January 2022 Discussion of Wrestling

[Elsalvajeloco]

8 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

I think I’m either there, or near there. She just had the spot with Debra that she fucked up twice on. 

Oh, going back watching some of these Nitros, she was out of position on some things. Unless it was something like on PPV where the Heat were against the Nasty Boys or Public Enemy in a stipulation match were her main purpose was to be physically involved for the whole match, she was basically pretty much useless. When she would come out with the big shades on and be in almost this catatonic state, it was very clear she was on borrowed time. Your one job is to just be a wrestling manager and be a heel, and you're too out of it to even do that.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Piper is such a weird comparison that he himself has made because Piper never had the greatest grasp of simple phrases, and would get lost in what he was saying all the time. Even at his best.

[Cobra Commander]

this probably isn't the best defense for the WWE in their lawsuit but how much is MLW's case impacted by a bunch of other non-WWE/AEW feds getting some some of streaming ability (for example, PlutoTV has 20 million more users than Tubi). Wonder how Tubi's payouts compare to PlutoTV or Twitch or IWTV or anywhere else that could stream pro wrestling

[Cobra Commander]

I'm watching Superbrawl 1993 for the first time today (it was not among the PPVs that were my Blockbuster/Movie Gallery in 1998) and..

1) we all probably know this by now but Scorpio rules. I'm not sure how much changes if he came along a few years later when a bunch of other guys could be doing similar things in US promotions but when promotions used those guys better

2) Cactus vs Orndorff is a clinic of Foley taking insane looking bumps on the floor. "One of these guys is gonna be out of wrestling in 3 years, and it's not the guy doing a stupid sunset flip onto the exposed concrete floor"

[Elsalvajeloco]

51 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

I'm watching Superbrawl 1993 for the first time today (it was not among the PPVs that were my Blockbuster/Movie Gallery in 1998) and..

1) we all probably know this by now but Scorpio rules. I'm not sure how much changes if he came along a few years later when a bunch of other guys could be doing similar things in US promotions but when promotions used those guys better

2) Cactus vs Orndorff is a clinic of Foley taking insane looking bumps on the floor. "One of these guys is gonna be out of wrestling in 3 years, and it's not the guy doing a stupid sunset flip onto the exposed concrete floor"

And that's not even the most insane shit on the show. Steve Borden and Leon White decided they were going to kill each other (well Sting probably should have been convicted of attempted murder at the end) in the main event. Harley blading Vader's massive ass back was something as well.

I know everyone loves Flair vs. Steamboat, but between GAB 92, Starrcade 1992, SuperBrawl 1993, and the match at Fall Brawl 1994, you cannot say that isn't a top 5 pro wrestling feud on match quality alone at the major shows. Everytime they were in there, it was a fucking spectacle. 

[Technico Support]

3 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

G-Raver's lawyer was Pittsburgh indy wrestler David Lawless. He does a corrupt lawyer gimmick but he's also a shoot lawyer.

Professional motherfucking wrestling, everybody.  Just the absolute best.  Love it.

2 hours ago, Tarheel Moneghetti said:

On the one hand, I can believe Vince nudged Fox execs into killing MLW's streaming deal.  On the other hand, why would he bother?  

Because his pettiness knows no bounds.

2 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

SRS is reporting that Corey Graves has been cleared for in-ring action after 7 years away.  

So, who gets to be the first one to beat the fuck out of him?   

It's amazing to me that We Have CM Punk at Home un-retires shortly after the genuine article did.  Just crazy timing.

39 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Piper is such a weird comparison that he himself has made because Piper never had the greatest grasp of simple phrases, and would get lost in what he was saying all the time. Even at his best.

Piper had a longtime collaborator in the promo department that granted him superhuman charisma and rendered his incomprehensibility a non-issue.  You may know him as the assistant screenwriter behind No Holds Barred.  That collaborator's name was Cocaine. 

