APRIL 2022 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[The Natural]

 

Worth watching as Randy Orton celebrates his 20 years in WWE.

Edited April 25, 2022 by The Natural

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

On 4/22/2022 at 6:52 AM, Blue Dragon said:

DDP's story about Triple H's Cutter

https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2022/04/ddp-called-wwe-star-to-ask-them-to-stop-doing-the-cutter-as-a-finisher/

Quote

1. Johnny B. Badd (Marc Mero) won the WCW TV title from Diamond Dallas Page (Page Falkenberg) in 17:01. Badd's ribs weren't 100% so he didn't do nearly as much as usual, although he did throw in a somersault plancha toward the finish and didn't do anything that would make anyone notice he was hurt. Page did a great job early bouncing around like Terry Funk outside the ring including getting punched with a bucket over his head. They teased an eventual break-up angle with Page and Diamond Doll throughout the match. Page used Hunter Hearst Helmsley's Pedigree move, called the Pancake here. Page controlled and carried most of the match. It dragged a little but turned into a good match with lots of nice near falls at the end. Finish saw Max Muscle clothesline Page when Badd ducked, and Badd got the pin. ***

 

[DreamBroken]

11 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

1. Johnny B. Badd (Marc Mero) won the WCW TV title from Diamond Dallas Page (Page Falkenberg) in 17:01. Badd's ribs weren't 100% so he didn't do nearly as much as usual, although he did throw in a somersault plancha toward the finish and didn't do anything that would make anyone notice he was hurt. Page did a great job early bouncing around like Terry Funk outside the ring including getting punched with a bucket over his head. They teased an eventual break-up angle with Page and Diamond Doll throughout the match. Page used Hunter Hearst Helmsley's Pedigree move, called the Pancake here. Page controlled and carried most of the match. It dragged a little but turned into a good match with lots of nice near falls at the end. Finish saw Max Muscle clothesline Page when Badd ducked, and Badd got the pin. ***

That was more like the Styles Clash without the stepping over the arms. Piledriver lift and dropping forward, no hooking the arms like the Pedigree but I could see the similarity. It would remain one of DDP's signatures in video games.

[sabremike]

4 hours ago, Ziggy said:

As a kid I felt that way about Shawn. I thought he was more exciting than Bret. Ironically I didn't really appreciate Bret until a few months before Montreal. And little did I know he was leaving and wasn't even smart to the screwjob finish till Vince explained it on TV. The older I got and the smarter I got to the business,  the more and more I realized how much better Bret was than Shawn Michaels. I still like Shawn and I think he is great in the WWE lexicon. Another thing about Shawn that hurt him for me is the Melodramatic stuff he brought to this modern WWE & NXT. It was cute in the Flair match an his Retirement match but everything else like the matches he refereed between Hunter and Taker and all those NXT TakeOver main events that he or Hunter agented was too much to the point I feeling him less and  less. Bret Hart worked for the match. Yeah he wanted to look good even in a loosing effort but Shawn seemed like he wanted to look good even at your expense. Look at the Hogan match, it was really good and even funny but it's just an example of him overexagerating to make a point. I'd like to hear Brets thoughts on that match today especially since he doesn't hate Shawn and he's not too crazy about Hulk.

The Hogan match was one of numerous examples of just how completely unprofessional Shawn could be. Remember the IYH debacle where he stunk out the joint with Davey Boy because he was throwing a tantrum angry over being heckled or when he threw an in ring tantrum at Vader over a missed spot at SS 96 and likely put the mouth on him to Vince leading to Sid getting the main event at Survivor Series and brief title run instead of Vader? And the gazillion times he managed to not drop a title in the ring (Jesus Christ remember how Davey dedicated a match in Manchester for a title to his dying sister and Shawn had the finish changed?).

[The Natural]

2 hours ago, sabremike said:

The Hogan match was one of numerous examples of just how completely unprofessional Shawn could be. Remember the IYH debacle where he stunk out the joint with Davey Boy because he was throwing a tantrum angry over being heckled or when he threw an in ring tantrum at Vader over a missed spot at SS 96 and likely put the mouth on him to Vince leading to Sid getting the main event at Survivor Series and brief title run instead of Vader? And the gazillion times he managed to not drop a title in the ring (Jesus Christ remember how Davey dedicated a match in Manchester for a title to his dying sister and Shawn had the finish changed?).

All bad but especially the bolded. Really pissed me off that one.

