APRIL 2022 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Cobra Commander]

would Watts be sorta in the realm of college football head coaches who tried to do their thing in the NFL and lost their locker rooms quick?

[Dog]

2 hours ago, Technico Support said:

They want wrestlers of a certain size and age.  I’m guessing the idea that these youngsters are also naive to the wrestling business and easier to con than an experienced worker would be may also be a factor.  

It seems a lot of the "attitude" issues get overlooked in these discussions. For better or worse, a lot of (most?) indy workers now see wrestling as a calling and not just a job. Barry Darsow made any dumbshit gimmick work as long as the checks cleared. Franky Kickpads might not be so amenable. College athletes who don't give a shit about wrestling probably won't kvetch as much when you change their name to Cayenne Calamari, or whatever.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing for the people watching the show, but Vince is probably sick of hearing artistes bitch about booking decisions.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Dog

[Elsalvajeloco]

19 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

would Watts be sorta in the realm of college football head coaches who tried to do their thing in the NFL and lost their locker rooms quick?

Yeah, he's basically Urban Meyer. And not even like, "hey, at least this guy won recently."

The heyday of Mid South was when? Someone had the bright idea (maybe one of the Jims in creative) that he could contribute a full decade plus after his best years when he outside of maybe 1992 (keep in mind, only because he had to) stopped following pro wrestling altogether. It would be the equivalent of if Urban didn't even do analyst work, was just hanging at his house, and someone hired him in the year 2026 to be a NFL HC.

[A_K]

Especially when the artistes don't make him any money. By far the most consistently successful product from their prior-format NXT system was the women, who were performing basically completely without precedent and have been epoch defining in their own right.

[Cobra Commander]

12 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yeah, he's basically Urban Meyer. And not even like, "hey, at least this guy won recently."

The heyday of Mid South was when? Someone had the bright idea (maybe one of the Jims in creative) that he could contribute a full decade plus after his best years when he outside of maybe 1992 (keep in mind, only because he had to) stopped following pro wrestling altogether. It would be the equivalent of if Urban didn't even do analyst work, was just hanging at his house, and someone hired him in the year 2026 to be a NFL HC.

Watts in 92 was probably a bit like Cowboys-era Barry Switzer, but only if Jerry Jones decided to fire Switzer after his first season.

[Elsalvajeloco]

14 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

We all know that it's not his call at all given how NXT was run the previous 6 to 8 years before the shift to 2.0. Denise Salcedo interviewed Shawn Michaels before one of their first big shows after the change and he was honest about how the change came out of nowhere and he doing what he was told. With the political shift and his recent health issues, Hunter is basically the male equivalent of his wife now. He's mainly just a spokesperson and articulator of Vince McMahon and Nick Kahn's direction of the company. 

I'm not opposed to athletes with no wrestling background coming in and learning to possibly be one of the next big star. It's certainly better than scouting a bunch of bikini models but still it's a risk signing a bunch of people with no passion for it. The issue to me the ratio of inexperienced guys to the experienced guys, that's going to be an issue. Randy Orton even admitted that alot of the new call ups don't know what they are doing. That statement made me think who he could be talking about or could it be a generation gap of him being an OVW guy.

Randy and Brock (Randy moreso because his run has been uninterrupted) still being around would be like some ABA guys playing in the NBA now. A generation gap is an understatement. It would be like if the greys showed up in the workstation next to you and started hanging up their family photos. 

[odessasteps]

50 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

would Watts be sorta in the realm of college football head coaches who tried to do their thing in the NFL and lost their locker rooms quick?

Cowboy as Lou Holtz? 

[nofuture]

Sounds like his contract expired and he wasn't re-signed.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Yes, I want to see Kushida in AEW and ROH, but I also wouldn't mind him showing up in Impact to re-join Alex Shelley and Chris Sabin. 

[赤い竜]

He probably will end up wrestling in NJPW again. 

H.Suzuki went back to NOAH, KAIRI went back to Stardom.