[Cobra Commander]

extra Superbrawl 93 notes

1) RnR vs Bodies was a hell of a showcase match for those teams and all the stuff they've been doing in some form for about 9 years before that match. I haven't seen the Survivor Series match in awhile but i'm pretty confident that the Superbrawl match smokes it partly because of the crowd

2) there's a lull between RnR/Bodies and the main event. Maxx Payne might be up there for guys whose careers should have been much better (although some of that might have been due to Maxx himself). Ric Flair is back and looking like Ric Flair, and he gets to experience a Muta/Windham match that was a bit underwhelming, either in general or compared to the rest of the card

3) the strap match blood didn't get really crazy until the accidental earblading. It seems like every story involving Harley blading someone/making someone bleed on the outside makes Harley seem like a nutjob

[Elsalvajeloco]

40 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

extra Superbrawl 93 notes

1) RnR vs Bodies was a hell of a showcase match for those teams and all the stuff they've been doing in some form for about 9 years before that match. I haven't seen the Survivor Series match in awhile but i'm pretty confident that the Superbrawl match smokes it partly because of the crowd

I watched Survivor Series 1993 last year since it was forever since I had seen it. Between that show and Fall Brawl 1993 two months earlier in front of like a 1/3 full 7,000 seat arena in Houston, I cannot think of two other shows for respective rival promotions that were an indictment on the state of U.S. wrestling like that. Just two downright awful shows with so little starpower. 

And as far as Rock n Roll Express vs. the Heavenly Bodies goes, Boston was just a terrible place for that type of match in the middle of a very pedestrian show already. They might as well been wrestling in front of a bunch of cadavers at a morgue. That's how much response it got from the crowd. IIRC they worked harder in the match in November but the fan response is probably why. 

I think the reason Cornette holds a grudge against Eric about their little riff (other than the bizarre stuff with Ole's son and Cornette being Cornette) is the SMW stuff was never going to get over with WWF crowd like it did and would in WCW even with the RnR well past their expiration date in terms of freshness. If you notice, the WCW crowds around that time for every major PPV especially in the South, the front rows would always be older people that likely were around for the heyday of Mid-Atlantic, Georgia Championship Wrestling, etc. It didn't start to change until later in the Nitro era where it was a bunch of 18-34 year old assholes carrying stupid signs. So the crowd in Asheville was ready for all that. In Boston, it was like a prelim dark match you would film for Action Zone or a random Coliseum video release. Then you have the weird shit of them switching commentary teams mid show (WWF Radio w/ Gorilla and now in Vince's doghouse Jim Ross). It was a bad situation all around.

[Cobra Commander]

An extended WCW/SMW relationship probably would have been great business for Cornette (especially if he could get Ric Flair on the card) and reasonably good for WCW developing some of their guys or getting guys off of TV when necessary. So if Cornette can keep blaming the OJ Chase for losing money at the house in June 1994, imagine what he thinks about events that kept him from maybe getting Ric Flair in 1993.

Not sure if Smoky Mountain would have been down for featuring much of the talent that made Crystal Chandelier shows in late 1993 (Jim Steele, The Gambler, Buddy Lee Parker, Bobby Walker, Lighting, Big Bad John, Shanghai Pierce, Tex Slazenger, Keith Cole, Thunder, Bryan Anderson, Mike Winner)... he probably would have preferred getting dates on "old" (34 year old) Michael Hayes instead of most WCW power plant guys

[odessasteps]

If the lower card guys were cheaper and could drive in from Atlanta/Charlotte, they'd prob be good hands. 

[Cobra Commander]

one could imagine the Buff/Judy Bagwell stories that Cornette could have had if Marcus Alexander Bagwell got some SMW work in 1993

but there's probably a few people on SuperBrawl 93 who did not benefit from Watts getting bounced in the leadup to the show. Chris Benoit, you almost got a time limit draw with Scorpio? cya in 2 1/2 years!

[Boydy]

I know this will not happen but let's say MLW wins the case against WWE. What will happen?
What sanctions will be put in place to stop WWE monopolizing wrestling and does this affece AEW as well who have more wrestlers then WWE in the last few years.

Would MLW have a case to say the same about AEW?

 

[Cobra Commander]

I'd think that Court Bauer would end up with some "go away" money before the lawsuit ends up in an actual loss for the WWE.

Unless the WWE had an explicit deal with FOX that barred Fox entities from airing non-WWE promotions. In that case, whoever is the current Jerry McDevitt will tell MLW to pound sand. The whole Tubi thing isn't exactly the same as WWF knocking ECW off of TNN (and ECW not wanting to stay on TNN after all that) but when it comes to possibly illegal antitrust things done by the WWE, they've done far worse.

[L_W_P]

3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

And that's not even the most insane shit on the show. Steve Borden and Leon White decided they were going to kill each other (well Sting probably should have been convicted of attempted murder at the end) in the main event. Harley blading Vader's massive ass back was something as well.

