Double or Nothing IV - 5/29/2022

[Octopus]

Posted an hour ago. Probably on a scheduled release. We’ll see if it’s deleted.

[The Natural]

Great minds think alike as the saying goes, @Octopus!

Edited May 29, 2022 by The Natural

[Jiji]

If the match is on it's going to have one of the wildest, strangest atmospheres in recent memory. I imagine if they're doing it just to get through it and get Wardlow his moment and MJF is done after, it would basically just be come in with booboo face and get powerbombed and leave. Some Goldberg vs. Brock type of reaction but with Wardlow there to channel any positive vibes... I got a feeling his big moment will be completely overshadowed by this mess even if the match happens. Gotta suck for him. 

If it's on do you hold off close to the end of the show so other matches can happen without it lingering or do you just get it over with to move on? 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Jiji

[Shartnado]

6 minutes ago, Octopus said:

MJF cool or meh isn’t entirely the full issue (which is a discussion I would LOVE to read from you all). It is also the possibility of Wardlow losing his crowning moment that is years in the making.

Yeah, THAT would be the biggest tragedy in this. I find MJF wonderful (piece of shit) at what he does. He would be an asset to any company. As big an ASSet as he thinks he is? Not quite sure about that. I'm definitely not ride or die with Wardlow, but I do understand he is very over right now and this is a culmination of a three year-long story. It would be a damned shame if it were ruined somehow! Nevertheless, I'm intrigued to see how this all will play out.

[Jiji]

Also, for those doubting MJF's ability and minimizing him to a troll or playing heel, what about that promo in the build up to to Revolution where he explained his motivation for Punk? He's hit it out of the park so often I don't understand not appreciating his ability even if he can take the internet troll shit too far and rely on it as a crutch. He's gifted. 

As for Wardlow, I wonder how long term his push goes. Without MJF to play off of he's going to have to bring it and evolve past adjusting straps and powerbombs. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Jiji

[S.K.o.S.]

Imo MJF is great both on the mic and in the ring. If this is the end of his time in AEW, it's not ideal, but their roster is so deep right now that there's no one person who could seriously hurt them in my eyes by leaving. We are very far from the tipping point where I stop seeing Dynamite as must-watch every week.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

9 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Also, for those doubting MJF's ability and minimizing him to a troll or playing heel, what about that promo in the build up to to Revolution where he explained his motivation for Punk? He's hit it out of the park so often I don't understand not appreciating his ability even if he can take the internet troll shit too far and rely on it as a crutch. He's gifted. 

As for Wardlow, I wonder how long term his push goes. Without MJF to play off of he's going to have to bring it and evolve past adjusting straps and powerbombs. 

I went back and looked up what I said about that promo, and I still feel the same way. I've pasted it below so you don't have to look for it. You'll find that my stance remains remarkably consistent.

Quote

My issue with MJF is that he was basically a Twitter troll manifested as an actual wrestler. And like... I didn't see any benefit to MJF because he was essentially copypasting 99.9% of his material from shitty tweets sent by shitty trolls. To me, that's not really an actual old-school heel, that's just lazy. It's the same reason I had a problem with Max Caster; his material wasn't original because any lameass on Twitter has already said it, and it wasn't funny or clever there either.

The reason I liked the promo last night is because it was the first time I genuinely felt the material came from him instead of some first name bunch of numbers guy. I agree that they need to be careful with how they play up things, but for the first time I'm actually interested in seeing what they're doing with MJF instead my usual apathy.

EDIT: Unfortunately... he went back to being a Twitter troll. So it goes.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Stefanie the Human
Posted too early.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

1 hour ago, Jiji said:

From what we've been told by the person with the most consistency on the situation is that the whole falling out started over an interview with Ariel Helwani that wasn't cleared. Why does an independent contractor have to clear such a thing? Fuck off. 

I'm going go out on a limb with some speculation here. We know Cody & MJF are boys. Like legit very tight. Cody's best friends in the company were QT, MJF, 10, & Starks. So to me, logically MJF's problems with AEW started with what happened with Cody. Whatever personal disagreement occurred that Cody has said he isn't going to reveal, that they couldn't get past, is the spark of MJF's discontent. I have no idea what that disagreement was. But whatever it was, MJF has most likely heard Cody's side of it. It may have changed his own view of TK. He probably sides with Cody in this situation and is annoyed that Cody was allowed to leave. So his POV completely changed when all of that went down. Then he puts over Punk (which I feel like also annoyed him). Now he's about to put over Wardlow.

Then comes that interview. I'm sure the rule is you're supposed to get permission. But I'm also sure there have been interviews that weren't approved that didn't cause any issues. Like MJF is so mad because he only got punished because TK didn't like the content of what he said. That's basically the last straw where MJF knows he doesn't want to be here anymore. And then during the media calls TK did this week he commented on the MJF stuff being story & reality woven together and MJF tweets out fuck this place.

