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June 2022 Wrestling Discussion


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"Not including your absolute favourite" is a weird criterion. Was that to prevent having most lists be "Bryan and three other wrestlers"? If so... only partly successful.

Anyway, I am reading a book called "They Just Seem a Little Weird" which is a history of Kiss, Aerosmith, Cheap Trick, and Starz. Cheap Trick were one of my first favourite bands. Live at Budokan was the second record I bought with my own money. Then I got to see Misawa headline in the Budokan, almost 40 yeas later, and think to myself "I am in the same building where that record was recorded, watching my favourite wrestler! " which was a pretty cool feeling.

Hair rocker Sebastian Bach is quoted, on his love of Kiss: "I don’t judge them: Oh, they’ve got to top that last record. I look at it, like, This person is going to be dead one day, and I want as much art from them as they can possibly give me.”

Well... Damn straight! 

That's why MiSu and Ishii both make my list. I want as much art (and violence) from them as they can possibly give me. Them touring around and playing the hits is all I need. It's sheer delight for me. And it warms my heart, deeply, to hear crowds all over going nutzoid for these guys doing their thing. 

Eddie Kingston makes my list because he's the purest distillation of what I love most about AEW: The fact that great wrestlers who have been toiling in semi-obscurity (or being used to less than their full potential elsewhere) can be given a chance to fully shine in front of a massive international audience. Kingston has made himself into a star! That's kind of amazing. All he needed was the opportunity, but we can be forgiven for having once imagined that he would never get it.

Finally, Lulu Pencil. The pure embodiment of pro wrestling love and joy. The most uniquely charming character in pro wrestling today (which is really saying something).

A wrestling world in which Suzuki and Stone Pitbull are touring to rapturous reception, The Mad King is an international TV star, and Lulu Pencil has fans all over the world is a world I can fully enjoy living in. 

Edited by Gordlow
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1 hour ago, Gordlow said:

"Not including your absolute favourite" is a weird criterion. Was that to prevent having most lists be "Bryan and three other wrestlers"? If so... only partly successful.

 

Yeah, partially this. Less of a GOAT debate and more representatives of your taste in wrestling. Also, by excluding Favorites I mean it in a this person is my sentimental favorite because they are my favorite. Like I talk about Bryan Danielson being my guy pretty regularly, so me adding him isn’t bringing anything new to what I like. But in my descriptions of Daisuke Sekimoto (except sexy large body) a lot I can point to Bryan but in different ways. Some of the reasons I gave to Kingston could fit Hangman Page (based off of my derp post on his match with CM Punk). Etc.
 

It’s just a fun exercise in finding out what we enjoy most out of certain wrestlers and matches.

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Should I be watching Stardom right now? 

Like, is it just a consistent good match machine of a promotion, or are there some good feuds and at least one monster heel who does dope powerbombs and the occasional splash to everyone smaller than them on the roster?

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3 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Should I be watching Stardom right now? 

Like, is it just a consistent good match machine of a promotion, or are there some good feuds and at least one monster heel who does dope powerbombs and the occasional splash to everyone smaller than them on the roster?

No monster heels or truly hateful feuds so I'm not sure you would enjoy it.

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5 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Should I be watching Stardom right now? 

Like, is it just a consistent good match machine of a promotion, or are there some good feuds and at least one monster heel who does dope powerbombs and the occasional splash to everyone smaller than them on the roster?

There's not really anyone who fills that Aja Kong niche in joshi right now, which probably explains why Kong is still getting plenty of work. Yoshiko in SEAdLINNNG was kind of like that (not tall, but a little bigger & mean & more than willing to bully you) a little but she's slimmed down because it was having a negative impact on her health apparently. 

There's rivalries between factions in Stardom, like between Donna Del Mondo & God's Eye after GE split from DDM, but it's no Gokuaku Domei. It's not a promotion if you're looking for blood-filled brawls.

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8 hours ago, Octopus said:

@Kropotkin's Beard , I’m gonna hit you up soon about Jim Kasai. I was into him but haven’t watch anything recently. Just Big Japan in general! Such a special promotion. 

