo Sting

Kane 

Fake Kane

I love that stuff.

Fake Diesel
Kevin Nash

Fake Razor
Scott Hall

John Cena
Darren Young

Renegade
Ultimate Warrior

Sin Cara
Evil Sin Cara

Doink Invitational Battle Royale

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4 hours ago, Blue Dragon said:

Undertaker
Fake Undertaker

The Great Muta
The GREAT MUTA

Nature Boy Ric Flair
Nature Boy Buddy Landel

Tam Nakano
Nao Ishikawa

Sting
nWo Sting

Kane 

Fake Kane

I love that stuff.

Randy Savage/Ultimate Warrior/Ric Flair/Hulk Hogan

mqdefault.jpg

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Would you count Pentagon/Octagon? 
 

Tiger Mask/Black Tiger

Great Sasuke / Sasuke the Great 

as mentioned recently, American Dream Mike Davis 

Dragon Kid / Darkness Dragon

Santo / Santo Negro 

there have a number of times the “wrestled under a mask comes in as X only for real X to show up later” gimmick was done 

 

Edited by odessasteps
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3 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:



John Cena
Darren Young


 

This, right here, is the biggest missed shot of Cena's career. Darren Young as Cena's long lost half brother should have been wrestling 101.

Cena tells the kid to make it on his own at first. One night Young is getting beaten down mercilessly. Cena makes the save and takes him under his wing. Build Young up with some bigger TV wins. After a couple of months they start tag teaming and eventually win the tag titles with Young being the guy to get the pin.

Don't turn either one heel!

When they lose the tag titles Cena says that he's done everything he can to help Young find his inner HLR and now it's time to go their separate ways and BANG you've made a legit mid/upper-mid card act that can weave in and out of Cena's orbit for the rest of his career.

Crazy that this didn't happen.

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