[Technico Support]

On 4/24/2022 at 3:00 PM, J.H. said:

"Great Value" Tommy Dreamer is a concept that fascinates me since Tommy was already "Dollar Tree" Shoji Nakamaki and Nakamaki was already like getting Onita off Wish

James

LOOOOOL okay then, he's Goodwill Onita after Onita was purchased from Dollar Tree, donated to the Salvation Army, bought from there, then re-donated to Goodwill.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Technico Support

[Marcel]

On 4/23/2022 at 10:06 PM, The Great ML said:

Buddy Roberts as a single.

Co-sign.  Buddy Jack Roberts was a great UWF TV Champion.  

[JohnnyJ]

18 hours ago, A_K said:

Hart had the pretty underwhelming distinction of being WWF face when it clearly played second fiddle promotion, then basically not moving the needle in any way shape or form when he moved to WCW, and being an underwhelming-part of an underwhelming-promotion that slid to second fiddle within a few months of him being there. The “Michaels/Hart” competition is always a bit odd, in the sense it’s akin to debating who of a host of second-fiddle NBA HOFers were superior to each other. Neither were ever really the man - not really for any prolonged period of time anyway.

If anything, people understate the importance of Bret/Shawn. It's more than just numbers. Over a short period of time, WWF loses three of its top stars in Hogan, Warrior, and Savage. And we all know how WWE books its top stars. No one else was presented on their level.  Luger flops and WWF is running their promotion around two former tag guys (Bret/Shawn) and two WCW misfits (Hall/Nash). The crazy thing is that it worked at all.

Bret/Shawn are the bridge between Hogan and Austin. If they didn't keep the lights on there is a decent chance there's no more national wrestling. 

[(BP)]

“The Velvet Underground didn’t sell many records, but everyone who bought one started a band.”

[A_K]

53 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

If anything, people understate the importance of Bret/Shawn. It's more than just numbers. Over a short period of time, WWF loses three of its top stars in Hogan, Warrior, and Savage. And we all know how WWE books its top stars. No one else was presented on their level.  Luger flops and WWF is running their promotion around two former tag guys (Bret/Shawn) and two WCW misfits (Hall/Nash). The crazy thing is that it worked at all.

Bret/Shawn are the bridge between Hogan and Austin. If they didn't keep the lights on there is a decent chance there's no more national wrestling. 

That's an interesting take, but .. Hogan/Savage were gone by, what, '94? To the 'rival' promotion, no less - so hardly squarely leaving the industry. Despite this, Raw would still numerically beat Nitro more often than not throughout the '95 // 1H '96 period. Its not like Shawn/Bret 'grew into' the role as the Fed leaders .. if anything WWF was OK for the initial period that Hogan/Savage left, but once Shawn/Hart were front and centre that's when it began to really fade badly against resurgent Hogan (WCW'd be pulling 2x numbers w/ '97 Hogan vs. the 95 led version). The Bret/Shawn era of '96-'97 was really the Fed on its last legs .. and it took Austin's ascendancy to save it at the same time Hart shuffled on over to WCW where he was pretty ineffectual as a star. Vince probably thanks his lucky stars for the Screwjob really .. they've had such enormous amounts of narrative mileage out of it over the decades & it precipitated an almost immediate boon in business as over stars took center stage.

Edited April 25, 2022 by A_K

[sabremike]

1 hour ago, A_K said:

That's an interesting take, but .. Hogan/Savage were gone by, what, '94? To the 'rival' promotion, no less - so hardly squarely leaving the industry. Despite this, Raw would still numerically beat Nitro more often than not throughout the '95 // 1H '96 period. Its not like Shawn/Bret 'grew into' the role as the Fed leaders .. if anything WWF was OK for the initial period that Hogan/Savage left, but once Shawn/Hart were front and centre that's when it began to really fade badly against resurgent Hogan (WCW'd be pulling 2x numbers w/ '97 Hogan vs. the 95 led version). The Bret/Shawn era of '96-'97 was really the Fed on its last legs .. and it took Austin's ascendancy to save it at the same time Hart shuffled on over to WCW where he was pretty ineffectual as a star. Vince probably thanks his lucky stars for the Screwjob really .. they've had such enormous amounts of narrative mileage out of it over the decades & it precipitated an almost immediate boon in business as over stars took center stage.

The feud with Bret and that legendary match at Mania are what made Austin. He was "ineffectual as a star" in WCW because he was deliberately sabotaged by the fools who eventually ran the company out of business. Remember how he headlined a PPV vs Flair that did a shockingly high buyrate and the company responded by doing nothing with him? Or when they decided to turn him heel shortly after he came back after his brother had been killed because they somehow thought people would want to boo a guy who had just lost a family member in the most horrific circumstance possible?

