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February 2022 - Professional Wrestling Omnibus Discussion

Dolfan in NYC

By Dolfan in NYC
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John E. Dynamite

John E. Dynamite

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Posted (edited)

i'm like two bottles of wine in and i'm trying to tack on thoughts to my old google doc of a Unified Theory of Modern Professional Wrestling. i want to get all academic w/ this shit, or maybe all 95 Theses, but all i got is the narcissism of an intelligent but distracted millennial and a community college degree in theater~

Professional wrestling must be predominantly understood as a performance art and predominantly presented as sport. Understanding or presenting professional wrestling entirely as performance art or entirely as sport goes against its very nature (and in a post-kayfabe environment is either impossible or pointless).

The primary storytelling goals of pro-wrestling, as dictated by the nature of the fictional objectives of the artform, are that of philosophical and moral beliefs being argued via violence - particularly retributive violence. 

Belief that the main purpose of professional wrestling is athletic exhibition is a fallacy. The fallacy is primarily derived from professional wrestling’s use as wish fulfillment amongst adolescent males. 

Professional wrestling cannot be properly criticized without considering the gradual shift between the audience's kayfabe/post-kayfabe understanding of the artform. Parts of professional wrestling that are heavily tied to the audience’s understanding of kayfabe, i.e. heel heat, audience expectation and desire, movesets, implication of outcomes, etc. can only be properly criticized when taking into account the intended  audience’s knowledge of kayfabe.

Successful professional wrestling criticism must be able to differentiate between quarter-hour segment-based serialized wrestling television + the match-driven format of house shows and PPVs. A majority of wrestling criticism - notable Meltzer-derived criticism - is fundamentally flawed because of this and because of its attachment to the previously mentioned bias towards professional wrestling as athletic exhibition

There's a bunch of this kinda stuff. Unfinished thoughts about the dissonance between three types of viewers - a live crowd, someone watching on TV live or w/ no context, or someone watching "historically". The idea of the literal vs. the figurative? or the presentational vs. representational? As it pertains to reality vs. realism vs. the unrealistic. Like OH MY GOD every time I watch really good lucha libre I think about those three things. The context between pro wrestling / real sports & an audiences' knowledge of said context (very pertinent w/ a post-kayfabe audience trending nerdier & more female). yadda yadda

I just get lost in this particular sauce sometimes. And I'm glad I raised myself on old Workrate Reports and stuff like Segunda Caida because there's just so little understanding or discourse about this stuff with the majority of the wrestling "fandom" (I got a lot to say about that concept, too). Even super-mainstream forms of entertainment and art have people that talk about this, film and music being the obvious ones - whether it's a young person's Lindsey Ellis & Anthony Fantano, or mainstream pre-internet types like Kurt Loder and Roger Ebert, or me being a kind of analytical dweeb that gets a ton enjoyment from reading old Pauline Kael & Robert Christgau. Maybe this is all a broader critique of criticism and how people (maybe always have) just seek out opinions that agree with their initial feelings. I don't know where I'm going with this but the idiot kids on reddit deserve something better than Meltzer and Cagematch. We gotta lay some philosophies out 'n shit~

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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John E. Dynamite

John E. Dynamite

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3 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

(I just really wanted to listen to this. Pay no mind)

oh no i will absolutely pay mind. It was the perfect payoff that they became his favorite damn band in the World. Even if he overrates A Thousand Leaves and underrates Murray Street.

Personally I think Lou Reed hating him is more entertaining. Berlin to Christgau = That one TAKA/Taichi BOSJ match to Meltz.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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The Natural

The Natural

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5 hours ago, Lawful Metal said:

I finally cancelled Peacock and the WWE network. We still got it through the 8th. Going through my “must watch” matches before it goes. 


Lawful Jr. and I just watched Magnum / Tully from Starrcade 85. I don’t think there was a single wrestling move done. They busted each other open with punches. PUNCHES. Every time they got on the mic, the guttural way they said “NOOOOOO” stuck with me. The absurdly hard mic shots. Sticking their fingers in their opponent’s cuts. Baby Doll’s reactions. Tully’s arm wound. The stiffest inverted atomic drop I’ve ever seen. The finish. The look of absolute hatred and disgust in himself by Magnum. Holy shit. Full five stars.

Any other “must watch” I haven’t seen? 