[Eivion]

Always thought Kushida was a strange hire. As good as he is he doesn't really fit what one would think WWE was looking for. I'm curious just what he thought his prospects there were as well since it never felt like they ever would have pushed him harder than NJPW.

[DreamBroken]

17 hours ago, zendragon said:

Gertwitz is the guy was storyboarding in 2001 right? 

that was Chris Kreski, who passed away in 2005

[AxB]

If they're looking to hire former athletes, both Mick Foley and Hook played High School Lacrosse. It's clearly an untapped market of unlimited potential.

[thee Reverend Axl Future]

I have always thought that booking committees were less than useless at producing quality wrestling shows, but I don't see that there is any other way other than a modified group to write and book things now. The previous generation never trained anyone in the current one about booking. I think we need these folks working together as the bookers:

- someone with authority to bring the ideas to the workers, who has veto power, and the long-term vision who is going to be on this team for a while.

- a couple young hot shot creative guys, at least one of whom has been in the biz, who understand social media and how things are marketed nowadays.

- a vet who knows what has worked in the past (the basics), who has the ear of a rabbi of the the business who might also be getting paid but ostensibly is not "there" and is just used for advice, and angles that are so old that they are new again.

- someone w/o a wrestling background that comes from a TV production/showrunning/writing background.

The "rules" need to be established and stuck to, but not necessarily known to the public - clean finishes, no back stage cameras, feuds maintained on Twitter, whatever.... The group needs to be empowered and stable, with members rotated out periodically (except for the head person) to keep things freash. They need to be in communication with whomever is doing the hiring and training to gets new workers off and running.

A sample crew (to demonstrate the model)? How about Khan, Delirious, Jay Lethal, Dreamer (access to Foley, Funk, Heyman) and a couple NetFlix vets?

Just spitballing.

[The Natural]

Can see KUSHIDA in NJPW, AEW, IMPACT. Think he'll go back to NJPW.

[Ace]

1 hour ago, AxB said:

If they're looking to hire former athletes, both Mick Foley and Hook played High School Lacrosse. It's clearly an untapped market of unlimited potential.

Mick was also a HS wrestler on the same team as Kevin James.

[Dog]

If only they'd started the NIL program 40 years ago. Paul Blart would be a 7-time world champion.

[PetrolCB]

47 minutes ago, Dog said:

If only they'd started the NIL program 40 years ago. Paul Blart would be a 7-time world champion.

That's a total WWE name. But it would be just "Blart", and they'd give it to a goofball fat guy, like Otis.

[Go2Sleep]

6 hours ago, A_K said:

Well, it proves that the tried-and-tested formula for the mega draws over past 2 and some decades (emphasis on mega draws, of whom there have been very very few) has been to recruit from athletic background at v young age direct into WWF/E farm system. E.g Brock, Rock, Cena, Goldberg (for WCW), Roman. Which is .. the path they seem to want to return to, which they strayed from (probably since OVW declined if being honest?).
 

Again I think this just correlation rather than causation, and the claim that all the mega-draws were because of their athletic background and not their dedication to pro-wrestling is more than a bit questionable. Strictly looking at the more modern guys who drew in the post Bret/Shawn athletic revolution in WWE:

Austin - Lifelong fan whose #1 goal was to be a pro wrestler. Football was incidental. Was in the business for nearly a decade before becoming a major draw.

Rock - Fits the description, but leaves out the key detail that he wouldn't have gotten a look from WWE without his family's wrestling connections, to Vince in particular.

Taker - Sought wrestling on his own, wasn't recruited because of his basketball career. Like Austin, was in the business for many years before he could be considered a draw.

HHH - Lifelong fan, not much athletic background outside body-building. Also in the business for a long time before he was stand-alone draw.

Cena - Was already a trained wrestler before going to OVW.

Roman - "Mega draw" is a reach for him to begin with, but like The Rock, it was the family connections that got him the look and undoubtedly gave him a leg up on how to succeed in wrestling (this may very well apply to Bron one day too), not his dime-a-dozen football career.