Always happy to answer any questions I can, or throw in some recommendations. I've really been enjoying FREEDOMS shows, something like this match between Kasai & Violento Jack from December 202q

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Here are some words on stuff I watched recently.  NOTE: I'm working my way through every WWF PPV/big event from the beginning until the nostalgic feelings wear off.  That'll probably be somewhere around Mania 9. 

Holy shit that New York portion of Mania 2 is brutal so far.

Savage vs Steele: Somebody must be ribbing Macho or maybe testing him, who the hell knows?  All I know is he got JYD on the last major show (The Wrestling Classic) where they got 9 minutes to fill with nothing at all before Savage jobbed on a countout, and now, on the next big show, he's got George Steele.  Holy fuuuuuuck.  This one only went five minutes but it felt so much longer.  Savage started with the obligatory Memphis stalling because that's what you do when you have nothing to work with.  Eventually, they settled into a weird match where there's no formula at all.  They just trade offense.  Steele does a few moves, Savage cuts him off and does a few, rinse, repeat, until the finish.  They're given some leeway with turnbuckle stuffing and a bouquet used as weapons because this match needs all the smoke and mirrors you can give it.  Eventually, it's Savage's turn on offense and he hits a slam and flying elbow and STEELE KICKS OUT.  WWTTTTTFFFFFFF.  Dude is the IC champ and will be your world champ in two years and can't beat a washed up JTTS with his finish?  I get that WWF was not a heel territory but fuuuuuuck meee.  Savage wins seconds later with the same finish he used against Putski at the aforementioned Wrestling Classic (double leg in the corner with feet on the ropes).  This was awful.

What did Savage do next?  The next two big shows are The Big Event (he's not on the card) and Mania 3, where Steele is STILL INVOLVED.  Did Savage feud with Steele on and off for a year plus?  Was this his personal hell for running an outlaw territory and exposing the business? 

I do recall, after Savage injured Steamboat, that Randy had a side feud with Bruno maybe on a few house shows.  Again, this guy was so underutilized in his early career in the fed.

Vince and Susan Saint James' interstitials are hilarious.  They're in these daytime talk show type chairs facing each other uncomfortably close just kinda chatting about the show.  Maybe this was a backdoor pilot for a McMahon celebrity interview show.  Vince!  Weekdays at 3.  Check local listings.  

Listen to Vince's weird delivery and you can see where Cena got his "Lance Catamaran" character.

George Wells vs Jake Roberts: First off, we get Susan Saint James saying "poor George" two matches in a row.  Modern Vince would not have stood for that shit and probably would have preemptively change Wells' name.   After watching George Steele, I can say Wells was not that bad.  I'd like to have seen Wells vs Savage.  Again, a weird match with no formula.  Wells beats Jake's ass for the whole match and Jake sells like  an absolute motherfucker, then cuts Wells off with a knee coming back into the ring and hits the DDT for the win.  This is early WWF proto-Jake, so neither the DDT nor Damien has a name yet.  Jake does a weird gimmick with the snake that I don't think I saw him do since: he wraps the snake around Wells' neck so it looks like the snake is strangling him, then Wells either bites an Alka Seltzer or works up a lot of drool and starts "foaming at the mouth."  Nothing match but better than the first one.

So did 80s WWF just not follow the standard match formula that much or were these exceptions because both were essentially jobber matches where the heel went over?

Up next: John Nada vs Clubber Lang!

Edited by Technico Support
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A quick word on 80s WWF booking that I'm just sort of theorizing/pulling this out of my ass...

It's really clear to me how house shows were still the money draws long into the PPV era.  I'll have to test this theory as I go through watching these early shows, but it feels like only the main matches have any story, buildup, or blowoff while the undercard is just thrown together matches and/or matches with fuck finishes because they need programs and issues to keep going for the house shows.  Like Savage/Steele was a shit finish so they could run it back for a few more months on houses with the PPV just being an advertisement/storyline advancement. 

I first noticed this a while back watching SummerSlam 88, realizing that none of the matches had storylines outside of the main and they actually seemed to go out of their way to not book matches with stories;  guys who were in programs leading up to the show were inexplicably put into matches with different people.  For example, Rude was in a program with Jake on TV, but worked JYD on Summerslam with a Jake run-in to keep the angle going, ostensibly for houses.

And of course, Saturday Night's Main Event only featured matches that were designed to build angles OR had already been finished up on the house show runs.  Like Hogan has beaten Volkoff all over the country at least twice, there's no more juice left in that orange, so put it on free tv now.

