January 2022 Discussion of Wrestling

[Technico Support]

3 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

G-Raver's lawyer was Pittsburgh indy wrestler David Lawless. He does a corrupt lawyer gimmick but he's also a shoot lawyer.

Professional motherfucking wrestling, everybody.  Just the absolute best.  Love it.

2 hours ago, Tarheel Moneghetti said:

On the one hand, I can believe Vince nudged Fox execs into killing MLW's streaming deal.  On the other hand, why would he bother?  

Because his pettiness knows no bounds.

2 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

SRS is reporting that Corey Graves has been cleared for in-ring action after 7 years away.  

So, who gets to be the first one to beat the fuck out of him?   

It's amazing to me that We Have CM Punk at Home un-retires shortly after the genuine article did.  Just crazy timing.

39 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Piper is such a weird comparison that he himself has made because Piper never had the greatest grasp of simple phrases, and would get lost in what he was saying all the time. Even at his best.

Piper had a longtime collaborator in the promo department that granted him superhuman charisma and rendered his incomprehensibility a non-issue.  You may know him as the assistant screenwriter behind No Holds Barred.  That collaborator's name was Cocaine. 

[Cobra Commander]

extra Superbrawl 93 notes

1) RnR vs Bodies was a hell of a showcase match for those teams and all the stuff they've been doing in some form for about 9 years before that match. I haven't seen the Survivor Series match in awhile but i'm pretty confident that the Superbrawl match smokes it partly because of the crowd

2) there's a lull between RnR/Bodies and the main event. Maxx Payne might be up there for guys whose careers should have been much better (although some of that might have been due to Maxx himself). Ric Flair is back and looking like Ric Flair, and he gets to experience a Muta/Windham match that was a bit underwhelming, either in general or compared to the rest of the card

3) the strap match blood didn't get really crazy until the accidental earblading. It seems like every story involving Harley blading someone/making someone bleed on the outside makes Harley seem like a nutjob

[Elsalvajeloco]

40 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

extra Superbrawl 93 notes

1) RnR vs Bodies was a hell of a showcase match for those teams and all the stuff they've been doing in some form for about 9 years before that match. I haven't seen the Survivor Series match in awhile but i'm pretty confident that the Superbrawl match smokes it partly because of the crowd

I watched Survivor Series 1993 last year since it was forever since I had seen it. Between that show and Fall Brawl 1993 two months earlier in front of like a 1/3 full 7,000 seat arena in Houston, I cannot think of two other shows for respective rival promotions that were an indictment on the state of U.S. wrestling like that. Just two downright awful shows with so little starpower. 

And as far as Rock n Roll Express vs. the Heavenly Bodies goes, Boston was just a terrible place for that type of match in the middle of a very pedestrian show already. They might as well been wrestling in front of a bunch of cadavers at a morgue. That's how much response it got from the crowd. IIRC they worked harder in the match in November but the fan response is probably why. 

I think the reason Cornette holds a grudge against Eric about their little riff (other than the bizarre stuff with Ole's son and Cornette being Cornette) is the SMW stuff was never going to get over with WWF crowd like it did and would in WCW even with the RnR well past their expiration date in terms of freshness. If you notice, the WCW crowds around that time for every major PPV especially in the South, the front rows would always be older people that likely were around for the heyday of Mid-Atlantic, Georgia Championship Wrestling, etc. It didn't start to change until later in the Nitro era where it was a bunch of 18-34 year old assholes carrying stupid signs. So the crowd in Asheville was ready for all that. In Boston, it was like a prelim dark match you would film for Action Zone or a random Coliseum video release. Then you have the weird shit of them switching commentary teams mid show (WWF Radio w/ Gorilla and now in Vince's doghouse Jim Ross). It was a bad situation all around.