I don't know what must watch matches you haven't seen but I'd recommend particularly the bolded:

  • Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, NWA Chi-Town Rumble 1989. *****.
  • Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, NWA Clash of the Champions VI. *****.
  • Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, NWA WrestleWar 1989. All three *****.
  • WarGames, WCW WrestleWar 1992. *****.
  • Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude. WCW Beach Blast 1992. *****.
  • Owen Hart vs. Bret Hart. WWF WrestleMania X. *****.
  • Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind. WWF In Your House X: Mind Games 1996. *****.
  • Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. WWF Survivor Series 1996. *****.
  • Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin at WWF WrestleMania 13 gets my vote as the best match ever. *****.
  • Eddie Guerrero vs. Rey Mysterio. WCW Halloween Havoc 1997. *****.
  • Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker. WWF In Your House 18: Badd Blood. *****.
  • Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker at WWE WrestleMania XXV. *****.
  • Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker at WWE WrestleMania XXVI.
  • John Cena vs. CM Punk. WWE Money in the Bank 2011. *****.
  • John Cena vs. Brock Lesnar. WWE Extreme Rules 2012. *****.
  • John Cena vs. Daniel Bryan. WWE SummerSlam 2013. *****.
  • The Wyatt Family vs. The Shield. WWE Elimination Chamber 2014. *****.
  • Sasha Banks vs. Bayley at NXT TakeOver: Brooklyn 2015 and Respect 2015. Both *****.
  • The Revival vs. DIY. NXT TakeOver: Toronto 2016. *****.
  • Andrade Almas vs. Johnny Gargano. NXT TakeOver: Philadelphia 2018. *****. Best match in NXT history.
  • Daniel Bryan vs. AJ Styles. WWE TLC 2018. *****.
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John E. Dynamite

John E. Dynamite

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1 hour ago, Curt McGirt said:

I haven't listened to anything past Daydream Nation. Is there anything in particular that might be of interest? (Side note: Confusion is my favorite of theirs next to Daydream. Bad Moon is really hard to listen to along with Sister IIRC, though Evol is pretty good.)

oh man how much time ya got?

After Daydream they got signed to Geffen and were part of the post-Nirvana cash grab where every label was looking for the next rando indie band to strike it rich - except Geffen were Nirvana's actual label and Kim was Kurt's actual friend and hero. So their deal allowed them pretty much all the freedom they wanted and they wound up making Goo and Dirty, which as far as I'm concerned are simultaneously nowhere close to as good as Daydream and Sister & total fucking classics in almost every sense, Goo moreso cause it's got a really good A side/B side thing going on and "Kool Thing" is eternal. Dirty seems like more of an intentional response to grunge, but the songs are there. I think "Sugar Kane" is Thurston's best pop song.

Washing Machine is major, major, major, the right kind of realization that you're a band that can headline Lolapalooza and have 0% of the Pearl Jam jocks give a shit. Kim Deal on a Shangri-La's tribute, a song written in entirely diminished chords, two real good spoken-word Lee tracks, a 19-minute closer than actually earns it. Murray Street is their jam band album with the biggest Lee noise-epic they ever recorded and two killer Kim tracks at the end and would have a perfect band member-to-band member flow if they just jettisoned the last Thurston song. Rather Ripped is their "song record" and I immediately take back my statement about "Sugar Kane" and name "Incinerate" as Thurston's best pop song.

They don't really have a bad record, just some whole-is-less-than-the-sum records when they were looking for the next thing to do. Sonic Nurse and A Thousand Leaves are probably the best of the ones I didn't mention. Lot of solo records and experimental weirdo stuff.  Don't want to get into that too much but if you think Confusion is Sex is cool (it is) then I really like SYR8: Andre Sider af Sonic Youth. It's a sixty-minute piece where musicians enter every five minutes and leave every five minutes after the halfway point. Very Royal Rumble. They perform it with supergreat Scandi Skronk Sax dude Mats Gustafsson and the-most-important-harsh-noise-guy-ever Merzbow. I have always absolutely loved it.

that's a lot of words that aren't about wrestling so i apologize, that's all.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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Horatio

Horatio

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6 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

I haven't listened to anything past Daydream Nation. Is there anything in particular that might be of interest? (Side note: Confusion is my favorite of theirs next to Daydream. Bad Moon is really hard to listen to along with Sister IIRC, though Evol is pretty good.)

Goo, brother. Goo.

At least, Goo.

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zendragon

zendragon

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Is Survivor Series 97 AJ/Ken Shamrock/LOD vs The Nation Amhad Johnson's highwater mark? I remember him doing some fun bomb throwing in that one.

 

As for the Royale Rumble I always thought that they figured out the winner, the final four and then booked it backwards

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LoneWolf&Subs

LoneWolf&Subs

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35 minutes ago, zendragon said:

Is Survivor Series 97 AJ/Ken Shamrock/LOD vs The Nation Amhad Johnson's highwater mark? I remember him doing some fun bomb throwing in that one.

He had a few. Pearl River Plunging a dude onto a car, Plunging D’Lo through a table, and the Goldust feud.

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paintedbynumbers

paintedbynumbers

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14 hours ago, Lawful Metal said:

I finally cancelled Peacock and the WWE network. We still got it through the 8th. Going through my “must watch” matches before it goes. 