As I work through this old shit, it'll be fun to try to figure out when the focus on house shows as the main business changes.

Edited by Technico Support
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12 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Should I be watching Stardom right now? 

Like, is it just a consistent good match machine of a promotion, or are there some good feuds and at least one monster heel who does dope powerbombs and the occasional splash to everyone smaller than them on the roster?

Like @Kropotkin's Beard mentioned, joshi in general doesn't really have monster heels anymore. The closest you'll truly find monster heels is in Oz Academy, where chaos reigns aside from the occasional AKINO rana.

I personally find Stardom vastly overrated, as most of their matches are MOVEZ~! for the sake of MOVEZ~!, but for those who like that sort of thing, it's perfectly cromulent wrestling. There are some highlights (Starlight Kid has been especially good over the last year, once she turned heel and added personality to her matches), but I find when I watch their shows it's basically a bunch of folks waiting around until their next spot.

If folks enjoy it, to each their own. Give it a try to see if you like it, but it's not what I'd recommend from joshi.

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If I HAD to pick only 4.....

 

Kingston-  It starts and stops here(outside of the obvious American Dragon, because I feel that he's #1 on almost everyones list).  He's just "real", Im not sure how else to put it.  Open about his own struggles with mental health, despite seeing what kind of maniac he can be on the mic, in the ring, you almost never hear a bad word about the guy behind the scenes.  He's consistently one of, if not the best workers in AEW and his mic skills, IMO, are second to none.

Matt Cardona-  Matt Cardona is the opposite of Eddie Kingston but the same in terms of how they get me engaged in wrestling.  Cardona is a great character(which seems to be an extension of himself), absolutely hilarious and a guy who obviously took his ball and made himself outside of WWE.  Anyone watching Zach Ryder could see the dude had it and the fact that he gets to be himself on the indies is awesome.  His run after leaving WWE is probably one of my favorite things in wrestling all time.

Takeshita-  My introduction to him has been extremely recent, but holy hell do I absolutely love watching anything he does.  Put the TNT title on him, immediately.

Hangman Adam Page-  I know this one might be controversial(especially after seeing how people reacted to him after the Punk match), but I love the dude.  If you look in the best AEW matches thread, you'll find him casually in the top 10, multiple times on almost everyones list.  

 

Edited by StuntmanCrowley
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4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Here are some words on stuff I watched recently.  NOTE: I'm working my way through every WWF PPV/big event from the beginning until the nostalgic feelings wear off.  That'll probably be somewhere around Mania 9. 

Holy shit that New York portion of Mania 2 is brutal so far.

Savage vs Steele: Somebody must be ribbing Macho or maybe testing him, who the hell knows?  All I know is he got JYD on the last major show (The Wrestling Classic) where they got 9 minutes to fill with nothing at all before Savage jobbed on a countout, and now, on the next big show, he's got George Steele.  Holy fuuuuuuck.  This one only went five minutes but it felt so much longer.  Savage started with the obligatory Memphis stalling because that's what you do when you have nothing to work with.  Eventually, they settled into a weird match where there's no formula at all.  They just trade offense.  Steele does a few moves, Savage cuts him off and does a few, rinse, repeat, until the finish.  They're given some leeway with turnbuckle stuffing and a bouquet used as weapons because this match needs all the smoke and mirrors you can give it.  Eventually, it's Savage's turn on offense and he hits a slam and flying elbow and STEELE KICKS OUT.  WWTTTTTFFFFFFF.  Dude is the IC champ and will be your world champ in two years and can't beat a washed up JTTS with his finish?  I get that WWF was not a heel territory but fuuuuuuck meee.  Savage wins seconds later with the same finish he used against Putski at the aforementioned Wrestling Classic (double leg in the corner with feet on the ropes).  This was awful.

What did Savage do next?  The next two big shows are The Big Event (he's not on the card) and Mania 3, where Steele is STILL INVOLVED.  Did Savage feud with Steele on and off for a year plus?  Was this his personal hell for running an outlaw territory and exposing the business? 

I do recall, after Savage injured Steamboat, that Randy had a side feud with Bruno maybe on a few house shows.  Again, this guy was so underutilized in his early career in the fed.