[Cobra Commander]

An extended WCW/SMW relationship probably would have been great business for Cornette (especially if he could get Ric Flair on the card) and reasonably good for WCW developing some of their guys or getting guys off of TV when necessary. So if Cornette can keep blaming the OJ Chase for losing money at the house in June 1994, imagine what he thinks about events that kept him from maybe getting Ric Flair in 1993.

Not sure if Smoky Mountain would have been down for featuring much of the talent that made Crystal Chandelier shows in late 1993 (Jim Steele, The Gambler, Buddy Lee Parker, Bobby Walker, Lighting, Big Bad John, Shanghai Pierce, Tex Slazenger, Keith Cole, Thunder, Bryan Anderson, Mike Winner)... he probably would have preferred getting dates on "old" (34 year old) Michael Hayes instead of most WCW power plant guys

[odessasteps]

If the lower card guys were cheaper and could drive in from Atlanta/Charlotte, they'd prob be good hands. 

[Cobra Commander]

one could imagine the Buff/Judy Bagwell stories that Cornette could have had if Marcus Alexander Bagwell got some SMW work in 1993

but there's probably a few people on SuperBrawl 93 who did not benefit from Watts getting bounced in the leadup to the show. Chris Benoit, you almost got a time limit draw with Scorpio? cya in 2 1/2 years!

[Boydy]

I know this will not happen but let's say MLW wins the case against WWE. What will happen?
What sanctions will be put in place to stop WWE monopolizing wrestling and does this affece AEW as well who have more wrestlers then WWE in the last few years.

Would MLW have a case to say the same about AEW?

 

[Cobra Commander]

I'd think that Court Bauer would end up with some "go away" money before the lawsuit ends up in an actual loss for the WWE.

Unless the WWE had an explicit deal with FOX that barred Fox entities from airing non-WWE promotions. In that case, whoever is the current Jerry McDevitt will tell MLW to pound sand. The whole Tubi thing isn't exactly the same as WWF knocking ECW off of TNN (and ECW not wanting to stay on TNN after all that) but when it comes to possibly illegal antitrust things done by the WWE, they've done far worse.

[Elsalvajeloco]

11 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

I'd think that Court Bauer would end up with some "go away" money before the lawsuit ends up in an actual loss for the WWE.

Unless the WWE had an explicit deal with FOX that barred Fox entities from airing non-WWE promotions. In that case, whoever is the current Jerry McDevitt will tell MLW to pound sand. The whole Tubi thing isn't exactly the same as WWF knocking ECW off of TNN (and ECW not wanting to stay on TNN after all that) but when it comes to possibly illegal antitrust things done by the WWE, they've done far worse.

If you're going to class action lawsuit route, "go away" money isn't happening. It's either going to get dismissed or go to trial. There might be some arbitration, but I doubt it based on WWE's track record.

It might not carry a substantial weight, but it doesn't sound as absurd as the Konstantine Kyros lawsuits. They didn't even need McDevitt on that. They could have had Joe Pesci's character from My Cousin Vinny. Hell, they could have used Joe Pesci. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

17 minutes ago, L_W_P said:

Vader was always Sting's best opponent and vice versa

Right*, and what made it work is Sting knew that Leon could get reckless in the ring. Instead of going to the office like Shawn did in 1996, he just brought it back to Leon as hard as Leon did to him. As a result, it made Sting look like an utter superhero.

And that's why the guy is still a top star thirty years later.

*tied with Flair to be fair because Sting and Flair by the mid 90s could have a ***+ match in the dark

[Cobra Commander]

Vader probably would have been far better off if he his first WWF title program was against Bret instead of Shawn

Also would have been better off if he wasn't injured when he came into the WWF and if he hadn't worked a program with Hogan for most of the year before leaving WCW.

[Elsalvajeloco]

23 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Vader probably would have been far better off if he his first WWF title program was against Bret instead of Shawn

Also would have been better off if he wasn't injured when he came into the WWF and if he hadn't worked a program with Hogan for most of the year before leaving WCW.

