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July 2022 Wrestling Discussion


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I know re: Scott, but it's a shame that he only became a singles star once he got roided up to a level of gross immobility. 

Lex should never have been a heel. Vince's wavering faith in Bret is one thing, but to have a heel dominate the title for a year in a territory that thrives on a mega-face knocking off monsters is backwards. He should have come in as a face off the jump. I get that the quickie face-turn was because Hogan left, but that they had to do a quick face turn of Luger at all shows a deficit in planning. 

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23 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I know re: Scott, but it's a shame that he only became a singles star once he got roided up to a level of gross immobility. 

Go back and look at Scott circa World War III 1997. It's fucking absurd how big he is. Before that, he was just stepping up to that line of being unable to move. By fall 1997, it was point of no return.

During the WWF years, the Steiners were also working New Japan IIRC. I don't think WWF was that hot giving someone a super push who was also working outside WWF. 

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Lex should never have been a heel. Vince's wavering faith in Bret is one thing, but to have a heel dominate the title for a year in a territory that thrives on a mega-face knocking off monsters is backwards. He should have come in as a face off the jump. I get that the quickie face-turn was because Hogan left, but that they had to do a quick face turn of Luger at all shows a deficit in planning. 

Has anyone been screwed more times by forced turns or being at the wrong place at the wrong time than Lex?

Sting gets hurt at the Clash in Texas, and Lex has to turn abruptly so Flair can have an opponent. Won't get the title cause Flair wants to give it to Sting. Flair gets fired/quits in July 1991, has to do the makeshift main event with Windham at GAB 1991 that people shit on. Wants out of WCW in late 1991 and then eventually does leave in 1992, but cannot wrestle due to an agreement with WCW. Was gonna do the WBF, but got hurt in a motorcycle accident. Comes back when he can wrestle, gets a nonstarter gimmick cause Lex isn't charismatic enough to pull it off and it being dumb to start with. Gets a chance to become the biggest star in wrestling, but they botch it for one big pop with ZERO leadup. Then, never gets the title.

I know Lex got all the chances in the world for a guy who wasn't that talented enough to get all those chances, but he was absolutely snakebit.

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I think Luger actually is very charismatic by the time he returns to WCW in 1995. He figured all that stuff out as he was on his decline in-ring, unfortunately for him. But his goofy heel stuff pre-nWo and his face stuff as one of the guys leading the line against the nWo is really good and he's versatile as a character there. His Total Package/Totally Buff stuff was good, too, and that was like a modernized version of The Narcissist. His ring work and promo/character work just never lined up for him at the right time, on top of things never really lining up for him in terms of being at the right place, right time.

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4 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Has anyone been screwed more times by forced turns or being at the wrong place at the wrong time than Lex?

Sting gets hurt at the Clash in Texas, and Lex has to turn abruptly so Flair can have an opponent. Won't get the title cause Flair wants to give it to Sting.

Four PPVs against Flair during a 22-month period that had only had 9 PPVs.  Between that awful blood stoppage in 88 (I was there...the fans definitely would have gone nuts for Lex winning the belt), going to a time limit draw at that Starrcade 1989 tournament, and then being forced back into the title picture in 1990 for back to back PPVs where he couldn't win the title, WCW really turned Luger into The Guy Who Can't Win The Big One. 

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6 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I think Luger actually is very charismatic by the time he returns to WCW in 1995. He figured all that stuff out as he was on his decline in-ring, unfortunately for him. But his goofy heel stuff pre-nWo and his face stuff as one of the guys leading the line against the nWo is really good and he's versatile as a character there. His Total Package/Totally Buff stuff was good, too, and that was like a modernized version of The Narcissist. His ring work and promo/character work just never lined up for him at the right time, on top of things never really lining up for him in terms of being at the right place, right time.

Bischoff and whoever was booking WCW at the time knew how to use him. I've said this before and still maintain that.

I think his first NWA JCP/WCW run was marred by the fact they wanted him to be in that Race/Jack Brisco/Flair type champion when that's not him. Sting got over by being something completely different than your traditional territory top guy. Luger ain't a Four Horseman. He ain't your traditional world champion. He's a jacked up dude who can barely do interviews and can have manageable matches. Make him a goddamn superhero, not a cerebral wrestler that he obviously isn't.

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6 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Four PPVs against Flair during a 22-month period that had only had 9 PPVs.  Between that awful blood stoppage in 88 (I was there...the fans definitely would have gone nuts for Lex winning the belt), going to a time limit draw at that Starrcade 1989 tournament, and then being forced back into the title picture in 1990 for back to back PPVs where he couldn't win the title, WCW really turned Luger into The Guy Who Can't Win The Big One. 

I felt like Windham was in that same wheelhouse (the two runs split by his WWF Widowmaker run). He became what Bill Parcells coined...JAG (Just Another Guy).

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3 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

That all begs the question, what IS the WORST WrestleMania of all time??

