March 2022 Wrestling Discussion

[NoFistsJustFlips]

47 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I get it, people like RVD waayyy more than Triple H but one was a professional who took especially the business side of wrestling very seriously and the other was just happy to be there and the money afforded him to do other things he'd rather do. I will not fault a man who worked harder at his craft. 

Most here aren't going to agree because again they are clouded by a short period of time on the RAW brand where a couple of their favorites didn't win when they "should have" and will throw out the rest of Hunter's career because of it.

This is a bad take. I wrote like 3,000 words putting over how much I enjoyed Triple H's career, so I am from someone clouded by that Raw run. And I very much disagree with you here. It's not about liking or not liking someone, it's about hypocrisy. You mean the guy whose whole character was "he's a pothead, lol" was a pothead and the company acted shocked? That's some hardcore corporate pearl clutching. If you're gonna make money off of a man's personality, don't act shocked and outraged when that very personality is put on display publicly.

Triple H worked hard as fuck. He lived wrestling and breathed wrestling. Still does. RVD has also dedicated his life to wrestling and worked just as hard, just in different ways. It's not fair to act like RVD didn't do hours of yoga and flexibility workouts just because he doesn't have a bodyguy look. He was most certainly a gym guy, but worked on form and function stuff. Putting in just as much time as any other professional dedicated to his craft. So you blasting him for being lazy and unmotivated is you just buying into the pothead personality stuff.

You're basing your whole argument on stereotypes instead of facts.

[Curt McGirt]

We should end this by saying Aytch had some good matches with Mick Foley because that's all I got. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

3 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

This is a bad take. I wrote like 3,000 words putting over how much I enjoyed Triple H's career, so I am from someone clouded by that Raw run. And I very much disagree with you here. It's not about liking or not liking someone, it's about hypocrisy. You mean the guy whose whole character was "he's a pothead, lol" was a pothead and the company acted shocked? That's some hardcore corporate pearl clutching. If you're gonna make money off of a man's personality, don't act shocked and outraged when that very personality is put on display publicly.

Triple H worked hard as fuck. He lived wrestling and breathed wrestling. Still does. RVD has also dedicated his life to wrestling and worked just as hard, just in different ways. It's not fair to act like RVD didn't do hours of yoga and flexibility workouts just because he doesn't have a bodyguy look. He was most certainly a gym guy, but worked on form and function stuff. Putting in just as much time as any other professional dedicated to his craft. So you blasting him for being lazy and unmotivated is you just buying into the pothead personality stuff.

You're basing your whole argument on stereotypes instead of facts.

I completely disagree with this because you neglected many aspects of their personas to focus on just the work that goes into their bodies. 

What about the work we don't see. The hours Hunter spent watching matches, studying his peers, picking the brains of Flair and others.. by all accounts he was a student of the game through and through and I haven't even touched on the creative side. 

Hunter volunteered to attend creative meetings and learn that side of it as well. He said anyone could have did that and he's right, but he chose to do it and people paint that as a bad thing, its actually the opposite, Hunter understands what works and what doesn't, NXT was the best booked promotion for years and he was the one running the show. 

That's what Hunter's dedication looks like. He was involved in every facet of the wrestling business, people just write it off as "Steph" but that is just more hate.. Hunter worked harder than anyone around.

[Beech27]

45 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

What about the work we don't see. The hours Hunter spent watching matches, studying his peers, picking the brains of Flair and others.. by all accounts he was a student of the game through and through and I haven't even touched on the creative side. 

That’s commendable, though not really something we can reliably track. Many, many wrestlers were/are enormous fans without making “student of the game” their gimmick and part of their company-branded mythos.

And ultimately, it matters less how much Triple H studied than what that study yielded. There’s a proud legacy of non-fans who just went to work and were better ultimately than he was, just like there are footage-chasing obsessives who were better.  

[AxB]

If Booker T doesn’t deserve to be a top babyface carrying the company as Champion after Wrestlemania , he shouldn’t be the top babyface challenging for the title at Wrestlemania.

[JohnnyJ]

Just throwing it out there that Trips got into the creative meetings because of his relationship with Shawn. Im not faulting him, but I wouldn’t describe it as an example of dedication. It’s an example of networking.

[Octopus]

I do not look at HHH fondly and I’m likely too biased for this conversation. I will say that @NoFistsJustFlips had a well written response to his career. He’s definitely an important figure in the history of WWE, both behind the scenes and as a character, for better or worse. 
 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I completely disagree with this because you neglected many aspects of their personas to focus on just the work that goes into their bodies. 

