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July 2022 Wrestling Discussion


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28 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I vaguely recall him talking about it. Vaguely.

Speaking as someone who grew up in a low income African-American household, I know kids would drift in and out obsessions and fads. However, the more accessible it was, the more likely they would stick with. I mean growing up in the Mississippi Delta, we had both Walter Payton AND Jerry Rice as influences. From my home county (Sunflower), we had Archie Manning and my hometown had "Slammin" Sam Lacey who was an NBA player. Lacey was way before my time, but still a big name and he lived in my hometown for a good long time. And we're talking about a place and region with a very small population. So everyone's goal was to play either football or hoops. A lot of the HBCUs had solid baseball programs as well so that was also an option.

Maybe the older folks would have a better answer, when did the fanaticism for pro wrestling (meaning to the point someone would want to become one) begin? Was it the late 80s/early 90s that people wanted to be pro wrestlers? It's not like you had wrestling schools everywhere.

Well, you always had guys wanting to be in the business even in the 60s and 70s. Eaton, Gordy, Arn, the Gulf Coast guys like Hates, Percy, Tatum. 

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5 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I think there could be an argument made for simply any representation outside of the one Black wrestler that would be on the card in some promotions. How many promotions treated Black wrestlers as a commodity and only booked one, maybe two in each territory at a time? Considering how closed off the business was, not to mention how racist a lot of people in power were, it's an interesting thought exercise to wonder if the lack of Black wrestlers during that time period was an artificial scarcity moreso than them being in other sports.

Granted most cards back in the day were only 5 or 6 matches, most cards would top out at 2 black wrestlers max and that's even counting Caribbean wrestlers like Carlos Colon or whatever the hell Abdullah the Butcher is. So yeah, that's pretty much it in a nutshell. I mean even with Ernie Ladd, he had to be the booker to have some modicum of power within wrestling.

Given how I've heard stories from like New Jack about how Ray Candy told him how the business was, Stevie Ray not trusting people to the point he was going pull a gun on Vader for taking liberties on him, and how notoriously guarded Ahmed was when he got to WWF, it wouldn't shock me if nearly every African-American wrestler for decades had their head on a swivel.

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7 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Funny. I guess Malone was closer to the Dallas territory than Watts/McGuirk, even though he was in Louisiana. 

without knowing if his mother lived in Dallas at some point in her life, I'd guess some sort of family tie to the Dallas area. It's a little under 70 miles from Summerfield to Shreveport, 95 miles from Summerfield to Texarkana. But i'd guess Dallas was a hotter territory than McGuirk during the 1970s and a TV with an antenna could plausibly get some stations airing Dallas wrestling too. The Sportatorium probably seemed safer for a single Black mother with a kid than spot shows in Northern Louisiana.

Also means that if Dallas-native Dennis Rodman watched any wrestling growing up, he was watching the same stuff that Karl Malone was watching.

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7 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Well, you always had guys wanting to be in the business even in the 60s and 70s. Eaton, Gordy, Arn, the Gulf Coast guys like Hates, Percy, Tatum. 

I know certain guys wanted to be in the business (especially folks who had a strong territory nearby), but when did the nationwide obsession begin where it transcended racial lines?

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2 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

without knowing if his mother lived in Dallas at some point in her life, I'd guess some sort of family tie to the Dallas area. It's a little under 70 miles from Summerfield to Shreveport, 95 miles from Summerfield to Texarkana. But i'd guess Dallas was a hotter territory than McGuirk during the 1970s and a TV with an antenna could plausibly get some stations airing Dallas wrestling too. The Sportatorium probably seemed safer for a single Black mother with a kid than spot shows in Northern Louisiana.

Also means that if Dallas-native Dennis Rodman watched any wrestling growing up, he was watching the same stuff that Karl Malone was watching.

Mid-South use to run Greenville, MS regularly and that is like 15 minutes away from my hometown, but I believe Memphis had the much stronger presence given everyone had WMC-TV in the Mississippi Delta.

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On one recent Charting the Territories, they were talking about how rare the Candy vs Ladd feud was, since Ladd was one of the rare black heels in a Southern promotion. Not to mention the rarity probably at the time of two black workers feuding. Unless later in the 80s and beyond when that became a common booking occurrence (the 2 black guys either teamed, fended or both one after the other).

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6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I know certain guys wanted to be in the business (especially folks who had a strong territory nearby), but when did the nationwide obsession begin where it transcended racial lines?

When people realized they could make money off anyone thanks to a school, regardless of skin color, instead of breaking their ankles so they could tell their friends that rasslin' was real. Money is the equalizer in a lot of situations. It's why Watts pushed the people he did, and he's been open about it.

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37 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Funny. I guess Malone was closer to the Dallas territory than Watts/McGuirk, even though he was in Louisiana. 

I distinctly remember Karl Malone getting a brief mention and shown on camera sitting in the crowd at the Sportatorium during a Von Erich match.

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33 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

On one recent Charting the Territories, they were talking about how rare the Candy vs Ladd feud was, since Ladd was one of the rare black heels in a Southern promotion. Not to mention the rarity probably at the time of two black workers feuding. Unless later in the 80s and beyond when that became a common booking occurrence (the 2 black guys either teamed, fended or both one after the other).

I remember you bringing that up (the Candy vs. Ladd feud). 

I wonder if had JYD been the same phenomenon he was for Watts later on in WWF if that would have triggered something. Like I said before, I vaguely remember the end of Dog's run for Watts but I do remember him in WWF. And because Mid-South covered so much territory (and much of that area poor as hell), New Orleans may have as been on the moon for a lot of folks. I don't think it had as profound effect as it could have.