I know everyone loves Flair vs. Steamboat, but between GAB 92, Starrcade 1992, SuperBrawl 1993, and the match at Fall Brawl 1994, you cannot say that isn't a top 5 pro wrestling feud on match quality alone at the major shows. Everytime they were in there, it was a fucking spectacle. 

Vader was always Sting's best opponent and vice versa

[Elsalvajeloco]

11 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

I'd think that Court Bauer would end up with some "go away" money before the lawsuit ends up in an actual loss for the WWE.

Unless the WWE had an explicit deal with FOX that barred Fox entities from airing non-WWE promotions. In that case, whoever is the current Jerry McDevitt will tell MLW to pound sand. The whole Tubi thing isn't exactly the same as WWF knocking ECW off of TNN (and ECW not wanting to stay on TNN after all that) but when it comes to possibly illegal antitrust things done by the WWE, they've done far worse.

If you're going to class action lawsuit route, "go away" money isn't happening. It's either going to get dismissed or go to trial. There might be some arbitration, but I doubt it based on WWE's track record.

It might not carry a substantial weight, but it doesn't sound as absurd as the Konstantine Kyros lawsuits. They didn't even need McDevitt on that. They could have had Joe Pesci's character from My Cousin Vinny. Hell, they could have used Joe Pesci. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

17 minutes ago, L_W_P said:

Vader was always Sting's best opponent and vice versa

Right*, and what made it work is Sting knew that Leon could get reckless in the ring. Instead of going to the office like Shawn did in 1996, he just brought it back to Leon as hard as Leon did to him. As a result, it made Sting look like an utter superhero.

And that's why the guy is still a top star thirty years later.

*tied with Flair to be fair because Sting and Flair by the mid 90s could have a ***+ match in the dark

[Cobra Commander]

Vader probably would have been far better off if he his first WWF title program was against Bret instead of Shawn

Also would have been better off if he wasn't injured when he came into the WWF and if he hadn't worked a program with Hogan for most of the year before leaving WCW.

[Elsalvajeloco]

23 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Vader probably would have been far better off if he his first WWF title program was against Bret instead of Shawn

Also would have been better off if he wasn't injured when he came into the WWF and if he hadn't worked a program with Hogan for most of the year before leaving WCW.

You might very well be right, but based on what Prichard and Ross have said in recent years about Vader, it seems the baggage he came with on the way to WWF would always be held against him (this goes especially in the presence of the Kliq).

When you're dealing with a high maintenance type of guy and one that is calm one day and an absolute monster the next (based on what everyone has said about him), he could be his own worst enemy. And I'm saying that as someone who totally thinks what Shawn did as absolute bullshit.

When someone brought up here the best live events they've been to and one was the IYH in Richmond, VA w/ Taker vs. Austin, Vader vs. Ken Shamrock just so happen to be on the same card. That match itself is kinda funky, but when Ken starts tearing into Vader with stiff offense after some back-and-forth, Leon rolls to the outside for a brief reprieve and audibly says, "Ease up...ease up". That's the story of Leon White at that point of his career. He can beat the shit out of you, BUT you cannot beat the shit out of him. He was a front running bully. 

I think just like Luger, Paul Wight, and others, WCW was always going to use Vader better than what Vince could. After Flair had left/got fired in 1991, they needed a guy like Vader. He was something special. By the time he got to WWF, Vince wanted him to be "The Mastodon" but they ended up settling on just using that as one of his nicknames. He was never going to be what Vince wanted him to be with Vince's wild fucking imagination. More importantly, Leon White's attitude, overall split personality, and general declining work ethic (not to mention, never washing his gear) wasn't going to allow it. It's good he had his cup of tea in WWF for his overall legacy, but the only places where he could be Vader is pre Hogan WCW and places like Japan, Mexico, and Europe where he was a special attraction. That's the sad truth.

[L_W_P]

23 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Vader probably would have been far better off if he his first WWF title program was against Bret instead of Shawn

Also would have been better off if he wasn't injured when he came into the WWF and if he hadn't worked a program with Hogan for most of the year before leaving WCW.

As a kid I saw way more WWF because that's what the video store had more of. It was on free TV as well so we all talked about it at school. So even though I fell in love with Vader from watching old WWF tapes, he was always a 'wcw' guy in my head

When I watched a WCW show though it just felt... raw. It felt way more real.