What about the work we don't see. The hours Hunter spent watching matches, studying his peers, picking the brains of Flair and others.. by all accounts he was a student of the game through and through and I haven't even touched on the creative side.

This is a very good point. In that the goal of watching all that stuff is to learn and grow as a performer, and get better. He did put in more effort in tape study for sure, we agree there. But there are other ways to learn and grow. I'm not saying we should grade RVD an A+ at this aspect, but he was a student of the game in other ways. Road trips with The Sheik early in his career. Constantly being creative and coming up with new outside the box concepts (vs aping Harley and Flair stuff). Triple H's dedication is unmatched. But we can't know for sure that RVD didn't take it pretty serious. You're just basing that entirely on his personality. A stereotype.

Also how do we rate on the scale a guy like an AJ Styles? Did not watch wrestling growing up. Incredibly hard worker with a ton of high end work. But he's not out there studying tapes like Triple H did either. Shouldn't we credit them for what was presented on the canvas, more so than how they came to those skills? Triple H did far more study. But I'd argue RVD's output was almost as good even if he didn't have to study. (Alot of this is a style arguement to be fair. I lean towards new and outside of the box vs traditional / old school).
 

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Hunter volunteered to attend creative meetings and learn that side of it as well. He said anyone could have did that and he's right, but he chose to do it and people paint that as a bad thing, its actually the opposite, Hunter understands what works and what doesn't, NXT was the best booked promotion for years and he was the one running the show. 

That's what Hunter's dedication looks like. He was involved in every facet of the wrestling business, people just write it off as "Steph" but that is just more hate.. Hunter worked harder than anyone around.

This isn't a fair point at all. Production meetings weren't open to anyone who wanted to go. You had to have the political clout in the first place. Had RVD wanted to go he would have been denied. Triple H shouldn't get credit for something 98% of the roster was never going to be allowed to do anyways. I agree that "because Steph" gets used wayyy too often. He was in those production meetings before they were dating. But he was there because he was Shawn's boy. Not hating on that. But he was part of 3 way calls with Shawn & Vince on Montreal strategy suggestions and other booking stuff. Him being the one pushing for the screwjob earned him more clout with Vince than dating Steph. But dating Steph definitely leveled him up.

We're not *that* far off. Triple H was badass in my opinion. And he worked hard as fuck in all aspects of the business. But him going above and beyond shouldn't negate the fact that other people were able to get over and become more entertaining. Triple H certainly worked harder / loved the business more than Hogan. But I don't see anyone saying because of that Hunter was more important and better for WWE on top than Hogan was. I'd take Triple H's 2000 over any year for RVD. But that doesn't negate the fact that RVD was more than deserving of runs on top. And getting the equivalent of a summary offense & fine should not have been enough to derail his chances.

Edited March 27, 2022 by NoFistsJustFlips

[Matt D]

I know I kind of got the ball rolling on this, but I don't have a ton to say at this juncture. Let me put it this way though.

For those of us who were that initial smarky internet audience in the late 90s and into the early 00s...

In the 00s, he was exactly the enemy we deserved. In the 10s, he exactly was the friend we deserved.

That says as much about us as it does about him.

[Niners Fan in CT]

1 hour ago, AxB said:

If Booker T doesn’t deserve to be a top babyface carrying the company as Champion after Wrestlemania , he shouldn’t be the top babyface challenging for the title at Wrestlemania.

The RAW Brand was really bad.  He probably should have won but the brand was bad and not because of Hunter..    The SD! roster was just way better. 

[AxB]

When Sabu and RVD were training under The Sheikh, it was all fundamentals and no high spots. They would only do the dives and flips when Sheikh would go to the house to get a drink. And for the first few years of Sabu’s career (as Terry S.R. or Terry Essar) he was a standard collar and elbow- headlock- international spot guy. It was only when Sheikh took him to FMW and changed his name to Sabu that he told him “No more headlocks. Do that crazy shit you and Rob do when you think I’m not watching “.

[A_K]

2 hours ago, AxB said:

If Booker T doesn’t deserve to be a top babyface carrying the company as Champion after Wrestlemania , he shouldn’t be the top babyface challenging for the title at Wrestlemania.