That said, I remember comedian JJ Williamson (who is from Mississippi as well but a bit older than me so it makes sense) bringing up Butch Reed on a comedy special he did about two decades ago. He was clearly referencing the Butch Reed from his run in Mid-South and not later on WWF/Doom Butch Reed. I admit that caught me off guard. Between JJ and Daniel Cormier, I haven't heard too many black people bring up watching Mid-South who would have been able to watch it.

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51 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I think there could be an argument made for simply any representation outside of the one Black wrestler that would be on the card in some promotions. How many promotions treated Black wrestlers as a commodity and only booked one, maybe two in each territory at a time? Considering how closed off the business was, not to mention how racist a lot of people in power were, it's an interesting thought exercise to wonder if the lack of Black wrestlers during that time period was an artificial scarcity moreso than them being in other sports.

Since I grew up watching in the 80s, it’s really wild to see matches in AEW (who, granted, still has a ways to go) where like 4 out of 6 wrestlers and the ref are all African American.  Like we got Swerve & Lee vs Hobbs & Starks vs The Bucks which would have been unheard of back in the days when “non white” meant that’s your gimmick.

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8 hours ago, Marcel said:

I think one of the early WWF tapes on Coliseum Home Video had Gorilla Monsoon talking about how Killer Kowalski would use the claw sometimes on the stomach or knee.  Always thought that could add another layer of storytelling if someone were to start using it for a finisher today.

---

10:40 on the crossword.

Edited by PetrolCB
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Not sure if this is forbidden topic but I went through some old boxes and found a ton of old WWF magazines and programs from 1983-1987 and didn't know their worth. Would prefer to not go off of Ebay and didn't know if anyone knew of any good wrestling magazine sites?

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5 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Since I grew up watching in the 80s, it’s really wild to see matches in AEW (who, granted, still has a ways to go) where like 4 out of 6 wrestlers and the ref are all African American.  Like we got Swerve & Lee vs Hobbs & Starks vs The Bucks which would have been unheard of back in the days when “non white” meant that’s your gimmick.

Last night we got Willow and Athena vs Jade and Keira, with an African American ref and Stoke and Jermaine Dupri at ringside.

And RE: the Claw Hold

I thought Barry Windham did an amazing job making it look killer during his 1988 heel run.

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On 7/18/2022 at 4:27 PM, BobbyWhioux said:


taking the most simple definition of good booking vs bad booking being "good booking builds audience by making more people want to watch the next show" vs "bad booking shrinks the audience by making fewer people watch the next show" and thus defining contenders for "worst booking decision" as those that cause the greatest reduction in audience...

since "the last 20 years" still barely includes 2003 I'm going to take this opportunity to ONCE AGAIN point out that Triple H beating Booker T emphatically at WM19, specifically after that kind of a build, permanently eroded some of my wrestling fandom.

And that's what this question is, for me, all about.  The decisions that made you not wanna watch [as much] anymore, for significant lengths of time.

Worst booking decision makes me thing of Death of WCW type stuff. I would say worst booking decision as far as money left on the table in not going with American Dragon as your top guy in 2014/2015. TNA/Impact never got to the point where I felt they could have left money on the table.

On 7/18/2022 at 3:43 PM, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

What's the best booking decision that any company has made that was followed up the most ineptly? 

Like, I'm thinking the widest gulf between "initial booking decision" and "fallout (or lack thereof) to build out from initial booking decision."

My answer tot his would be my runner up to the above. Punk winning the title and leaving the promotion 

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5 hours ago, zendragon said:

Worst booking decision makes me thing of Death of WCW type stuff. I would say worst booking decision as far as money left on the table in not going with American Dragon as your top guy in 2014/2015. 

???

He won the title at Wrestlemania in 2014 and then almost immediately had to vacate the title due to injury. Missed the rest of the year, returned in 2015… won the IC title… and then just as quickly retired for the first time. I don’t see how money was left on the table in this instance.

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5 hours ago, Overly Critical Man said:

???

He won the title at Wrestlemania in 2014 and then almost immediately had to vacate the title due to injury. Missed the rest of the year, returned in 2015… won the IC title… and then just as quickly retired for the first time. I don’t see how money was left on the table in this instance.

Maybe Bryan Danielson's failing body was booking at that point.

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5 hours ago, Overly Critical Man said:

???

He won the title at Wrestlemania in 2014 and then almost immediately had to vacate the title due to injury. Missed the rest of the year, returned in 2015… won the IC title… and then just as quickly retired for the first time. I don’t see how money was left on the table in this instance.

After he won at Wrestlemania, he was immediately put in a long, awful feud with Kane. Then,if he hadn't gotten hurt, he would've been destroyed by Brock at SummerSlam. I'm not inclined to let them off the hook because of circumstance.

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6 hours ago, Overly Critical Man said:

???

He won the title at Wrestlemania in 2014 and then almost immediately had to vacate the title due to injury. Missed the rest of the year, returned in 2015… won the IC title… and then just as quickly retired for the first time. I don’t see how money was left on the table in this instance.

Maybe my timeline is off but I think refusing to go with him as the top guy in the company not only left money on the table but turned off a number of fans by saying "no matter what you want we won't give it to you" there was a meme that I can find that showed hogan, then austin, then bryan saying its happening again. Imagine if Vince had never gotten on board with Austin's big push

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