WWF to me was clean, well executed. It felt like it leaned into the 'Sports Entertainment' side, even though I didn't really get that at the time. Late 80's/early 90's WCW had moments where I honestly thought people were trying to hurt each other. Guys like Vader, Sid, Road Warriors... It just felt like they DGAF and were happy to cripple someone if it meant getting a title match sooner.

Even the ring looked like it hurt more to get slammed in.

When guys like Benoit, Malenko and Saturn started popping up it blew my mind. These guys were SHOOT fighting to my teenage brain. Suplexs and stretches and all sorts of variations on trying to wear people down. That was amazing to me. WWF didn't have this. This was WRESTLING!

Good topic for conversation actually - How did you all perceive WWF vs WCW growing up? Did having access to one or the other make you appreciate a certain style more?

I wonder how kids these days are with the differences between WWE and AEW.

Edited January 13, 2022 by L_W_P

[Cobra Commander]

another "what if" for Vader might involve Harley Race's car accident in January 1995. Even if WCW might have moved away from Race if he was available, he was a better fit for Vader on-screen and possibly off-screen, than Cornette. Vader might have needed Harley as his travel buddy/manager to be a filter between Vader and management/other wrestlers

Harley as a manager sorta comes off as a mix between an old coach and someone who perpetually smells of beer/cigarettes

[JLowe]

30 minutes ago, L_W_P said:

I mean I grew up in the ‘80s and once we got cable and I was able to watch the daily territorial shows on ESPN, I thought WWF was cartoon bullshit, although I did love Ricky Steamboat and the British Bulldogs. But compared to the Von Erichs, the Freebirds, the Horsemen, etc...those definitely felt more real. I remember seeing the Dingo Warrior before he became an Ultimate, a skinny Curt Hennig, the Midnight Rockers, the Sheepherders when they were scary bloodthirsty heels...

 

edit to add: living in NYC I also got the MSG channel, so I could watch those mid and late WWF 80s MSG house shows and those were usually pretty good since it was just wrestling with a minimum amount of mic time.

Edited January 13, 2022 by JLowe

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

7 hours ago, AxB said:

A random comment on the AEW Discord "AEW's Women's division won't get over until they sign a woman who is an MJF-level promo" got me wondering, has there ever been a female WRESTLER (not manager) who was an MJF level promo? Who are the best talkers in (English speaking) Women's Wrestling history?

 

[Ziggy]

14 minutes ago, L_W_P said:

Good topic for conversation actually - How did you all perceive WWF vs WCW growing up? Did having access to one or the other make you appreciate a certain style more?

I wonder how kids these days are with the differences between WWE and AEW.

I was more of a WWF guy starting out. Before I knew about WCW I grew up watching WrestleMania 8 before I got obsessed with Wrestling at 8 years old in late 95/early 96. I didn't get cable till 97 so I only got to see the syndicated shows. So when I got obsessed with Wrestling I got to see WCW more often because of World Wide. WCW had more variety of styles, you had Regal,  Taylor,  psychosis. All these different types of technical wrestlers, Luchadors, people from New Japan. Although people like Bret,  Undertaker and Shawn was already household names to me because my brother was already watching WWF before I got obsessed with Wrestling. I think WCW spoke to the workrate part of my brain more. Even though WWF had a much better main event picture. Even in the Russo era of the Attitude era. When I did get cable in early 97 I spent more time watching WCW, Saturday night,  Pro , Nitro, World Wide, and then Thunder. By Spring 99. The only WCW programming I'd be watching was World Wide. 

I'd Imagine AEW is alot like WCW in a sense that they seem to book their Ramage show different from the Dynamite show which is good.

[Cobra Commander]

as for perceptions, I mean, I can only relay which guys seemed over among 7th graders or people in my neighborhood in 1998. DDP was pretty over among some of the possibly redneckier types in my area (sure DDP is from Jersey but.. never mind that)

also there are more people of "Polynesian" (Samoan) background in my area so when the Rock was getting over everywhere, he was also really over among Samoans in my area. Like the time in an 8th grade assembly where some Samoan dudes did a version of a Haka where one of them did the "Smell what the Rock is cooking" turnbuckle motion was something that people figured out was a reference to the Rock.

One of my friends claimed that someone in his neighborhood was a relative of the Rock and that the Rock would come by that house when the WWF was in town. Which could be some claim made up by someone he knew, or it could have been true considering massive Samoan families.

[odessasteps]

It certainly seems like all the Samoans in the biz (exceptJoe) claim to be related or at 

Least consider themselves related.