March 2022 Wrestling Discussion

[Niners Fan in CT]

1 minute ago, Kevin Wilson said:

Anyone that does an over-the-top defense of HHH full of questionable "facts" and actually uses the term "best for business" in the process is clearly a troll.

Show me the parts that were wrong

[Zakk_Sabbath]

I will say with regard to Booker/Steiner/RVD that in retrospect, my own perception of HHH's handling of them was probably colored by the fact that all three of those guys came from other then-recently-folded promotions that even in their dying days were infinitely more enjoyable for me personally than what HHH was doing on top at that time

[HumanChessgame]

I've never been a fan of HHH but even when I don't like someone I can still try and look at them objectively to try and see positive things they've brought to the table, or realize why others might enjoy them. The WM30 bout with Daninelson is the last time I can remember him having a decent match, but then again if you can't have a good outing with Danielson then you're really putrid. Is there any case of him having a good match with someone significantly less good than he was?

His work with NXT is a big mark in his favor, and most of the feedback I've heard from guys who worked with him during that period have positive things to say about him.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

RVD for example was given the chance to main event WWE and usher in a new era of ECW and he would rather get pulled over with drugs in the car than to take his role seriously. 

I always thought the reaction to this was, no pun intended, an extreme overreaction. Two notes:

1) I somehow doubt he wanted to get pulled over.

2) He was busted for 18 grams of pot and five Vicodins, the latter of which was a charge thrown out when he produced a prescription. You mean to tell me the guy who consistently referenced pot for over a decade got busted for a relatively miniscule amount of pot? Shock of shocks.

So you're going to throw out your entire booking plans and third brand expansion because the guy who used to have shirts that say RVD 4:20 and appeared in High Times magazine got caught with barely over half an ounce of pot? After you've employed him for five years? Seriously?

I don't know. Seems strange to me.

[TheVileOne]

1 hour ago, HumanChessgame said:

I've never been a fan of HHH but even when I don't like someone I can still try and look at them objectively to try and see positive things they've brought to the table, or realize why others might enjoy them. The WM30 bout with Daninelson is the last time I can remember him having a decent match, but then again if you can't have a good outing with Danielson then you're really putrid. Is there any case of him having a good match with someone significantly less good than he was?

His work with NXT is a big mark in his favor, and most of the feedback I've heard from guys who worked with him during that period have positive things to say about him.

I think Triple H had fairly decent to good TV matches with Test, Big Show, Bubba Ray, Spike Dudley, Taka Michinoku, and Tajiri.

[Kang]

Reportedly Cody Rhodes will be selected by Vince to face Seth. I've read something about Cody being WWE EVP, I'm not so sure about that part.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Blue Dragon

[TheVileOne]

4 minutes ago, Blue Dragon said:

Reportedly Cody Rhodes will be selected by Vince to face Seth. I've read something about Cody being WWE EVP, I'm not so sure about that part.

Looks like a Wrestling News Now thumbnail

[Phil4126]

5 hours ago, kafkonia said:

Wrestling is littered with guys who though they were better than they were. Hunter is possibly the best of that bunch, and one of the few who got to try to pull it off.

He was a good character worker, but not the kind you build a promotion around. They tried it anyway.

He had charisma, but not the kind to break out into mainstream crossover success. They tried it anyway.

He was a good wrestler, but not a superworker whose strengths lent themselves to epic in-ring classics. They tried it anyway.

He had a good physique. So they booked him in a posedown with Scott Steiner.

He had a couple of storylines where he was devious and manipulative. So they dubbed him the Cerebral Assassin and had him... hit people with sledgehammers and play-act necrophilia.

He was ultimately, ironically, a solid B+.

Much like Jim Cornette said, he was the guy who worked with the guy who drew the money. And there's nothing wrong with that

[SirSmUgly]

Booker had not hit his ceiling by the HHH match. He was WAYYYY over after the team with Goldust ended and badly needed that win to cement him as a top guy. 