Lawful Jr. and I just watched Magnum / Tully from Starrcade 85. I don’t think there was a single wrestling move done. They busted each other open with punches. PUNCHES. Every time they got on the mic, the guttural way they said “NOOOOOO” stuck with me. The absurdly hard mic shots. Sticking their fingers in their opponent’s cuts. Baby Doll’s reactions. Tully’s arm wound. The stiffest inverted atomic drop I’ve ever seen. The finish. The look of absolute hatred and disgust in himself by Magnum. Holy shit. Full five stars.

Any other “must watch” I haven’t seen? 

If you haven't seen War Games 91 it's a guilty favorite.   Ric Flair Vs Butch Reed from Nov 1990 Clash is pretty fun.   Steiners Vs Vader/Hughes from Clash Jan 1992 is one of my favorite matches ever.     These are just a few off the top of my head.  

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paintedbynumbers

paintedbynumbers

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9 hours ago, Infinit said:

Off the top of my head...

War Games 1992

Any Austin/Bret matches 

Flair vs Steamboat and Funk 89

Steiner vs Nasty Boys Havoc 91

Warrior vs Savage Mania 7

Steiners Vs Nasty Boys was Havoc 1990.  One of the very, very few WCW vhs tapes my video store had when i was a kid. I must have rented it 50 times.   It was so hard to get WCW tapes and when we did they had a ton of matches cut.  I once spent $200 to buy a bunch of WCW ppv's off of Ebay. The guy promised they were PPV versions.

 

Nope they were just dubbed Turner videos.  When WWE Network came along I immediately put on Wrestle War 91 and was pleased.  I then relived my childhood.  Loved it even if many of the matches were just there to kill time. 

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Shartnado

Shartnado

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33 minutes ago, Lawful Metal said:

When was the Nasties v Cactus / Max Payne? The one with the shovel to the face and the “concession” stand?

Thats a great brawl. 

Any old school ECW brawls? 

Spring Stampede 1994! If you haven't watched that before your subscription runs out, please do! I mean the whole PPV.

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The Natural

The Natural

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1 hour ago, paintedbynumbers said:

Steiners Vs Nasty Boys was Havoc 1990.  One of the very, very few WCW vhs tapes my video store had when i was a kid. I must have rented it 50 times.   It was so hard to get WCW tapes and when we did they had a ton of matches cut.  I once spent $200 to buy a bunch of WCW ppv's off of Ebay. The guy promised they were PPV versions.

 

Nope they were just dubbed Turner videos.  When WWE Network came along I immediately put on Wrestle War 91 and was pleased.  I then relived my childhood.  Loved it even if many of the matches were just there to kill time. 

WCW VHS weren't nearly available like WWF were in the UK. WCW Halloween Havoc 1990 was one of the few with WCW The Great American Bash 1990 and WCW Capital Combat 1990.

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Shartnado

Shartnado

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1 minute ago, The Natural said:

WCW VHS weren't nearly available like WWF were in the UK. WCW Halloween Havoc 1990 was one of the few with WCW The Great American Bash 1990 and WCW Capital Combat 1990.

Yeah, I was able to order Capital Combat, Starrcade'90 and then Beach Blast'92 and Starrcade'92 from a UK mail order company that vanished by the time I tried to place a third order that would have included SuperBrawl III, HalloweenHavoc'91 and something else, I forget, since I ended up never getting them.

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Curt McGirt

Curt McGirt

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9 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

the-most-important-harsh-noise-guy-ever Merzbow

Whoa now that's a collaboration that sounds like peanut butter and chocolate. 

I'll download a couple of the Geffens and see what flies. Incidentally I dl'ed Walls Have Ears last night and didn't know that Kickboy Face from Slash Magazine, the late great Claude Bessy, was the dude who did the intro. 

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Niners Fan in CT

Niners Fan in CT

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20 hours ago, Go2Sleep said:

In 1997, they literally had a PPV called "Final Four" the month after the Rumble. It became more of a trope during the 2000s, especially as WWE started doing their counting stats hype videos for the Rumble every year.

of course... one of my fave matches EVER...  so great.  

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The Natural

The Natural

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16 minutes ago, (BP) said:

Spring Stampede 94 is a must-watch, but I’d recommend Spring Stampede 99 as well. It’s fun as hell. 

WCW's last great show, WCW Spring Stampede 1999. I bought the VHS release and still have it to this day even without a VCR player.

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Lawful Metal

Lawful Metal

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I think I'm going to go with Flair / Funk I Quit from Clash of the Champs NY Knockout and Bret / Benoit from 10-4-99.  If we can squeeze in another, I will, probably a Shawn Michaels match.  I've shown him Bret / Austin, but maybe it's worth it to reconsider.

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