As someone myself who has found himself in similar situations on the small time indy level and have left companies (always after doing business and putting over whoever before I left tho)... I get it. Your heart has to be in it. You have to have a relationship and trust with the promoter. If he (in your opinion) did your friend dirty, you're going to view him different. And stuff that normally didn't & shouldn't annoy you, does. I just hope dude does business before walking if that's what he's gonna do. Wardlow isn't guilty of anything here. He's the one that will suffer if MJF no shows. Not AEW as a whole, just Wardlow. It'd be like if Triple H left without putting Batista over. Could Batista ever have recovered from that? Maybe. But it's not ideal and just feels weird to even think about.

[w. josh]

I'll say this: if I had a loaded roster, was about to put my world title on CM Punk, and had a heel who sometimes gets a little too cool and smarky and has gone public with his unhappiness about a contract he's still got two years on....

I might think it was a good idea to run an angle that makes him look like a total douchebag, run a match where he gets booed mercilessly and squashed in a star-making performance for his opponent, have him disappear from television for a couple of months, then bring him back as a surprise opponent for the guy he has a history with and commence The Summer of Max. 

[Jiji]

11 minutes ago, S.K.o.S. said:

Imo MJF is great both on the mic and in the ring. If this is the end of his time in AEW, it's not ideal, but their roster is so deep right now that there's no one person who could seriously hurt them in my eyes by leaving. We are very far from the tipping point where I stop seeing Dynamite as must-watch every week.

It's not but long term he'd be the guy you could rely on for both great matches and promos. Guevara can't even handle the TNT title at this time, Jungle is improving on the mic but only to the point where they can maybe rely on him to say a few words in front of a live audience, and Darby will never be a great promo guy, though he doesn't need to be. Britt is almost a detriment at this point in my eyes. Nobody has come off looking better working programs with her, constantly shits on the division, struggles with live promos seemingly, awkward in the ring, though she's had some good matches despite that. She's got the swagger down but that's about it. Not somebody to elevate a promotion. 

Starks is maybe the one younger guy who I could see developing both in ring and on the stick into a star. Others have pretty big flaws. Guys like Garcia and HOOK are years away from main evening. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Jiji

[Matt D]

They have the luxury of time. They can use Punk for a year and Danielson for a year. There are still a ton of fresh matches. 

[Craig H]

8 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Also, for those doubting MJF's ability and minimizing him to a troll or playing heel, what about that promo in the build up to to Revolution where he explained his motivation for Punk? He's hit it out of the park so often I don't understand not appreciating his ability even if he can take the internet troll shit too far and rely on it as a crutch. He's gifted. 

As for Wardlow, I wonder how long term his push goes. Without MJF to play off of he's going to have to bring it and evolve past adjusting straps and powerbombs. 

I think that’s the point though. For every good to great promo he cuts, he cuts another Bubba Ray in ECW promo where he’s not even being a wrestling character and is just saying the lowest shit he possibly can say.

MJF is really good, but he’s also far from the most important guy in the company. And he’s wanting to get more pay now without an extension or rework of the contract, and then probably leave for WWE when his contract is up. Just let him leave for WWE now. Without his shooty promos, what is he? Is an MJF that has promos written for him by a writer and is working a program with Ezekiel the same MJF? 

I think MJF’s best comp is Jericho at the time Jericho went to WWE. Even Jericho had to eat so many plates of shit before Vince would take him seriously. For MJF’s sake, I hope he’s patient and is willing to jump through Vince’s hoops. Vince couldn’t even have to be convinced with MJF, but that’s the way it’s going to be. At least now he doesn’t have to convince TK.

[HumanChessgame]

MJF creating an ultra shooty situation to avoid a match where he finally has to take his medicine seems pretty on-brand to me. I get the notion that it's one of the more hyped matches on the show and they'd potentially be shooting themselves in the foot by cancelling it, but at the same time it's getting additional buzz. Will the match happen? If this is all legit, how will the commentators, Tony Kahn, and the rest of the staff react when the show starts? Will Wardlow be in some other match if MJF no-shows? All this is happening on the heels of Sasha and Naomi walking out and while there supposedly has been tension between MJF and AEW management this still feels like a work to me.

[Jiji]

@NoFistsJustFlips I was thinking about the Cody situation the other day and that it must've been a huge sore spot for MJF that the guy that went to bat for MJF and elevated him was dropped unceremoniously. After the fuck this company tweet and deleting it, something was gonna happen. 

I guess he and Cody can main event night 4 of a buy one get one free extravaganza and then come back in 5 years but God damn I hate this. 

The one thing AEW has is guys to carry the load for the next few years while they prep the next generation like Garcia and HOOK to get where they need to be. Still, this feels like the company is losing their obvious heir apparent and future heel ace. Even if you dislike MJF, the man has been part of the best programs and knows how to sell a match. Don't think too many in the company are capable of that, especially at his age. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Jiji

[Craig H]

Trade MJF for Sasha and Naomi?