[Guest]

Eddie Guerrero is the lowest drawing WWE World Champion of all time. Kofi didn't do so good either. Doesn't matter anyways, when your company can take the business hits sometimes and survives and is the only real big game, you can focus on whatever you want. 

[Sammo~!]

13 minutes ago, KingM said:

Eddie Guerrero is the lowest drawing WWE World Champion of all time.

Did Jinder Mahal outdraw Eddie? That's wild. 

[SirSmUgly]

Being a viable second-tier main eventer, much like being a second-fiddle NBA HoF'er, still means that you are among the best of the best to ever do it. People debate about those folks all the time.

Bret and Shawn will always have an outsized importance to me because I was a very young kid when I became fans of them and I grew up with their careers, but they are also worth talking about even if they're not Hogan or Austin. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Sammo~! said:

Did Jinder Mahal outdraw Eddie? That's wild. 

Everybody did. 

Surprisingly Jake Swagger or whatever his name was did good as a draw.

[odessasteps]

14 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Being a viable second-tier main eventer, much like being a second-fiddle NBA HoF'er, still means that you are among the best of the best to ever do it. People debate about those folks all the time.

Bret and Shawn will always have an outsized importance to me because I was a very young kid when I became fans of them and I grew up with their careers, but they are also worth talking about even if they're not Hogan or Austin. 

As they about real sports, even the worst bench player is one of the best players in the world. 

[JohnnyJ]

3 hours ago, A_K said:

... if anything WWF was OK for the initial period that Hogan/Savage left, but once Shawn/Hart were front and centre that's when it began to really fade badly against resurgent Hogan (WCW'd be pulling 2x numbers w/ '97 Hogan vs. the 95 led version). The Bret/Shawn era of '96-'97 was really the Fed on its last legs .. and it took Austin's ascendancy to save it at the same time Hart shuffled on over to WCW where he was pretty ineffectual as a star. 

The fade was caused by WCW poaching two main eventers and catching lightning in a bottle with the NWO. I don't know how you can blame Shawn/Bret for that. 

[SirSmUgly]

8 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

The fade was caused by WCW poaching two main eventers and catching lightning in a bottle with the NWO. I don't know how you can blame Shawn/Bret for that. 

In fact, one of the main eventers WCW poached was a nothing draw on top for WWF just a year earlier. Put Bret or Shawn in his spot in the nWo, and there isn't the same dismissiveness about their ability to draw. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by SirSmellingtonofCascadia

[A_K]

28 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

The fade was caused by WCW poaching two main eventers and catching lightning in a bottle with the NWO. I don't know how you can blame Shawn/Bret for that. 

Oh - you can’t. But neither of them were part of the antidote, either (one of them actively wasn’t).

[SirSmUgly]

23 minutes ago, A_K said:

Oh - you can’t. But neither of them were part of the antidote, either (one of them actively wasn’t).

Bret's feud with Austin, as @sabremikenoted, absolutely was part of the antidote. In the short term, RAW did way more high-twos than low-twos in the ratings. Generally look at where ratings were in early 1996 and then especially mid-1996 (after the nWo was formed) compared to mid/late-1997, and there's stabilization that you have to attribute at least in part to Bret.

He also helped to make Austin and Vince McMahon massively (even if he didn't do it for the latter in the way that he might have expected), and those two along with The Rock basically turned business all the way around in 1998 and 1999. 

As for Bret's WCW run, having read @Gorman's awesome PPV reports in the WWE Network Conversation thread and having recently watched some shows from around that time because of them, you can retrospectively see WCW starting to cool off at the tail end of 1997 and, outside of the rise of Goldberg in 1998 (which was then booked into the ground as soon as he became the world champ), WCW's quality and booking declines rapidly once '98 hits, as soon as Bret arrived, and Bret was not particularly protected, either.

Edited April 25, 2022 by SirSmellingtonofCascadia

[A_K]

52 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Bret's feud with Austin, as @sabremikenoted, absolutely was part of the antidote. In the short term, RAW did way more high-twos than low-twos in the ratings. Generally look at where ratings were in early 1996 and then especially mid-1996 (after the nWo was formed) compared to mid/late-1997, and there's stabilization that you have to attribute at least in part to Bret.

He also helped to make Austin and Vince McMahon massively (even if he didn't do it for the latter in the way that he might have expected), and those two along with The Rock basically turned business all the way around in 1998 and 1999. 