You might very well be right, but based on what Prichard and Ross have said in recent years about Vader, it seems the baggage he came with on the way to WWF would always be held against him (this goes especially in the presence of the Kliq).

When you're dealing with a high maintenance type of guy and one that is calm one day and an absolute monster the next (based on what everyone has said about him), he could be his own worst enemy. And I'm saying that as someone who totally thinks what Shawn did as absolute bullshit.

When someone brought up here the best live events they've been to and one was the IYH in Richmond, VA w/ Taker vs. Austin, Vader vs. Ken Shamrock just so happen to be on the same card. That match itself is kinda funky, but when Ken starts tearing into Vader with stiff offense after some back-and-forth, Leon rolls to the outside for a brief reprieve and audibly says, "Ease up...ease up". That's the story of Leon White at that point of his career. He can beat the shit out of you, BUT you cannot beat the shit out of him. He was a front running bully. 

I think just like Luger, Paul Wight, and others, WCW was always going to use Vader better than what Vince could. After Flair had left/got fired in 1991, they needed a guy like Vader. He was something special. By the time he got to WWF, Vince wanted him to be "The Mastodon" but they ended up settling on just using that as one of his nicknames. He was never going to be what Vince wanted him to be with Vince's wild fucking imagination. More importantly, Leon White's attitude, overall split personality, and general declining work ethic (not to mention, never washing his gear) wasn't going to allow it. It's good he had his cup of tea in WWF for his overall legacy, but the only places where he could be Vader is pre Hogan WCW and places like Japan, Mexico, and Europe where he was a special attraction. That's the sad truth.

[Cobra Commander]

another "what if" for Vader might involve Harley Race's car accident in January 1995. Even if WCW might have moved away from Race if he was available, he was a better fit for Vader on-screen and possibly off-screen, than Cornette. Vader might have needed Harley as his travel buddy/manager to be a filter between Vader and management/other wrestlers

Harley as a manager sorta comes off as a mix between an old coach and someone who perpetually smells of beer/cigarettes

[JLowe]

30 minutes ago, L_W_P said:

I mean I grew up in the ‘80s and once we got cable and I was able to watch the daily territorial shows on ESPN, I thought WWF was cartoon bullshit, although I did love Ricky Steamboat and the British Bulldogs. But compared to the Von Erichs, the Freebirds, the Horsemen, etc...those definitely felt more real. I remember seeing the Dingo Warrior before he became an Ultimate, a skinny Curt Hennig, the Midnight Rockers, the Sheepherders when they were scary bloodthirsty heels...

 

edit to add: living in NYC I also got the MSG channel, so I could watch those mid and late WWF 80s MSG house shows and those were usually pretty good since it was just wrestling with a minimum amount of mic time.

Edited January 13, 2022 by JLowe

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

7 hours ago, AxB said:

A random comment on the AEW Discord "AEW's Women's division won't get over until they sign a woman who is an MJF-level promo" got me wondering, has there ever been a female WRESTLER (not manager) who was an MJF level promo? Who are the best talkers in (English speaking) Women's Wrestling history?

 

[Ziggy]

14 minutes ago, L_W_P said:

Good topic for conversation actually - How did you all perceive WWF vs WCW growing up? Did having access to one or the other make you appreciate a certain style more?

I wonder how kids these days are with the differences between WWE and AEW.

I was more of a WWF guy starting out. Before I knew about WCW I grew up watching WrestleMania 8 before I got obsessed with Wrestling at 8 years old in late 95/early 96. I didn't get cable till 97 so I only got to see the syndicated shows. So when I got obsessed with Wrestling I got to see WCW more often because of World Wide. WCW had more variety of styles, you had Regal,  Taylor,  psychosis. All these different types of technical wrestlers, Luchadors, people from New Japan. Although people like Bret,  Undertaker and Shawn was already household names to me because my brother was already watching WWF before I got obsessed with Wrestling. I think WCW spoke to the workrate part of my brain more. Even though WWF had a much better main event picture. Even in the Russo era of the Attitude era. When I did get cable in early 97 I spent more time watching WCW, Saturday night,  Pro , Nitro, World Wide, and then Thunder. By Spring 99. The only WCW programming I'd be watching was World Wide. 

