THOR: Love & Thunder (2022)

[J.T.]

On 7/12/2022 at 9:05 AM, TheVileOne said:

I'd hardly consider this website the authority on name genealogy when it writes, "The name Astrid is girl's name."

I repeat.

Astrid is not a boy's name, dude.

Edited August 4, 2022 by J.T.

[TheVileOne]

18 minutes ago, J.T. said:

I repeat.

Astrid is not a boy's name, dude.

Incorrect:

https://www.verywellfamily.com/astrid-name-meaning-origin-popularity-5186873

Quote

• Gender: The name Astrid is historically feminine but can be given to babies of any gender.

 

[J.T.]

What part of historically feminine did you not understand?

The rather inconclusive "can be given to babies of any gender" thing does not make my earlier statement incorrect.

Love & Thunder is riddled with LGBTQ+ humor, so it is not a bridge too far to conclude that the Axl / Astrid thing is a trans joke.  If you didn't catch on or just refuse to accept it, I am not sure what to say.

Edited July 12, 2022 by J.T.

[TheVileOne]

10 minutes ago, J.T. said:

What part of historically feminine did you not understand?

The rather inconclusive "Can be given to babies of any gender" thing does not make my earlier statement incorrect.

Love & Thunder is riddled with LGBTQ+ humor, so it is not a bridge too far to conclude that the Axl / Astrid thing is a trans joke.  If you didn't catch on or just refuse to accept it, I am not sure what to say.

I did catch on, but this whole issue started because someone misinterpreted Thor referring to Axl as "Heimdall's daughter" which was never said at all in the film. And just because people are identifying this dialogue exchange as being a reference to an issue doesn't make it so. People are definitely conflating things using internet telephone here. 

[Log]

Ass Turd, huh huh.

[J.T.]

2 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

I did catch on, but this whole issue started because someone misinterpreted Thor referring to Axl as "Heimdall's daughter" which was never said at all in the film.

You did not find it the least bit strange that Thor and Axl were having an argument about Axl's Asgardian name?

It wasn't weird to you that Thor kept mansplaining about how Astrid was a strong and proper Asgardian name (for a girl, that is), and Axl kept insisting that Thor use his new name (which was a better reflection of his chosen gender assignment)?  That discussion is probably happening in thousands of families all over the world right now as we speak.

In the post credit scene, Jane arrives in Valhalla and Heimdall thanks her for protecting his son.  Heimdall has the gift of True Sight.  Heimdall accepts his son's gender identity because he sees to the heart of everything, and Heimdall is also a caring parent that supports his child no matter what.

Edited July 12, 2022 by J.T.

[Dolfan in NYC]

BOY... THESE MOVIES SURE ARE LONG AREN'T THEY @J.T. AND @TheVileOne??  

 

[J.T.]

Oh, come on.  @TheVileOneand I have these geek falling outs at least once every six months.   It does not mean that I don't love the guy.

There is no cause for alarm.  Our debates can be heated, but rarely are they uncivil.  The people that I cannot disagree with in a scholarly manner are on my Ignore List and @TheVileOneis not on that list.

Edited July 12, 2022 by J.T.

[TheVileOne]

Just from my cursory research on this, there are multiple trains of thoughts here and there isn't a single consensus. And due to that, I dispute the hypothesis that the dialogue exchange is definitively symbolic of a single issue. 

* Some people think the dialogue exchange is insensitive and transphobic, believing that Taika Waititi isn't sensitive to the issue of children dealing with gender identity issues. Thor's comments are an example of dead-naming.

* Some people think the issue is pro-trans because despite the childish argument, Thor does eventually accept Axl as the kid's new name.

* Some people think the issue is completely unrelated as Axl was never identified as trans anywhere. Others identified this as a child wanting to change their name after moving to a new country and going by a different name than the one of their cultural background. 

* The argument started here based on a falsehood, ie Thor calling Axl "Heimdall's daughter." Except this is false. I believe people are falsely misidentifying Axl as trans because his given "Viking" name, Astrid, yes is a feminine name. However, that also doesn't make Axl trans either. As evidence has shown, while the name has a feminine origin and history, it is used for children of any gender as well.