As for Bret's WCW run, having read @Gorman's awesome PPV reports in the WWE Network Conversation thread and having recently watched some shows from around that time because of them, you can retrospectively see WCW starting to cool off at the tail end of 1997 and, outside of the rise of Goldberg in 1998 (which was then booked into the ground as soon as he became the world champ), WCW's quality and booking declines rapidly once '98 hits, as soon as Bret arrived, and Bret was not particularly protected, either.

Well what I would say is that Hart left, when, November' 97? They did their highest number in several years the night after (makes sense - big story point). In the 2 years immediately thereafter, I believe they recorded only 1 show with a lower rating than the prior 2 years before he moved off. Given this was still some time before the Austin coming-out party at WM w/ Tyson, that's pretty remarkable. There was absolutely no drop off - nothing, on any show, whatsoever. The SS '96 bout w/ Austin (heralded as, critically, one of the greats) basically had ratings identical to the months preceding, topped out in the mid-2's, and they'd be back in the 1s again by December / January '96. Objectively, there's nothing there that says Bret/Austin made the Stone Cold momentum .. if everyone is being honest with themselves, they'll admit it was the McMahon/Austin narrative really. Conversely, WCW had a 10% or so pop after Starrcade '97 but that'd flag pretty quickly, and come the winter they'd never really mount the heights they'd set back in autumn '97. Honestly, the Canadian element probably held Hart back from being a face-of-the-promotion lead in the US in the atmosphere of the 90s vs a full blooded Texan.

Its a pretty interesting conversation, because it seems that the more time passes, the more prevalent the impact BH/SM are perceived to have (I don't remember any of these tributes to impact back in the early-mid-2000s when Hart was out of the industry and Michaels would periodically pop up as a novelty GM or guest referee character prior to his comeback tour). But objectively speaking? Yeah, never really led the pack commercially.

Edited April 25, 2022 by A_K

[SirSmUgly]

18 minutes ago, A_K said:

Objectively, there's nothing there that says Bret/Austin made the Stone Cold momentum .. if everyone is being honest with themselves, they'll admit it was the McMahon/Austin narrative really. 

Objectively, there absolutely is, in that McMahon/Austin was propelled by all the work that Bret did to help put both of those characters in position to capitalize on a feud between them. 

I think that, generally, the people who are talking about the impact that either man had on the business is not talking about drawing or ratings. They're talking about style and tropes that all the millennials who got into wrestling because they were fans growing up latched onto. This is especially true of Shawn, who actually got to implement his "play to the back of the room" ideas onto NXT in a leadership position. 

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Bret or Shawn were secretly somehow bigger draws than they were. Maybe we're talking at cross-purposes a bit. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

2 hours ago, KingM said:

Eddie Guerrero is the lowest drawing WWE World Champion of all time. Kofi didn't do so good either. Doesn't matter anyways, when your company can take the business hits sometimes and survives and is the only real big game, you can focus on whatever you want. 

2 hours ago, KingM said:

Everybody did. 

Surprisingly Jake Swagger or whatever his name was did good as a draw.

2005 Smackdown was drawing less than 1995 WWE? 2005 Smackdown was drawing less than 2010 Smackdown with Swagger or 2018 with Jinder? I need proof. Where are the sources your using for this? It could be true but I gotta see that for myself. WWE as a brand was still hot enough in 2005 that I would assume even the B brand was drawing better than almost out of business 1995 WWE.

[Guest]

Not my job to spoonfeed you when several other websites reported it, it's your job to know it and you are living in the search your own info age. You also need to really tone down your gimmick, I find it extremely rude.

Here bunch of the many links just for you though  https://www.thesportster.com/news/lowest-drawing-wwe-champion-ever/#:~:text=An extensive study into live,drawing champions of all time.

https://www.therichest.com/wrestling/the-15-wwe-champions-you-didnt-know-drew-low-ratings/

https://www.pwmania.com/forbes-picks-up-story-about-worst-drawing-wwe-champions

Low in most of the metrics combined.

[Infinit]

11 minutes ago, KingM said:

Not my job to spoonfeed you when several other websites reported it, it's your job to know it and you are living in the search your own info age. You also need to really tone down your gimmick, I find it extremely rude.

Pretty sure it's no one's "job" here to know what the ratings were from 12, 17 or 27 years ago. If anything, if someone makes a claim, it's on them to support those claim with facts.

And with all due respect, @NoFistsJustFlipswasn't being rude. Settle down lol.