I have a few candidates floating around in my head but I'd like to hear more thoughts from the board.

32 is pretty bad. I think Triple H is still working on Roman Reigns' arm.

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11 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I felt like Windham was in that same wheelhouse (the two runs split by his WWF Widowmaker run). He became what Bill Parcells coined...JAG (Just Another Guy).

Definitely.  Windham being shoved into the Bash '91 main event for the title vs Luger with no build was laughable.  Guy was in his second Horsemen run (which was meaningless), spinning his wheels for months going into the show and I think he was slated to be in the show's intergender comedy match before it was rebooked.  To put it in modern perspective, it would have been like when Punk got hurt, they booked Moxley vs Brian Pillman Jr. for the vacant title.

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Just now, Technico Support said:

Definitely.  Windham being shoved into the Bash '91 main event for the title vs Luger with no build was laughable.  Guy was in his second Horsemen run (which was meaningless), spinning his wheels for months going into the show and I think he was slated to be in the show's intergender comedy match before it was rebooked.

I think they stuck Windham in there hoping to get a watchable match out of the situation. Just wasn't meant to be though. If Harley hadn't shown up during that match when would've "been the time"?

James

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Lex billed as coming from Chicago? I swear I remember that and it used to bug the shit out of me because he was like the least Chicago guy ever.

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1 minute ago, Craig H said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Lex billed as coming from Chicago? I swear I remember that and it used to bug the shit out of me because he was like the least Chicago guy ever.

Yes, for the a good portion of his career, it was Chicago.

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3 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Ventura and Gorilla were amazing on commentary together.  You get the vibe they're good friends and some of the stuff they say to each other is hilarious.  On at least two occasions, Ventura jokes about Monsoon's career "fifty years ago" which was amazing.

I'll forever pronounce his name GO-rilla, because of Jesse. 

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14 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Lex billed as coming from Chicago? I swear I remember that and it used to bug the shit out of me because he was like the least Chicago guy ever.

It ends up being used to pretty good effect during a short Road Warriors/Sting and Luger feud in 1996 when the Roadies rightly point out that if Luger's from Chicago, he's a suburban boy, and then they challenge Luger and Sting to a Chicago Street Fight.

The kicker is that Sting asks Luger what a Chicago Street Fight is, assuming that Luger knows the culture of street fighting on the mean streets of Chicago, and Luger's just like, "Uh, I dunno what that's about at all." It was a genuinely funny moment.

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1 minute ago, odessasteps said:

Lex's connection to Da U should have been played up more, esp vs Ron Simmons. 

I just watched Havoc 91 a week or two ago, and you would think Ross would have a field day. However, I don't think it comes up much.

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3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Here is my little fantasy booking the territory scenario: If you must have Luger as the Hulk Hogan replacement, you need to place Luger and Yokozuna within one or two degrees of each other. I see it where Lex and Yoko are tagging against Duggan (who Yoko was programmed with around that time) and maybe like Virgil or someone perfectly disposable as the feature match on Superstars two or three weeks out from the Stars and Stripes Challenge.

The layout for the match isn’t as important as the post-match. The finish would be Luger laying out Virgil with the loaded forearm of doom. Afterwards, Luger starts doing his lame Narcissist posing to the hard cam. Meanwhile, Duggan is checking on the unconscious Virgil. Out of nowhere, Yoko attacks Duggan and then drags him over to the corner. Totally oblivious to what’s going on, Luger continues posing on the other side of the ring. Fuji motions Yoko to go up, and Yoko demolishes Duggan with a Banzai Drop. Luger turns around sort of bewildered just as Yoko is getting off top of a seriously hurt Duggan. Fuji then motions Yoko to go up again for another Banzai Drop. Luger goes over to Fuji and asks Fuji what the hell is going on. Yoko doesn’t give a damn and hits Duggan with a second Banzai Drop. Duggan is basically a pancake at this point. Fuji brushes off Luger and says Yoko isn’t done yet. Yoko goes up again and just before he is going to deliver a career ending and possibly fatal(!) third Banzai drop, Luger dives in and shields our fallen hero Hacksaw Jim Duggan. Yoko gets angry, climbs down, and starts yelling at Lex and Lex argues back. Then, Fuji decides they still aren’t done. Fuji wants Luger to prove his loyalty to these anti-Americans and deliver one last loaded forearm to an already half dead Duggan. Fuji motions Yoko to pick up Duggan, and Yoko obliges. Lex looks to the crowd in order to see what he should do. He plays up the moral dilemma huge. The crowd obviously doesn’t want him to do it.  Vince of course oversells the shit out of it on commentary saying, “Don’t do it, Lex! No! No!”. Lex brings up his forearm and sort of looks at it. He puts it down. Then, he exits the ring and heads to the back in disgust. Yoko is totally confused by Lex’s actions.