I'd Imagine AEW is alot like WCW in a sense that they seem to book their Ramage show different from the Dynamite show which is good.

[Cobra Commander]

as for perceptions, I mean, I can only relay which guys seemed over among 7th graders or people in my neighborhood in 1998. DDP was pretty over among some of the possibly redneckier types in my area (sure DDP is from Jersey but.. never mind that)

also there are more people of "Polynesian" (Samoan) background in my area so when the Rock was getting over everywhere, he was also really over among Samoans in my area. Like the time in an 8th grade assembly where some Samoan dudes did a version of a Haka where one of them did the "Smell what the Rock is cooking" turnbuckle motion was something that people figured out was a reference to the Rock.

One of my friends claimed that someone in his neighborhood was a relative of the Rock and that the Rock would come by that house when the WWF was in town. Which could be some claim made up by someone he knew, or it could have been true considering massive Samoan families.

[odessasteps]

It certainly seems like all the Samoans in the biz (exceptJoe) claim to be related or at 

Least consider themselves related. 

[DreamBroken]

9 hours ago, AxB said:

A random comment on the AEW Discord "AEW's Women's division won't get over until they sign a woman who is an MJF-level promo" got me wondering, has there ever been a female WRESTLER (not manager) who was an MJF level promo? Who are the best talkers in (English speaking) Women's Wrestling history?

Alexa Bliss 2016-17 is my personal favorite.

One of the first to come to mind for me was Madison Eagles, who was on fire during her SHIMMER run and just exuded charisma.

On the Impact side of things, I think Madison Rayne was doing excellent heel mic work 10 years ago, and more recently I think Tessa Blanchard could've reached that type of level if her career hadn't stalled when it did.

 

[thee Reverend Axl Future]

7 hours ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Piper is such a weird comparison that he himself has made because Piper never had the greatest grasp of simple phrases, and would get lost in what he was saying all the time. Even at his best.

I agree, but some would argue that Piper's peak was way back in LA w/the LaBells and his Oregon jaunts, or his Georgia/Mid Atlantic era of commentary'n'rassling. He certainly got more spotlight in that early Hogan WWF time, and even as an established vet for all his later comebacks, but (for me, at least) it was those videos I saw of Oregon/Mid Atlantic/his short stay in CWF. That said, that first year of Piper's Pits changed young RAF's life.

[Shane]

3 hours ago, L_W_P said:

Good topic for conversation actually - How did you all perceive WWF vs WCW growing up? Did having access to one or the other make you appreciate a certain style more?

This is one of those times I’m actually glad to be so friggin’ old. The sheer breadth of wrestling available to me on basic ass tv when I was like 10 definitely shaped me as a fan. WWF was omnipresent, but everything else I was watching was, at least to me at that age, so much more REAL. It wasn’t even necessarily NWA for me. I was immediately all in on World Class and, soon after, Watts’ UWF. 

Honestly, it’s probably why I was mostly into WWF heels, because at least they had a tiny bit of grit. The only WWF babyfaces I really remember latching onto in the mid-80s were Barry Windham and Tito Santana. I was probably a far more traditional “cheer the faces” sort of kid elsewhere, though. 

[zendragon]

18 hours ago, AxB said:

A random comment on the AEW Discord "AEW's Women's division won't get over until they sign a woman who is an MJF-level promo" got me wondering, has there ever been a female WRESTLER (not manager) who was an MJF level promo? Who are the best talkers in (English speaking) Women's Wrestling history?

Currently Britt Baker, Historicly Sherry or Trish

[cwoy2j]

13 hours ago, L_W_P said:

Good topic for conversation actually - How did you all perceive WWF vs WCW growing up? Did having access to one or the other make you appreciate a certain style more?