[Craig H]

1 minute ago, Jiji said:

@NoFistsJustFlips I was thinking about the Cody situation the other day and that it must've been a huge sore spot for the guy that went to bat for MJF and elevated him. After the fuck this company tweet and deleting it...

I guess he and Cody can main event night 4 of a buy one get one free extravaganza and then come back in 5 years but God damn I hate this. 

The one thing AEW has is guys to carry the load for the next few years while they prep the next generation like Garcia and HOOK to get where they need to be. Still, this feels like the company is losing their obvious heir apparent and future heel ace. Even if you dislike MJF, the man has been part of the best programs and knows how to sell a match. Don't think too many in the company are capable of that, especially at his age. 

Calling my shot now - their best heel in waiting is Jungle Boy when the moment is right and jungle boy turns on someone and then cuts off all of his hair and starts wearing a suit to the ring for promos.

Also, ITT, everyone forgets Moxley is the real ace of the company and can be their best face or best heel and he’s only 36.

[Jiji]

Schiavone and co. calling MJF a rat over and over again always made me feel uncomfortable. I can't imagine what they'll say on commentary tonight. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Yeah MJF's great. I don't understand the people comparing him to Max Caster. If you watch an MJF match and a Max Caster match and think the levels of work are comparable... I don't know what to tell you. I mean Caster still puts his hands up taking clotheslines. That's like month one stuff in training where you learn that's a major no-no and will get your forearms broken / tear your opponents biceps. Caster is a great character but bad in the ring. MJF is a great character and very good (borderline great) in the ring.

No one can generate the heat MJF can in promos. And he almost always delivers in the ring. His Darby feud was great. His Punk feud was great. His Wardlow feud has been great. AEW would certainly survive without him. But he'd be leaving behind a hole that no single performer could fill. I mean maybe if you dedicate the same amount of time you could elevate Starks to fill that hole. His promos are great. His charisma is great. His matches are also very good. But he just doesn't have that same amount of TV equity yet.

[Jiji]

Just now, Craig H said:

Also, ITT, everyone forgets Moxley is the real ace of the company and can be their best face or best heel and he’s only 36.

Is he though? I find him lacking in the ring to be The Guy and in a company like AEW that matters. I just think back to his run as champ and I barely remember any of his matches. Great character, believable on the mic, one of the best promos, but I always found him to struggle to carry that believability over when the bell rang. Like those shit ass knees he throws. I don't know. He'd be my Undertaker type of guy that people love and can float in and out of the title scene, solidify the upper midcard and prep younger guys for big runs. 

[Krone]

Just now, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I mean maybe if you dedicate the same amount of time you could elevate Starks to fill that hole. His promos are great. His charisma is great. His matches are also very good. But he just doesn't have that same amount of TV equity yet.

Yeah but now we're replacing a Cody guy with ANOTHER Cody guy. That might not be the best case scenario at this moment in time.

[Jiji]

Starks is also 6 years older than MJF and had a serious neck injury. He's the closest comp they have skills wise but he doesn't have MJF's improv ability or presence (yet anyway). I say this loving Starks but I think his ceiling is lower than MJF's and maybe even considerably. 

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

2 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Yeah MJF's great. I don't understand the people comparing him to Max Caster. If you watch an MJF match and a Max Caster match and think the levels of work are comparable... I don't know what to tell you.

That's not... quite what I said. lol

I said if you replace MJF with Caster and gave him the same push he'd probably get just as over. I didn't compare their work (I'll definitely agree that MJF's better than Caster in-ring).

[NoFistsJustFlips]

2 minutes ago, Krone Meltzer said:

Yeah but now we're replacing a Cody guy with ANOTHER Cody guy. That might not be the best case scenario at this moment in time.

True, good point. I do feel like Starks is a lot more humble / hasn't been handed as much as MJF has tho. So he is more appreciative / hard working. Has a better head on his shoulders. Might not be as much of a risk to cause problems if put in this spot, even with his friendship to Cody. He also doesn't have Fox & USA people bugging the other company to hire him, putting crazy thoughts in his head lol.

[The Natural]

14 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Trade MJF for Sasha and Naomi?

About to say same, my friend.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

1 minute ago, Stefanie the Human said:

That's not... quite what I said. lol

I said if you replace MJF with Caster and gave him the same push he'd probably get just as over. I didn't compare their work (I'll definitely agree that MJF's better than Caster in-ring).

Apologies. The thread is moving fast and I'm mixing up some posts and the context behind them lol.

To the point of what I said tho, I disagree. Because if given the same push Caster couldn't back it up in the ring like MJF can. And I believe that to be one reason he's so over. He has these money promos that make people want to hate him. Then when it's time for him to get his ass kicked, he pulls out a great match and gets everyone to respect him all over again. He's the closest thing to peak Ric Flair that exists in the modern day environment. Even with a sustained similar push Caster isn't hitting those heights.