Eh .. the Raw belt was not a centrepiece at the event. Lesnar/Angle, Austin/Rock .. even Jericho/Michaels & McMahon/Hogan (which literally capped the end of the WWF era, and had enormous sentimentality stakes) justifiably much bigger bouts. So by no means was the talent in that position (whoever it happened to be) the "top talent". Context, as ever, is key. Triple H/Booker T were both basically mid-card / placeholders for that event .. neither remotely top heel or top face. That's likely also the reason why Booker was even in the event position to begin with, coming from his performance-to-date in the company: in a normal year, with the title normally the most important aspect of the event, he wouldnt have been near that match. Triple H won what was 4-bouts removed from the top of the evening: hardly huge fireworks-top of the card finish.

Edited March 27, 2022 by A_K

[HarryArchieGus]

On 3/27/2022 at 1:40 PM, Matt D said:

I know I kind of got the ball rolling on this, but I don't have a ton to say at this juncture. Let me put it this way though.

For those of us who were that initial smarky internet audience in the late 90s and into the early 00s...

In the 00s, he was exactly the enemy we deserved. In the 10s, he exactly was the friend we deserved.

That says as much about us as it does about him.

Deserved!?  That's sick talk.  I wouldn't wish Hunter's reign of doom, especially during a rotten WWE monopoly era, on the worst of my fellow DVDVR posters.      

On 3/27/2022 at 1:51 PM, Niners Fan in CT said:

The RAW Brand was really bad.  He probably should have won but the brand was bad and not because of Hunter..    The SD! roster was just way better. 

Sure, overall creative was much worse than the constant rambling promos and sleepy bouts Helmsley was responsible for.  Tho, knowing how much he was involved in creative might determine if he was truly to blame.  Tho, his on screen content alone still makes me think he's the guiltiest party.    

Watching 03 RAW you could certainly conclude that the brand's roster was weak, but, as pretty much always concerning WWE, there were a bunch of quality performers either being completely misused or barely at all - Raven, RVD, Booker, Jericho, the Dudleys (ridiculously as singles), the Hardys, Kanyon, Lance Storm, Christian, D'Lo, Al Snow, Jamal/Umaga, Rob Conway, Regal, Spike Dudley, Rico Constantino (yeah, let's make him a manager), Val Venis, Shane Helms, Bradshaw, Dustin, Stevie Richards, and Justin Credible.  There were also a bunch of 'Names' that could mostly still go or do what they do - Kane, Goldberg, Nash, Flair, Hunter and Scott Steiner.  Some up and comers like Dave Bautista, Randy Orton, and Mark Jindrak.  A women's division featuring  Molly Holly, Ivory, Gail Kim, Jacqueline, Jazz and Trish Stratus.  The only real duds on the roster list (other than some of the aforementioned 'names') were guys who were mostly just not ready - like Chris Nowinski, Maven, Grenier and Dupree, Rosie of 3 Minute Warning, and John Heidenreich.  That's a solid enough roster.  Smackdown appeared better because they had the booking talents of Paul Heyman.  Raw had the truly awful Brian Gewitz.    


 

Edited March 28, 2022 by HarryArchieGus

[Krone]

I could be wrong on this, but if I remember correctly (and I could be off base on this) - but I seem to recall Prichard saying on his podcast years ago that they had initially penciled in the Steiner/HHH feud to be a 3 eventer (Rumble, No Way Out, Mania) but that Scott's in ring performance was so bad they had to pivot away from that and we ended up with Booker T. Post Mania, we were always going to get Goldberg vs. Triple H because let's be honest, there's no way they were going to keep Goldberg away from the title when they only had him on a year long contract and certainly weren't gonna do a "Dubya Cee Dubya" feud with Booker T and Goldberg. Had they done Steiner/HHH 3 at Mania, it probably would've been in the exact same position with the exact same outcome.

[A_K]

44 minutes ago, Krone Meltzer said:

I could be wrong on this, but if I remember correctly (and I could be off base on this) - but I seem to recall Prichard saying on his podcast years ago that they had initially penciled in the Steiner/HHH feud to be a 3 eventer (Rumble, No Way Out, Mania) but that Scott's in ring performance was so bad they had to pivot away from that and we ended up with Booker T. Post Mania, we were always going to get Goldberg vs. Triple H because let's be honest, there's no way they were going to keep Goldberg away from the title when they only had him on a year long contract and certainly weren't gonna do a "Dubya Cee Dubya" feud with Booker T and Goldberg. Had they done Steiner/HHH 3 at Mania, it probably would've been in the exact same position with the exact same outcome.