Once again, this is fan speculation, and people are trying to interpret the director's intention based on dialogue. And some people are interpreting this as transphobic. Some view it as pro-LGBTQ+ because Thor ultimately does accept the new name. '

Conversely, you look at say X-Men 2, Bobby Drake's scenes with his parents, yes that is like a kid coming out about his homosexuality to his parents, except being a mutant is used as the metaphor. "Have you tried not being a mutant?" exchanges "mutant" for "gay." "Have you tried not being gay?" Bryan Singer openly spoke about what that dialogue exchange and scene was meant to evoke when the movie came out. In 2005, I went to a film festival panel once with Bryan Singer and he even said the film was a giant $110 million "gay movie." Point being, there's no disputing what that dialogue exchange was symbolic of in that scene and what Singer was trying to evoke. I don't believe that's the case here. 

[J.T.]

So what you are saying is that you need it spelled out for you? 

You somehow get the mutant = gay parallel in X-Men 2 because Singer said something about it, but cannot bring yourself to accept the blatant Axl / Astrid trans joke that Taika Waititi practically dropped in your lap in Love & Thunder?  A movie literally bursting at the seams with numerous LGBTQ+ jokes like Korg and his two dads?

I cannot tell if you are being defiant, are in serious denial, or perhaps a bit of both.   

Who are you trying to convince with that frightful exposition?  Me or you?

Astrid is not a boy's name, dude.  Axl is a trans male.  It's not Murder on the Orient Express.   Solving this mystery requires few clues.  Were you offended by the Axl / Astrid joke because that would explain a lot.

I consider us to be bros so understand that I'm not trying to embarrass or make fun of you.

Edited July 12, 2022 by J.T.

[TheVileOne]

12 minutes ago, J.T. said:

So what you are saying is that you need it spelled out for you? 

You somehow get the mutant = gay parallel in X-Men 2 because Singer said something about it, but cannot bring yourself to accept the blatant Axl / Astrid trans joke that Taika Waititi practically dropped in your lap in Love & Thunder?  A movie literally bursting at the seams with numerous LGBTQ+ jokes like Korg and his two dads?

I cannot tell if you are being defiant, are in serious denial, or perhaps a bit of both.   

Who are you trying to convince with that frightful exposition?  Me or you?

Astrid is not a boy's name, dude.  Axl is a trans male.  It's not Murder on the Orient Express.   Solving this mystery requires few clues.  Were you offended by the Axl / Astrid joke because that would explain a lot.

I consider us to be bros so understand that I'm not trying to embarrass or make fun of you.

1. I was not offended by the exchange at all. My thought from the scene was just more of "Thor's a goofy meathead" that fixates on minor nonsense. He didn't want to call the kid Axl because "Astrid" is his original "viking" name that Heimdall gave him. It felt more like Taika Waititi adding in more of his love of Guns N Roses/Axl Rose into the plot. Guns N Roses was alluded to frequently throughout the film. It didn't make me angry or offended one way or the other. Thor thinks Axl's Asgardian heritage was more important than him wanting to change his name, but ultimately Thor relents because he's a meathead, but he's a respectful meathead.

2. You say this like we are bros, but I feel like you are being disrespectful and a rude jerk about this. I've taken far more offense from your posts than I did from anything in the movie, which was nothing. 

3. To me the main argument here is that people are speculating Axl's gender identity because of the Astrid name, when I think someone else here pointed out that males can be named Astrid. 

4. I did see arguments on this scene go multiple ways on social media and reddit threads, so *shrugs* 

5. Maybe I'm totally wrong and misinterpreting this here. I admit that's possible, but I still don't see this as a cut and dry argument.

[J.T.]

I'm being a rude jerk because you are being deliberately obtuse, my friend.  Where I come from, we call this "tough love." 

We've been board homies for a long time and you have a history of being very dismissive about other people's opinions unless they call you to the mat so that's what I did.  I didn't do it to be hateful.  I did it because being mean is the only way to get your attention. 

Only your bro would know that.  You forget that I have seen you in action in the MMA forum.

And it's the comics.  Nothing is cut and dry.  Fiction is something people make up as they go along.  We're not discussing factual historical events.