I wonder how kids these days are with the differences between WWE and AEW.

I grew up in the 80s so it was more JCP vs. WWF. I'm from Virginia and we didn't have cable when I was a kid so the only WWF I got to see was Superstars on Sunday morning and the occasional times I stayed up late and watched Saturday Night's Main Event. I got two NWA shows every Saturday, one at noon and one at like 11:30pm or so (and this was back in the days when channels would stop at a certain time!) and my uncle would record the TBS shows and Clashes for me b/c he had cable. I was a big Apter mag reader too. The WWF never came to Charlottesville but the NWA would come here twice a year or so and they were in Richmond more often than that so I'd go to at least one NWA show every year as a kid.

So anyway, I was a big NWA supporter. Even though I was only 7 in 1986, I pretty much knew what was going on with wrestling (retired wrestler Abe Jacobs spoiled it for me when I visited Ricky Steamboat's gym in Charlotte but that's a story for another day). That said, I thought the NWA seemed more authentic because their guys looked more like regular tough guys than the jacked up muscle guys in the WWF. I was firmly in the camp that Flair would wipe the floor with Hogan because he knew more "techniques" and was a better "scientific wrestler" and he wasn't stupid like the WWF rulebreakers who would sit there and stupidly hit Hogan during the Hulk-Up. I thought the WWF was "fake" because it was all bright, there were animals, a bunch of fat wrestlers who didn't know any "techniques" (yeah, I know Dusty Rhodes is fat and I didn't like him but at least he's tough and he knows how to put on a figure four) and all of Hogan's matches ended the same way. Plus there was hardly any blood! How can you tell 6 year old me that on one show, Ric Flair gets rammed into a cage and he's bleeding like a stuck pig but these losers in the WWF do and there's nothing?! Plus what's up with those stupid big blue bars? That's not a cage!

Long story short, I thought the WWF was pretty hokey and that while wrestling might not be on the up and up, the NWA was more "real" (whatever that meant to 6-7 year old me). I definitely was not the kid that Vince McMahon was marketing to then. I'm sure he didn't lose any sleep over that though as we all know, there were millions of others who were.

Edited January 13, 2022 by cwoy2j

[AxB]

I grew up on World of Sport wrestling. The first time I saw WWF wrestling I thought it was some sort of a parody. A bad, unfunny joke.

[Technico Support]

A lot like @cwoy2jI grew up in the mid atlantic (Baltimore) and had similar wrestling experiences.  I didn't get cable until I was maybe 14 or 15.  I started watching WWF in 85 in the ramp-up to Mania 1, so I would have been 10.  I got into JCP shortly after that, like maybe a year later, because a friend of mine and his mom loved it.  He had a plastic mug with Magnum TA on it and I had no idea who he was.  Thus my Southern rasslin' education began!  

So TV-wise, without cable, I watched Superstars Saturdays at 11:30pm on channel 11, which was Baltimore's CBS affiliate at the time, and Challenge Saturdays at 4 on UHF channel 45, which is now the Fox affiliate and owned by Sinclair!  Crockett was on in syndication Saturdays and Sundays, on the same station, independent UHF channel 54 which I think is also Sinclair now, at noon.  At some point, at least for a little while, Watts' UWF aired at 3pm on Saturdays on the same station as Challenge.  Always looked forward to Saturday Night's Main Event.

I probably liked Crockett a little more then WWF.  It was grittier and more realistic.  I remember wishing we had front row seats at The Bunkhouse Stampede but my mark friend retorted, "Well what if someone gets it with a 2x4 and flies into our laps?!?!"  Amazing.  

I, too grew up on the Apter mags and, in a pinch, the second tier stuff like Main Event and Wrestling Eye.

So yeah, to summarize: I'm old, grew up on the big 2 in syndication in Baltimore, like Crockett slightly more.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Technico Support