Taking Booker from a novelty tag team and putting him in main event was never going to be plan A, esp as they knew Goldberg was on the way (debut next night). So this makes sense. The whole feud was a mid card WM event as noted above: would have been midcard had it been Booker or Steiner vs HHH. Simply wasn’t an important feature of the event that year. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

1 hour ago, A_K said:

Eh .. the Raw belt was not a centrepiece at the event. Lesnar/Angle, Austin/Rock .. even Jericho/Michaels & McMahon/Hogan (which literally capped the end of the WWF era, and had enormous sentimentality stakes) justifiably much bigger bouts. So by no means was the talent in that position (whoever it happened to be) the "top talent". Context, as ever, is key. Triple H/Booker T were both basically mid-card / placeholders for that event .. neither remotely top heel or top face.

I agree 6,000% with everything typed up until this point. And here is why I ask (in vein) why the fuck are there two world titles then??? lol -(Rhetorical)

I hate having two world titles. There's no logic to it. And I very much prefer a structure and an internal logic to my story telling. And now I'm off to go yell at some clouds.

[zendragon]

7 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Just based off this thread I would say that's not the case. Nobody is even making a strong argument for these guys he supposedly held back. 

Booker T is the best case to be made, Booker T probably should have won at least the WM19 feud (putting the Goldberg excuse aside). They had a chance with RVD in 2001 if they really wanted it, he was the most over guy on the invasion angle but Stone Cold wasn't going to put him over, whether you blame the company or Stone Cold himself is up to you. Speaking of Stone Cold, he flat out refused the job to Lesnar and people here make every excuse in the book for it, Hunter laid down for Batista and Cena several times, Stone Cold doesn't catch any hate from the iwc for the Lesnar thing yet another double standard and why these arguments cannot be taken seriously.

I don't know how much blame for RVD/Booker should be on HHH and how much should be on Vince, but Austin was always willing to do business when it was time. Sure he was protective of his spot but what top guy wasn't. He would have put over Lesnar just not on free TV with no build, Tha'ts like WCW giving Hogan Goldberg away for free. He talked in his book about how it was important for him to put over The Rock cleanly at the end, and afte a two year unbeaten run on top he put over Foley clean

[supremebve]

We disagree pretty strongly on some of this, so allow me to retort.

On 3/26/2022 at 12:00 PM, NoFistsJustFlips said:

In ring performer Triple H was one of the best technicians of the last 20 years.

I couldn't disagree with this more, I think he believes that he is one of the best technicians, but I think it is one of the reasons he's been kind of terrible to watch for good parts of his career.  He's at his best as a brawler.  Honestly, I want you to think about your favorite HHH matches, and think about how many of them were wild brawls and how many were technical masterpieces.  I'd bet you'd have twice as many brawls.  Honestly, I'd say that his best matches are with Foley overall, because HHH was one of the few people who could stand toe to toe with Foley and give and take a beating.  I think his selling is really underrated, he is someone who is generally more giving in the ring that you'd assume based on all the politicking he did behind the scenes.  Don't get me wrong, when he's in the ring with a technician, he can do his part, and hold his own.  The problem is when he is the technician in a match, the match is going to suck.  If he has to lead, I'd much rather the match be a knock down drag out fight, not a technical wrestling match.  The thing about HHH is that he's legitimately good at almost everything, but he's much better as the canvas than he is as the painter.  He's a potentially great opponent with almost everyone, but I'd rather have a more limited wrestler make the decisions while HHH fills in the white space.  

On 3/26/2022 at 12:00 PM, NoFistsJustFlips said:

He was outspoken about not believing in Jericho, and Edge, and Booker, & RVD, & Angle.