I don't think Booker is a great worker or anything, but there's no way to watch Booker catch fire in the run-up to that match and make the argument that he'd hit his ceiling. 

HHH's best TV match is probably against Rikishi in 2000. For a guy who worked on TV for so many years, he has a shocking lack of quality TV matches. 

[Cobra Commander]

meanwhile, Buff Bagwell's twitter is a ride

this was his response to a Twitter rando attempting transphobia in his responses in a thread that started with this:

[Ziggy]

1 hour ago, Phil4126 said:

Much like Jim Cornette said, he was the guy who worked with the guy who drew the money. And there's nothing wrong with that

The issue though is, it hurt business by giving him so much time or in his case, giving himself so much time on top over guys that were ready to be the next top guy. He changed the formula of the Top guy of the brand being the babyface. Until Cena came along and even when he was the top Babyface champ , they rejected him.

[Ziggy]

I hate to make it seem like I'm shitting on HHH because I,  almost shed a tear watching him speak about his health situation and his kids. I've enjoyed different parts of his career and there's been part I haven't and I've always thought he has a great mind for the business. In fact I believe especially as he stopped being full time inring he was a better asset to the company even still having to compromise with the boss's ultimate decisions obviously but I do believe when you are in the trenches as a full time worker alot of your politicking is based off self preservation 

[Phantom Lord]

Aside from the reign of terror in 2002-2003 where Booker should have won at WM 19 and Goldberg in the elimination chamber, I always thought Triple H was a solid champion. He just wanted to be Ric Flair without all of Flairs baggage.

I think he redeemed himself for all that hate the iwc had him with nxt. His nxt had plenty of stars for the wwe. It's not his fault that Vince didn't see anything in those people.

If given the chance he probably could be a competent head of a show but thats never happening until Vince is gone.

[zendragon]

HHH is like Phil Jackson solid pro, legendary coach. I do wonder what WWE would be like to day if Vince had given him the keys to the kingdom and then stepped down.

[Raziel]

7 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

meanwhile, Buff Bagwell's twitter is a ride

this was his response to a Twitter rando attempting transphobia in his responses in a thread that started with this:

In other Bagwell news, he also appears to be DDP's next reclamation project.

[A_K]

The Booker stuff is way, way overdone. It was a very poor taste angle (who’d have thought the carny world of pro-wrestling would indulge in poor, gutter taste sporadically) but as a talent he’d fallen pretty flat after the Invasion stuff and got a bit of steam going only as part of a novelty tag team. Not really sufficient material to merit the Title being strapped to him given the roster they had at the time. Besides, over the next 12 months he’d wear basically every other title in the company and eventually take the world title too. Hardly a total burial. 
 

The very next quarter they ran the H/Goldberg program (which 100% will have been in the booking pipeline anyway during the H/Booker program), which wouldn’t have worked with Booker at head. H then also dropped the title very next WM to Benoit. So, yeah, all a bit smarky conspiracy theorist territory. 

[cwoy2j]

12 hours ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I always thought the reaction to this was, no pun intended, an extreme overreaction. Two notes:

1) I somehow doubt he wanted to get pulled over.

2) He was busted for 18 grams of pot and five Vicodins, the latter of which was a charge thrown out when he produced a prescription. You mean to tell me the guy who consistently referenced pot for over a decade got busted for a relatively miniscule amount of pot? Shock of shocks.

So you're going to throw out your entire booking plans and third brand expansion because the guy who used to have shirts that say RVD 4:20 and appeared in High Times magazine got caught with barely over half an ounce of pot? After you've employed him for five years? Seriously?

I don't know. Seems strange to me.

And apparently Sabu was willing to take the rap for the whole thing but RVD wouldn't let him (IIRC, Sabu said that in a shoot interview). You'd think that would've scored some points with Vince for him.

[Niners Fan in CT]

12 hours ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I always thought the reaction to this was, no pun intended, an extreme overreaction. Two notes:

1) I somehow doubt he wanted to get pulled over.