The Savage-Steele feud was endless, the "blowoff match" on SNME was in May 1987 and it wasn't even a clean finish! Danny Davis hit George with the ring bell, that set-up their main event feud on C level house shows.

The Savage-Sammartino matches were mostly Bruno kicking the shit out of Macho Man, Sammartino had big time "pissed off dad" energy in those matches.

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4 minutes ago, Mister TV said:

The Savage-Steele feud was endless, the "blowoff match" on SNME was in May 1987 and it wasn't even a clean finish! Danny Davis hit George with the ring bell, that set-up their main event feud on C level house shows.

The Savage-Sammartino matches were mostly Bruno kicking the shit out of Macho Man, Sammartino had big time "pissed off dad" energy in those matches.

I mean, if your Bruno and your kid was as bad as David...

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2 hours ago, Stefanie the Human said:

Like @Kropotkin's Beard mentioned, joshi in general doesn't really have monster heels anymore. The closest you'll truly find monster heels is in Oz Academy, where chaos reigns aside from the occasional AKINO rana.

I personally find Stardom vastly overrated, as most of their matches are MOVEZ~! for the sake of MOVEZ~!, but for those who like that sort of thing, it's perfectly cromulent wrestling. There are some highlights (Starlight Kid has been especially good over the last year, once she turned heel and added personality to her matches), but I find when I watch their shows it's basically a bunch of folks waiting around until their next spot.

If folks enjoy it, to each their own. Give it a try to see if you like it, but it's not what I'd recommend from joshi.

This feels decently inaccurate as part of the reason I fell out of interest with most joshi was because this legit describes the general style of the entire scene. Stardom was one of the few promotions that seemingly tried to move away from that.

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25 minutes ago, Eivion said:

This feels decently inaccurate as part of the reason I fell out of interest with most joshi was because this legit describes the general style of the entire scene. Stardom was one of the few promotions that seemingly tried to move away from that.

I'm sorry that you disagree. To each their own.

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Vince and co are moving WWE away from the other McMahon family members influences. Vince already believes in that if someone is not doing good enough, they will be replaced or removed.

From Wrestling Inc:

“I’ve probably expected more from my family members than of other employees,” Vince told McAfee. “You have to do the right thing for the business. If this person isn’t working out, they shouldn’t be part of the company.”

Edited by Blue Dragon
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2 minutes ago, Overly Critical Man said:

Stardom is a strange Joshi fed where everyone seemingly hates or dislikes each other even within their own factions and that ain’t for me, brotha.

I love that about Stardom.  

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23 minutes ago, Overly Critical Man said:

Stardom is a strange Joshi fed where everyone seemingly hates or dislikes each other even within their own factions and that ain’t for me, brotha.

Not sure how you got that everyone hates each other as its wildly wrong, especially when talking about people within their own factions. That one happens but is generally rare.

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2 hours ago, Mister TV said:

The Savage-Steele feud was endless, the "blowoff match" on SNME was in May 1987 and it wasn't even a clean finish! Danny Davis hit George with the ring bell, that set-up their main event feud on C level house shows.

The Savage-Sammartino matches were mostly Bruno kicking the shit out of Macho Man, Sammartino had big time "pissed off dad" energy in those matches.

It's crazy!  Wikipedia says the Steele feud started on the January SNME before Mania 2.  So, on and off, the "program" lasted 16 months. 

It's wild, in my lifetime, seeing WWF/WWE go from having programs go on forever as long as they could do house show business, to needing a constant feed of angles to sell an increasing number of PPVs, to finally not really needing to do much at all because that TV money has already been made.  I mean congrats to them for turning their product from something that was hand to mouth into a business that makes money whether they are selling something compelling or not, but man it is crazy to have seen it evolve.

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32 minutes ago, DEAN said:

I love that about Stardom.  

Local area GAEA superfan Dean Rasmussen loves interfactional squabbles SHOCK!!!

/me cries at her KAORU poster

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So is Stephanie more like Kendall or Shiv here? I feel like she's Shiv not because they're both women, but because she also has a doofus scheming husband, and that parallel is too much to ignore.

Shane has Kendall's goofy nature, but he was never really in line to take over. He's like Connor, really. Never had a chance to run shit. 

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