It's painfully obvious that the Axl / Astrid thing is a trans joke, though.  Otherwise, the tone of interaction between Axl and Thor makes absolutely no sense at all.  Axl insists on Thor referring to him Axl because "She / Astrid" is not his preferred pronoun.  It's that simple.

Edited July 12, 2022 by J.T.

[Tarheel Moneghetti]

This thread sure took a weird turn.  Glad I saw the movie before the propaganda machines revived up.  I think i’d find movie-watching exhausting if I had to scrutinize every frame to make sure it waved its flag the way I wanted.  I prefer to go to the theater to enjoy myself for two hours, then forget about the popcorn entertainment on-screen and go on with my day.

28 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

2. You say this like we are bros, but I feel like you are being disrespectful and a rude jerk about this. I've taken far more offense from your posts than I did from anything in the movie, which was nothing. 

Fwiw, I think you’re being reasonable and even-handed here, so I dunno why you even feel like you have to defend your opinion.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Tarheel Moneghetti

[Dolfan in NYC]

 

[TheVileOne]

Yes, I noticed the things with Korg and Valkyrie as well. I find Korg rather adorable and this film, and I love what Taika Waititi has done with the character. 

My thought was with Valkyrie she was rather under-developed in the film. I felt like she wanted to die in battle and be with her comrades in arms, but maybe one of them was her lover she longed to see again. I think more could've been done with that. It's set up that Valkyrie is sort of bored with the diplomatic and bureaucratic work in Asgard. We meet her in Ragnarok as this broken, drunken person who was disenchanted working for Odin and ran away from life. My thought was the wounds from her life as a warrior had not fully healed. It's a subplot that's set up and largely forgotten for the rest of the film with no real payoff.

But telling me I was clearly offended by such and such scene scene when I definitely wasn't kind of ticks me off. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by TheVileOne

[J.T.]

I apologize for angering you but like I said before, you rarely consider viewpoints that oppose your own unless someone gets your attention the hard way.

As for my assumption about you being offended goes, there were few conclusions I could draw about why you found it almost defensively necessary not to make the obvious quantum leap in judgment about why someone named Axl would insist on not being called Astrid when the logical answer is right there in front of you (ie. Axl is transitioning to male and insists on being referred to by the gender he identifies with). 

Thor is not being dumb; he is being deliberately dense.  Heimdall accepts his son's transition because he is awesome, not because he has magical eyes that can see the truth.  The magic eyes may help, but I don't think he needs them to be a kickass father..

Edited July 12, 2022 by J.T.

[(BP)]

This was one where it felt like homework having to go see it, but once I’m holding hands with my wife in an MCU movie we’re twenty again watching the first Iron Man in a theater. I’m a big softie. 

There’s stuff here I liked, enough to dilute a lot of the turnoffs. Bale’s wonderful. The leads’ individual charms and chemistry are still intact if not utilized to their full potential. There’s a very timely story at the core of this about every day people serving at the feet of elite individuals while being reminded in the harshest ways possible that there is no reward for their toiling. The problem is the movie is made by someone who gets paid handsomely to make art for a living and then goes to drug fueled polycule yacht parties, so the answer is going to be that none of that stuff really matters because Love. The status quo is great if you’re Taika and you get to live in the Golden Temple.

The tonal whiplash isn’t totally at Taika’s feet. I think the people complaining about Ragnarok’s light touch or calling the MCU movies baby shit pushed him to make  dramatic choices that are sometimes funnier than the jokes, like an oncologist earnestly saying, “Sorry Thor.” The flashback to Jane’s mom really felt like overkill, and my first thought was that they wanted to make sure people knew Jane’s Generic Movie Cancer ran in her family and wasn’t some kind of cosmic poisoning caused by doing it with Thor. 

Russel Crowe’s stinger monologue was one of my favorite things in the movie. One of the last true movie stars before franchise fever boiled our brains as a god who resents the public’s preoccupation with superheroes is perfect. Nothing against Roy Kent, but I wished the Hercules casting had reflected that in some way. Maybe reel in a big fish like Leo and then give him a jacked motion capture physique. Or get really provocative (and kind of dumb) by casting Henry Cavill.

