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APRIL 2022 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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8 hours ago, Shartnado said:

Vince Vance McGarnigle tried saying Kacy Catanzaro whilst stroking out and whatever came out of his mouth resembled Katana Chance

FTFY

EDIT: Two months later he will take out the Chance and give her a sword. 

Edited by Curt McGirt
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I am assuming that WB/Discovery finally sells off their game studios. They've been back-and-forth on trying to exploit the IP they own in video games (and the video game ones, like Mortal Kombat, in other media) and haven't been convincing about it, entirely.

Watch MK become Xbox/PC only after Microsoft buys Netherrealm. 

Also, yeah, I'm sure this will affect pro wrestling somehow, yeah, that's it, I'm on topic!

Edited by SirSmellingtonofCascadia
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On 4/16/2022 at 6:03 AM, ReiseReise said:

 

Now for the question of who actually IS out there, that's very legitimate. The only person coming to my mind that - at one point - had a good rep and from what I know is still alive & not done with wrestling, and could be available is Hunter Johnston (Delirious), was he still with ROH when Kahn picked them up? 

So, this kind of proves my original point. And you’re not even wrong to point out that Delirious is one of the handful of experienced bookers in this country not tied up with WWE. But this is the same guy that booked ROH business into the ground to the point that the company got shuttered. Does Tony Khan have to run a company out of business to get credit as a competent booker? Perhaps if he costs enough people their livelihoods he too could get a successful podcast where he can critique people running successful companies.
 

Who has experience booking in this country? Heyman is tied up with WWE and we all know the good and bad with him. Tommy Dreamer? Legendarily awful OVW run. Don Callis/Scott D’amore kinda turned around Impact creatively but never got business going. Jeff Jarrett? Smart guy but again we saw the decade of failure Impact had. All time terrible creative even if it’s mainly Russo. Cornette? Old, out of touch and ya know everything else he is. Gabe? ROH and Evolve weren’t really heavy storyline promotions and what storylines they were the performers had wide latitude. 

But on the larger scale, this is the issue that’s gonna plague WWE very soon. Vince is very old. Bruce Prichard is old and has health issues. HHH won’t be healthy enough to run creative. Without a lead decision-maker you end up with some corporate guy at the top (Nick Khan) and a booking committee of lackeys and welcome to 1990 WCW, y’all.

I think people have just lost the plot on evaluating booking. This country has a terrible record with any company being consistently good. We may as well start defending 2000s NJPW decision under Inoki because it’s about as logical as a lot of the discourse is these days.

Now it’s inevitable that Tony Khan won’t be able to micro-manage AEW booking forever as the company grows so you always need creative people around you but he’s literally the youngest person with any track record of success in this country right now.

Edited by Hagan
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They bring someone from outside the industry in. The concept that only someone who has been an actor in this television show can direct the television show is .. well .. different. Cinema franchise refreshes demonstrate the importance of outside perspectives. For all their subsequent faults, Bischoff + Russo's respective commercial success at WCW/WWF came on the back of one having started in corporate sales, and the other having owned a video store & as freelance writer (or whatever the fk it was that Russo did). Networks being networks, at some point there will likely be pressure to bring outside voices in.

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some of the AEW people who would make interesting bookers are already busy with being in AEW TV positions. Meaning someone like Daniel Bryan or Regal probably doesn't want to do it right now. CM Punk would probably make for a lousy booker purely due to the whole pressure/ego management side of things.

Mark Henry booking a promotion would be an experiment. He's a fan, he's been around it, but... ROH right now is sorta like booking the JCP-era UWF or 2001 Invasion WCW. Some of the juice kinda goes out of the thing because it's subordinate to AEW.

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WWE spent decades hiring writers without wrestling experience (to the point that being a wrestling fan was grounds to be fired) and their creative has been…rather uneven. Bischoff had been in the wrestling business for years before getting the WCW top job and even then only has two years of success followed by cataclysmic failure in decades of given shot after shot. He had a great eye for what talent to bring in and adapted the UWFi invasion effectively but WCW creative was always leaky.

Russo is an interesting example and, for sure, had an interesting vision but history quickly proved that without Vince McMahon (in pro wrestling for decades) he pronounced incomprehensible garbage. Even then, he had grown up a fan. Bringing it just a random Hollywood showrunner to run your wrestling program probably a bad idea unless it’s someone like Brian Gertwitz.

As far as guys in AEW who you figure have good minds for wrestling, sure. You figure the Jacksons and Omega and Cody were/are in those spots to learn and dudes SHOULD be trying to learn how to book in the way that Heyman learned from Eddie Gilbert or Ross and Prichard learned from Watts. Wrestling needs more young minds that know how to book because these are billion dollar properties who are gonna need smart people around for decades.