2) He was busted for 18 grams of pot and five Vicodins, the latter of which was a charge thrown out when he produced a prescription. You mean to tell me the guy who consistently referenced pot for over a decade got busted for a relatively miniscule amount of pot? Shock of shocks.

So you're going to throw out your entire booking plans and third brand expansion because the guy who used to have shirts that say RVD 4:20 and appeared in High Times magazine got caught with barely over half an ounce of pot? 

1. That doesn't matter, a lot of people don't mean to do something, we don't know what was going through his mind.

2. Yes, they did scrap the booking plans and I'm not sure what there is to argue over. They were front page news with that arrest, I remember it well. Anytime you embarrass your employer all bets are off, I don't have any sympathy for that, the solution isn't "they were too harsh" the solution is maybe don't drive around with drugs in the car. 

I get it, people like RVD waayyy more than Triple H but one was a professional who took especially the business side of wrestling very seriously and the other was just happy to be there and the money afforded him to do other things he'd rather do. I will not fault a man who worked harder at his craft. 

Most here aren't going to agree because again they are clouded by a short period of time on the RAW brand where a couple of their favorites didn't win when they "should have" and will throw out the rest of Hunter's career because of it.

[Beech27]

9 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

HHH's best TV match is probably against Rikishi in 2000. For a guy who worked on TV for so many years, he has a shocking lack of quality TV matches. 

And his batting average on the other end of the spectrum isn’t great either. Just looking at Wrestlemania, since that’s key to WWE mythology, for every Bryan match, Rousey tag, or triple threat, there are relative duds like the matches against Sting, Sheamus, and Booker, to bombs like the Orton and Reigns main events. 

Also, however fun the shows were for a bit, had his visions for NXT ultimately won out, I think it would have been a disaster for the global wrestling scene. The last thing anyone but WWE needs is the whole industry being pop-up franchises/a collection of corporate IP action figures. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

6 hours ago, Phantom Lord said:

I think he redeemed himself for all that hate the iwc had him with nxt.

Just based off this thread I would say that's not the case. Nobody is even making a strong argument for these guys he supposedly held back. 

Booker T is the best case to be made, Booker T probably should have won at least the WM19 feud (putting the Goldberg excuse aside). They had a chance with RVD in 2001 if they really wanted it, he was the most over guy on the invasion angle but Stone Cold wasn't going to put him over, whether you blame the company or Stone Cold himself is up to you. Speaking of Stone Cold, he flat out refused the job to Lesnar and people here make every excuse in the book for it, Hunter laid down for Batista and Cena several times, Stone Cold doesn't catch any hate from the iwc for the Lesnar thing yet another double standard and why these arguments cannot be taken seriously.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

11 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

1. That doesn't matter, a lot of people don't mean to do something, we don't know what was going through his mind.

2. Yes, they did scrap the booking plans and I'm not sure what there is to argue over. They were front page news with that arrest, I remember it well. Anytime you embarrass your employer all bets are off, I don't have any sympathy for that, the solution isn't "they were too harsh" the solution is maybe don't drive around with drugs in the car. 

I get it, people like RVD waayyy more than Triple H but one was a professional who took especially the business side of wrestling very seriously and the other was just happy to be there and the money afforded him to do other things he'd rather do. I will not fault a man who worked harder at his craft. 

Most here aren't going to agree because again they are clouded by a short period of time on the RAW brand where a couple of their favorites didn't win when they "should have" and will throw out the rest of Hunter's career because of it.

"Triple H was the professional who took the business side of wrestling very seriously" is especially rich considering he was the wheelman for a group of wrestlers who were basically too inebriated to drive, and that's how he got into WWE hierarchy. Imagine if he had been pulled over while driving the rest of the Kliq around when they were taking what folks like Kevin Nash claimed they were taking, how different your argument would be today. Your argument is basically "RVD should have gotten a wheelman".

Especially when cops can essentially arrest you for any reason in states with reasonable suspicion laws. If you're famous, that'll become front page news too, but your release without charges will be on page 18. Should that be a reason to change booking plans?