Then you have guys like Brock and Angle who had very good careers, but aren't mega draws, save for maybe Brock's first few appearances back from UFC. Plenty of "wrestling is my blood" types have had comparable drawing power (for example: Rey, Eddie, Jericho).

Edited April 19, 2022 by Go2Sleep

[A_K]

2 hours ago, Go2Sleep said:

Again I think this just correlation rather than causation, and the claim that all the mega-draws were because of their athletic background and not their dedication to pro-wrestling is more than a bit questionable. Strictly looking at the more modern guys who drew in the post Bret/Shawn athletic revolution in WWE:

Austin - Lifelong fan whose #1 goal was to be a pro wrestler. Football was incidental. Was in the business for nearly a decade before becoming a major draw.

Rock - Fits the description, but leaves out the key detail that he wouldn't have gotten a look from WWE without his family's wrestling connections, to Vince in particular.

Taker - Sought wrestling on his own, wasn't recruited because of his basketball career. Like Austin, was in the business for many years before he could be considered a draw.

HHH - Lifelong fan, not much athletic background outside body-building. Also in the business for a long time before he was stand-alone draw.

Cena - Was already a trained wrestler before going to OVW.

Roman - "Mega draw" is a reach for him to begin with, but like The Rock, it was the family connections that got him the look and undoubtedly gave him a leg up on how to succeed in wrestling (this may very well apply to Bron one day too), not his dime-a-dozen football career.

Then you have guys like Brock and Angle who had very good careers, but aren't mega draws, save for maybe Brock's first few appearances back from UFC. Plenty of "wrestling is my blood" types have had comparable drawing power (for example: Rey, Eddie, Jericho).

 

You think Chris Jericho & Rey Mysterio have had comparable drawing power to Brock Lesnar, that Roman isn’t a mega draw & that its “correlation rather than causation” that the biggest face-of-the-industry draws of the past 25 years produced by their system are stud-athletic types of a certain build & stature? Ok - probs worth stopping conversation there, I don't think there's room for agreement.

Edited April 19, 2022 by A_K

[zendragon]

6 hours ago, Eivion said:

Always thought Kushida was a strange hire. As good as he is he doesn't really fit what one would think WWE was looking for. I'm curious just what he thought his prospects there were as well since it never felt like they ever would have pushed him harder than NJPW.

I would imagine he filled the role of "asian foreigner"  thats always been a trope and vince has always used

[Eivion]

1 hour ago, zendragon said:

I would imagine he filled the role of "asian foreigner"  thats always been a trope and vince has always used

The role they already have Jiro, Io, Sarray, Tozawa, Nakamura, & Asuka in?

[Log]

3 hours ago, A_K said:

 

You think Chris Jericho & Rey Mysterio have had comparable drawing power to Brock Lesnar, that Roman isn’t a mega draw & that its “correlation rather than causation” that the biggest face-of-the-industry draws of the past 25 years produced by their system are stud-athletic types of a certain build & stature? Ok - probs worth stopping conversation there, I don't think there's room for agreement.

Has Brock drawn in wrestling? I know he was a very legit draw for UFC, but do numbers show that he drew for Vince?

Roman’s not a draw, let alone a “mega draw”. WWE is the draw. It has been for a long time.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Log
Typo

[Matt D]

I think Brock/Rousey helped with the Fox deal more so than anyone else.

I imagine Jericho and JR helped with AEW's first TV deal as much as anyone.

Who knows who or what a draw is anymore?

[Technico Support]

WWE out here acting like the top-promoted match on their biggest show of 2022 wasn't highlighted by a guy who was THE indy standout not incredibly long ago and still wrestles in a T-shirt, while his best friend and another no talent indy geek got to carry the ball in a well-received celebrity match.  But yes, let's switch to hiring the 3rd string middle llinebacker from Towson State because he's got the kind of shoulders that make Vince hard. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Technico Support