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6 hours ago, Hagan said:

 

Russo is an interesting example and, for sure, had an interesting vision but history quickly proved that without Vince McMahon (in pro wrestling for decades) he pronounced incomprehensible garbage. Even then, he had grown up a fan. Bringing it just a random Hollywood showrunner to run your wrestling program probably a bad idea unless it’s someone like Brian Gertwitz.

 

Gertwitz is the guy was storyboarding in 2001 right? I think a Hollywood type could work if its someone who grew up a wrestling fan (like the guys who wrote Lucha Underground). Lance Storm and Raven wrote a lot of their ECW stuff. And Lance seems to have a sound logical understanding of how wrestling should work based on his commentaries. 

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11 hours ago, Hagan said:

Does Tony Khan have to run a company out of business to get credit as a competent booker? Perhaps if he costs enough people their livelihoods he too could get a successful podcast where he can critique people running successful companies.

Being a contemporary booker is never going to allow for somebody to be viewed in a positive light.  To say you're a fan of Tony Khan as a booker in 2022 indicates to many of the loudest critics that you're a blind following mark.  (And worse, he's really rich!)  Criticisms of stuff like the Singh debut or sensitivity to something he said in an interview will always exceed online the excellent booking (eg. building of Wheeler Yuta) or any number of strong choices he makes weekly.  Certainly he's prone to mistakes as much as any, but it's hard not to applaud the simple and effective foundational choices like - consistent clean finishes, traditional style promos (as opposed to magic camera skits), no authority characters and matches where even the loser gets an opportunity to shine (outside of enhancement matches) etc etc.  Seemingly easy choices, but monumental in the world of pro wrestling with it's never-ending insanely bad creative.  Also, merely giving a shit about how the audience is receiving the product (clearly, not common in the oughts).  I keep seeing names of wrestlers who are really good in the ring as ppl who 'should' get the book.  I don't see automatic corelation with being good in ring as also being a good booker.  I mean, no doubt those guys could be valuable in some capacity to some potential head booker, but anybody strictly hiring from the bubble is making a huge mistake.  At least, from the many examples of names you've nicely outlined, which are most if not all of the ppl who have had more than enough of a shot.  Khan to me is a shining reason for finding somebody outside the bubble (hire @DEANfor fuck sake) who has at least a little understanding of modern culture and a huge passion for this business.  I like the Bill Watts' UWF/MId-South era model of a competent leader overseeing an ever-changing run of worthy bookers.  If Tony can set himself up with trusted minds surrounding (which he seems to be doing very well), this AEW may have some legs yet.  

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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10 hours ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

Give Dustin the book and provide him a support staff including Eddie Kingston and Joe.

Dustin was my immediate thought. He's been around a long time, worked in all the major companies, knows what works and what doesn't, and if someone starts to complain about an angle he can just say "listen, youngblood, I got Goldust over".

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Cobra Kai proves there's "Hollywood" types out there that know pro wrestling booking, the issue is someone coming in from the outside has to deal with micro-managing owners, pro wrestler ego's, carny's dong carny shit and so on, that's either going to drive them away or basically neuter anything truly creative they want to do.

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2 hours ago, Mister TV said:

Cobra Kai proves there's "Hollywood" types out there that know pro wrestling booking, the issue is someone coming in from the outside has to deal with micro-managing owners, pro wrestler ego's, carny's dong carny shit and so on, that's either going to drive them away or basically neuter anything truly creative they want to do.

Curious how the writing on Cobra Kai compares to good wrestling booking?  I only caught the first 2 episodes of the series.  

3 hours ago, JLowe said:

Dustin was my immediate thought. He's been around a long time, worked in all the major companies, knows what works and what doesn't, and if someone starts to complain about an angle he can just say "listen, youngblood, I got Goldust over".

Also, curious on these wrestler names being nominated?  I'm not suggesting Dustin has no business in said role, but I don't quite see his career arc as something to indicate he's on top of what would work and not work.  I also don't quite see any of the names listed as being truly on top of the times and where the audience Is or Is going.  Wrestlers/Old Bookers so often hang onto the past and what used to work.  Sometimes what used to work still does, there's certainly something to be said for solid fundamentals, but it always needs a contemporary alteration.  Even in the slightest way.  Without it - it's Jim Cornette booking ROH or Watts in WCW.  I'm sure it would be beneficial for any creative lead to have guys around like Dutch Mantell, Kevin Sullivan, (maybe not) Jim Cornette, or how about Bill Dundee.  But those aren't the guys that are going to understand how to present it from the page to the screen. The answer is also not a writer looking for any sort of good paying job.

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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16 hours ago, Hagan said:

WWE spent decades hiring writers without wrestling experience (to the point that being a wrestling fan was grounds to be fired) and their creative has been…rather uneven.

Sure, but it's not clear how much of the credit for the unevenness should be attributed to those writers when the entire process is filtered through the head honcho. There may be a better context and setting through which outside-the-industry writers could put together a good wrestling product. 

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