Then, the following Raw two days later, you have Jim Ross do a sitdown with Lex at his home in Atlanta and asks why he did what he did. You don’t have Lex do the typical halfway babyface interview. You have Lex say that why he isn’t friends with Duggan or Virgil at all, he was completely disgusted by the actions of Yokozuna and Mr. Fuji. They had already won the match, and they proved they were the better men. It was completely uncalled for. When it comes down to it, at the end of the day, he is still a proud, red blooded American and couldn’t stand by to watch Yoko do that or contribute anymore to it. For his final question, Ross asks if Luger will show up for the Stars and Stripes Challenge on July 4. Luger just says he doesn’t know. He honestly cannot answer Jim’s question because he doesn’t know if the fans will accept him after KOing people with his loaded forearm for months now or being egotistic. He also doesn’t know if he can realistically bodyslam the WWF World Champion Yokozuna. However, if he isn’t there, he would like someone to humble Yokozuna and do the deed in his absence.

You play up the “Is Lex going show up on July 4” on Raw and the syndicated shows heavily. Boom. You have an instant mega babyface when this dude shows up and bodyslams Yokozuna.

I think the only tweak I'd make is have the finish be Luger picking up Yokozuna and slamming him on top of Duggan for the pin. Then have the post-match focus on speculating whether Yokozuna allowed him to do it, or whether Lex is just that strong. Instantly putting him over as a threat but they're still partners.

Then you do the USS Intrepid angle where no one gets close. Then Lex slams him easily again. Maybe they're still buddy buddy but tempers flare here based on the reaction and this time it's clear it wasn't without any assistance.

Now you've built him up as a credible threat and there's justification for him turning.

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25 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

I think the only tweak I'd make is have the finish be Luger picking up Yokozuna and slamming him on top of Duggan for the pin. Then have the post-match focus on speculating whether Yokozuna allowed him to do it, or whether Lex is just that strong. Instantly putting him over as a threat but they're still partners.

Then you do the USS Intrepid angle where no one gets close. Then Lex slams him easily again. Maybe they're still buddy buddy but tempers flare here based on the reaction and this time it's clear it wasn't without any assistance.

Now you've built him up as a credible threat and there's justification for him turning.

I think something like that works if WWF teased or had heels be there when they did the Stars and Stripe Challenge. They just sent random football players, some midcarders, and Macho Man. Besides Macho Man and a very select few others, it was a weak ass lineup. They could have teased Million Man trying to pay off Fuji to let him or IRS slam Yokozuna. You can also have that same thing with Shawn trying to convince Fuji to let his new bodyguard Diesel slam him and let Shawn take all the credit. Then, Fuji ultimately rebuffs their lucrative offers. Otherwise, people still are not convinced they should cheer Lex going forward or why it's a big deal.

In my mind, this revolves largely around Yokozuna being this unstoppable, chaotic monster heel (which they kinda pissed on by Hogan beating him but whatever). They did an awesome angle before WM IX where he attacked Bret at the contract signing. You have him doing the flag thing with Duggan. You have him "ending Hulkamania" and taking the WWF title. You need someone to stop him and a legit reason WHY someone would. If it has to be Lex Luger, I think the only way to do it is to set it up where he starts the turn and then sanitizes himself out the Narcissist junk. Then, the completion of the turn is him answering people's prayers and showing up to do what no one could.

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2 hours ago, cwoy2j said:

32 is pretty bad. I think Triple H is still working on Roman Reigns' arm.

I think WM32 is right up there with the worst, it's been mentioned a few times now and I do remember hating it. 

The main event really sucked and the best match is probably the women's triple threat but in my opinion Sasha Banks should have won there and not Charlotte so there's just a lot of things I dislike about the show. 

Here's some other candidates: 

-WM 11 I don't remember much about Shawn vs. Diesel and 1995 is the start of a dreadful period for WWF. Those couple years were rough. 

-WM 15 This really sucked too, bunch of short Attitude Era bullshit and they tried to hang The Big Bossman. The Rock vs. Austin is decent but it ranks 3rd for me in their trilogy. 

There's a couple other contenders I'm thinking about..

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On the rewatch, XI is fine if it was an IYH PPV and not Mania. I don't care much for the opener between the Blu Twins and the Allied Powers. Bret vs. Backlund is ruined by Roddy as a ref. Owen/Yoko vs. The Smoking Gunns is depressing because Rodney is still grossly out of shape even after going to the weight loss clinic. The good stuff: Razor vs. Jarrett is good. Shawn vs. Diesel is pretty damn good. Bam Bam vs. LT is fun as hell even by today's standards. 

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11 hours ago, Tarheel Moneghetti said:

Is this the Jimmy Garvin fancam or is that different?  At one point years ago, I had a backstage fancam supposedly shot by Garvin that outed some of the talent’s drinking, drugging, and womanizing.  It’s been so long since I saw it that I barely remember what is on it, but a decade or two ago, it was considered sort of shocking.  Supposedly, some of the locker room was unhappy Garvin shot it and let it get out.

 

 

Yes sir this is the Garvin shot one!! 

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