RVD's drug charges were tantamount to a speeding ticket in terms of the legal punishment he got (IIRC it was a $150 fine). Should we change booking plans over a speeding ticket?

[Wyld Samurai]

When i think of the top guys in WWF History...

1. Hogan

2. Austin

3. Rock 

4. Bruno

5. Cena

6. Savage

7. Bret

8. Michaels 

9. Warrior

10. HHH

The funny thing is I was a big Jean Paul Levesque / Terra Ryzing fan. I loved the initial Hunter Hearst Helmsley... but then he just became so boring. 

I will rewatch at anytime Warrior vs Hogan or Warrior vs Savage... 

There might be one HHH match I will rewatch.. but its a gimmick match. HHH vs Cactus in the cage... and that was all Cactus with the psychology.

 

[Niners Fan in CT]

2 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

"Triple H was the professional who took the business side of wrestling very seriously" is especially rich considering he was the wheelman for a group of wrestlers who were basically too inebriated to drive, and that's how he got into WWE hierarchy. Imagine if he had been pulled over while driving the rest of the Kliq around when they were taking what folks like Kevin Nash claimed they were taking, how different your argument would be today. Your argument is basically "RVD should have gotten a wheelman".

Especially when cops can essentially arrest you for any reason in states with reasonable suspicion laws. If you're famous, that'll become front page news too, but your release without charges will be on page 18. Should that be a reason to change booking plans?

RVD's drug charges were tantamount to a speeding ticket in terms of the legal punishment he got (IIRC it was a $150 fine). Should we change booking plans over a speeding ticket?

Don't see the comparison here. Triple H didn't drink and drive, he didn't drink period. Him being a Wheelman is commendable. If your friends can't help themselves then at least make sure they are alright and not endangering people on the road. 

It's not up to us to tell an employer how they should react. Many people are fired over drunk driving charges on down the line for incidents that had nothing to do with work. That's nothing new, it's cool to hate on WWE but what they did was what a lot of companies would have done. 

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Don't see the comparison here. Triple H didn't drink and drive, he didn't drink period. Him being a Wheelman is commendable. If your friends can't help themselves then at least make sure they are alright and not endangering people on the road. 

It's not up to us to tell an employer how they should react. Many people are fired over drunk driving charges on down the line for incidents that had nothing to do with work. That's nothing new, it's cool to hate on WWE but what they did was what a lot of companies would have done. 

So you're not familiar with how transporting and intent to distribute laws work. Cool.

If what Nash said they were taking was legitimate, then here's my point: they pull Triple H over driving the Kliq around with what they're carrying? He gets arrested on intent to distribute. "But it's not mine" is a very legally shaky argument to try and get your way out of depending on how much you're caught with when you're in the car. A half-ounce of pot is nothing compared to a hundred or so pills per person, even if you can produce a prescription. It's even worse if those pills aren't in their containers.

So him being a wheelman is commendable, yes, but he gets pulled over once and the fanny packs full of pills become a big problem that you need a fixer to clean up, and that's a way bigger deal than a half-ounce of pot.

Hence why, again, your argument is basically that RVD should've gotten a wheelman, not that RVD shouldn't have have been carrying a half-ounce of pot, something he'd probably been carrying for years and years (so that, might I add, he wouldn't need to carry a fanny pack full of pills).

Anyway, I have nothing else to add to this conversation. You're welcome to whatever final point you'd like.

[Krone]

I'd rather have RVD get busted with some weed than plowing down vicodin after vicodin and be dead at the age of 45. Thankfully the US is getting more lenient on Marijuana as they should - but I will never bash someone who wants to smoke the Devil's Lettuce. That shit is way "better" for you than being reliant on 30+ medications a day. Trust me, when I was a delivery driver for a pharmacy, the amount of pills some people were taking was RIDICULOUS.

 

Edit - I should add I also smoke weed so that also gives me some insight. I remember being 14 and told ghat weed was a gateway drug lol What a load of bullshit.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Krone Meltzer