This is where this  is the most interesting to me, especially with hindsight.  I feel at the time that he should have put all of these guys over, but I'm not sure if that is true now.  Jericho is one of the better wrestlers of all-time and in my mind is head and shoulders better than HHH in pretty much every way.  Jericho can thrive in almost every single situation, he's better on the mic, a better technical wrestler, just as good in a brawl, and has been one of the better heavyweight flyers of his generation.  Not putting Jericho over is pretty much inexcusable then and now.  Edge on the other hand is kind of understandable to me.  I think Edge is good, but I don't think I've ever thought of him as a guy to build your show around.  He's at his best as a crafty heel who is kind of what HHH was already doing.  The characters are very different in execution, but very similar in where and how they fit on the card.  If you are HHH, why would you put over a character who is essentially filling the exact same role that you are filling.  Both are conniving heels who rely on being dastardly to win as much if not more than their wrestling skills.  If HHH puts him over, he's basically telling the audience that Edge is better than him at what he's good at, and I can see why he wouldn't want to do that.  They are both kind of the same guy to me, guys who spent a good bit of time at the top of the card, who have a bunch of good matches, but none I ever really feel the need to watch.  The only reason I think he should have put Booker T over is that they built racism in the feud and you can't have the racist win...except they let the racist win.  I don't think Booker would have been a great world champion, but not making him world champion was a worse decision based on the feud.  I never saw RVD as worthy as a world championship, but he was incredibly over.  Now we get to Kurt Angle, who for all intents and purposes was the person they should have been pushing to be their next big star.  With the benefit of hindsight, we know that would have been a terrible choice.  I have no idea when Angle's drug problems became apparent to people behind the scenes, but the only viable excuse for not putting Angle over HHH at the time is that they knew he was having health issues and drug problems.  Angle was arguably better in and out of the ring than HHH, and was only a couple years into his career so there is no reason to think he wouldn't get better with more experience.  He was a better face, a better heel, and was just plain more entertaining to watch.  So, in my opinion Jericho and Angle are the most egregious examples of HHH holding down a worker who he should have put over.  Jericho and Angle were both capable of being in the main event as a face or a heel, were better in the ring, and were better promos.  Edge is the one I go back and forth on the most.  I like Edge well enough, but I don't know if the show is any better if HHH puts him over.  I think it would be just about the same with a guy we like more, which isn't nothing.  Booker T should have gone over because they told a story that only works if he is put over, but I don't think he was the right guy at the time.  I honestly think RVD hit his ceiling as a credible World Championship challenger, but I never saw him as a World Champion. 

On 3/26/2022 at 12:00 PM, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Executive / Booker Triple H is one of the best of the last 20 years. He took a floundering developmental program over and completely molded it into smart fan's ideal dream promotion.

I agree 100%, but I'd like to add one more thing.  I think the thing he did best is prove that there was a large audience for a traditional wrestling show.  I loved HHH's NXT because it made me realize that I still love wrestling when it is done well.  I have not been able to sit through an episode of Raw or Smackdown in well over a decade.  They've had an all-time great roster of workers during this time, but seem to squander far more talent than they showcase.  The best part of NXT was that everyone on the show was given a chance to get themselves over, and were rewarded when it worked.  That is all I really want from a wrestling show.  Give me a varied cast of wrestlers who are working their asses off to put together the best show possible.  Not everyone has to be trying to put on five star classics, but they have to be trying to master their particular characters.  I loved Emma's character, because it was utterly ridiculous, but got over because of her commitment to that character.  When they called her up to Raw, they put her on TV and no one got it...so they just scrapped it.  That fucking sucked, because she was playing a character that is based on building a relationship with the audience.  I think they could have eventually got her over as the endearing goofball who overcomes the odds, but they didn't give it a chance.  That is not what I want from wrestling, I want to get introduced to new characters and follow their trajectory.  HHH proved, at least to me, that  the kind of wrestling I've been longing for can exist, except WWE has no desire to give it to me.

[cwoy2j]

7 hours ago, Krone Meltzer said:

I'd rather have RVD get busted with some weed than plowing down vicodin after vicodin and be dead at the age of 45. Thankfully the US is getting more lenient on Marijuana as they should - but I will never bash someone who wants to smoke the Devil's Lettuce. That shit is way "better" for you than being reliant on 30+ medications a day. Trust me, when I was a delivery driver for a pharmacy, the amount of pills some people were taking was RIDICULOUS.

I remember listening to The Patriot Del Wilkes on Steve Austin's podcast and he detailed all of the pills he was taking then. I was floored. Anytime he had a day off, he'd basically spend the entire day driving from pharmacy to pharmacy getting scripts filled and popping painkillers like they were candy. It was staggering.

Edited March 27, 2022 by cwoy2j

[thee Reverend Axl Future]

The new Esquire magazine (Jake Gyllenhaal cover) has an outstanding article about and with Mr. CM Punk.

https://www.esquire.com/sports/a39008053/cm-punk-aew-profile/

Very worth the read. Often pieces about wrestlers and wrestling aimed for non-fans are far more informative and insightful; Michael Avedon pics too. If you had told me about this 20+ years ago when I worked him at The Brat Stop in WI we both would have laughed and laughed (maybe for different reasons).