The Guardians scenes were grim. Chris Pratt’s Hollywood ascension has reached the point where he looks miserable and the magic is gone, and the way he announces that they’re leaving the movie is graceless and lazy.

I guess if they weren’t making any more Thors this would be a fine send off. I think they should keep the fart rock Marvel Studios intro from now on though, that was great. 

 

[keith_h]

I agree with everyone who says the Guardians scenes felt off (Pratt especially). Not sure what was going on there… maybe they had to shoot everything in like a day and it was what it was but it just felt off. Just a different feel than Guardians 1-2 and Avengers Infinity War. Maybe Pratt is just done with the role…

[BrianS81177]

17 hours ago, J.T. said:

This man hates my earlier post.  Hercules was perfect. 

[J.T.]

8 hours ago, (BP) said:

The Guardians scenes were grim. Chris Pratt’s Hollywood ascension has reached the point where he looks miserable and the magic is gone, and the way he announces that they’re leaving the movie is graceless and lazy.

5 hours ago, keith_h said:

I agree with everyone who says the Guardians scenes felt off (Pratt especially). Not sure what was going on there… maybe they had to shoot everything in like a day and it was what it was but it just felt off. Just a different feel than Guardians 1-2 and Avengers Infinity War. Maybe Pratt is just done with the role…

I totally agree.  From the tone of the trailers and the ending of Endgame, I figured that the GoTG would've played a more significant role in defeating Gorr.  

I did not expect Thor's adventures with the Guardians to be summed up during a prologue and a training montage.

[AxB]

Is Guardians 3 going to be a prequel to Thor 4 now, or have they completely re-written it?

[pipGofern]

Just saw the movie and let me preface this by saying I’ve been a Waititi fan since I went to a dinky sticky indy theater to see Shadows almost ten years ago. That said, he was the wrong director for this. This movie needed to be thoughtful with the occasional bits of humor to prevent it from being a DCU slog not a 50/50 split between serious stuff and ridiculous over the top cartoonishness. I totally understand why it’s getting the feedback it’s getting. 
Portman and Bale acted their asses off in really deep meaningful performances that constantly got undercut because quick! We have to move to the next wacky set piece or goofy joke! 20 minutes more of Bale being scary as hell and 20 minutes less of Thor’s love triangle with his weapons and it would’ve been a top 10 MCU entry. As it is, I’d put it somewhere in the middle because Jane and Gor were too great even if the rest was forgettable. 

[Casey]

I still think Ragnarok was as good as it was because Waititi was only the director. This time around he wrote and directed, and allowed the cast to improvise and if he liked what was filmed and it was spur of the moment, that affected later story beats and he changed those to fit the improvisation (or that's what Natalie Portman said, anyway). If that's true and it's how Portman described, then I'm kind of shocked Feige and the Marvel braintrust allowed that to happen. I get letting creativity flow to possibly attract more directors in the future - I mean, wasn't Edgar Wright's complaint originally was that Marvel wouldn't let him make an Edgar Wright movie? I'm sure he'd be allowed now, in 2022. But letting Hemsworth and the others go off script and do their thing, and that affects things later in the movie and causes them to be changed? I don't know about all of that.

There's probably a discussion to be had about the pros and cons of a interconnected film/TV universe versus letting creative types have mostly free reign. I don't think you can have both, the creatives need to be reigned in if you want everything to be connected. And Love & Thunder kind of seems disconnected from everything that's happened so far. Eternals, Shang-Chi, Dr. Strange 2, even Black Widow had stuff that moved the larger MCU forward, even if it was a tiny bit. L&T immediately pushed the Guardians out the door within 10 minutes of the movie starting, and the only things connecting it to the MCU besides existing characters were tiny easter eggs, like there being an ice cream shop or whatever based off Thanos' gauntlet (which, by the way, that's so fucked up).

I'm no huge Star Wars fan, but I can only imagine how that fanbase is going to implode when he does his SW movie. And I'm silently hoping he doesn't even get near the live action Akira movie.

[odessasteps]

They seemingly let Raimi do a fairly Raimi movie with DR2 and it turned out okay.

[Dolfan in NYC]