When you get old, you get free magazine subscriptions - one of the few benefits.

[Ziggy]

8 hours ago, AxB said:

If Booker T doesn’t deserve to be a top babyface carrying the company as Champion after Wrestlemania , he shouldn’t be the top babyface challenging for the title at Wrestlemania.

Right, I disagree that Booker wasn't as over heading into WrestleMania 19 maybe he wasn't as over as he was when he first started as a Face teaming With Goldust although I don't agree he was any less over, regardless he should have went over at Mania. If Goldberg was the excuse they ended up putting the belt on him later than they planned on anyway. An IG account PuroDad posted highlights of HHH vs Angle in a rematch from No Way Out  '02 it was pretty dope. I think there was an 8 man featuring Benjamin , Benoit and I can't remember who else vs Evolution on Raw in 04. Also the match vs Flair in 03 were some good TV matches of his . He was had some really good TV matches but relative to how long he was on TV as the top guy then you probably can say he should've have a better string of TV matched compared to Austin, Rock or Foley who's career was done alot sooner. Taker has had a better stretch of TV matches especially after a lot of those guys were done up until he couldn't work full-time 

[username]

4 hours ago, supremebve said:

  I loved Emma's character, because it was utterly ridiculous, but got over because of her commitment to that character.  When they called her up to Raw, they put her on TV and no one got it...so they just scrapped it.  That fucking sucked, because she was playing a character that is based on building a relationship with the audience.

I think this is why it didn't work and something they at times struggles with when talent moved from NXT to the main roster. Emma worked on NXT because she started off as a goof who no one should take seriously and gradually became someone worth believing in. The problem is that you can't then bring her onto the main show and act like that crowd is gonna take her seriously, but also if you just pretend that all that happened on NXT didn't happen then a portion of the audience is gonna grumble (for the main example see when Bayley got called up and how much they struggled to thread that needle).

 

Also TBH Emma seemed embarrassed to be doing it on the big show so it was likely gonna die regardless, scrapping it and having her reload back down in NXT was probably the right move.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Super well thought out post @supremebve. I don't think it's worth quoting parts I disagree with because it's a lot of opinion and preference, and you posted a lot of good point I don't want to "yeah but". The only thing that I think I can add to clarify considering him one of the greatest technicians in the last 20 years is that some things don't translate well to the audience / aren't entertaining. My best way to explain this is Pepper Parks / The Blade. I have worked him a bunch of times and I would put him up against anyone in the world as one of the best in ring guys ever. I get that he doesn't have a lot of super high rated work by fans. And a lot of his Braxton Sutter run wasn't well recieved. But being in the ring with dude he is smooth as fucking butter and it's hard to articulate why. But it's almost like his work is so on point you can go into auto pilot. You know he's always gonna be where you need him to be and at exactly the right time.

There's a lot of guys out there like that. I can agree with you purely from a fan perspective maybe Triple H doesn't rate that high as a technician. But watching from a wrestler's eye, there's so many little unnoticed things he is amazing at. Feeding to the right places at the right time. Showing ass at just the right time. Feeding comebacks exactly at the pace the crowd is dictating. Fans are smart as hell these days so I'm not saying these are things fans can't watch for. But there are these little unappreciated things a worker can do that factor into how I rate things. Maybe not super exciting, but Triple H is also smooth as butter and anyone who has worked him basically has a night off. Orton is another good example. You hear all these wrestlers dropping his name as the best active wrestler in the world, but not many fans agree. Same principal.

You are right about Triple H and brawling tho. My favorite Triple H match of all time is that Royal Rumble Street Fight with Cactus. (2nd place is his super under rated match against Taka).

[Cobra Commander]

if anybody in the WWE Creative actually watched the Oscars, they might have Seth Rollins make some joke about Brandi somehow only for Cody Rhodes to make his debut to slap him.

[Krone]

5 hours ago, cwoy2j said:

I remember listening to The Patriot Del Wilkes on Steve Austin's podcast and he detailed all of the pills he was taking then. I was floored. Anytime he had a day off, he'd basically spend the entire day driving from pharmacy to pharmacy getting scripts filled and popping painkillers like they were candy. It was staggering.

I remember hearing this exact story on that exact podcast on a trip to South Carolina. Something like 90 a day. That just doesn't even seem real does it.